What do you think Jakob could do in the 800m if he dedicated to it for a year? That's what Aouita did in 88.
Compare with Ovett, a clean runner winning 800 gold and setting a WR in the two miles, and a Commonwealth 5000m gold where he destroyed the guy who easily won the Europeans a few weeks later.
His 2 Miles was worth around 7:40 (WR 7:32.1). He "destroyed" a guy who "easily" won the Europeans - yeah, for sure. The race at the Europeans was a fast one, therefore Ovett didn't finish, just too fast for him. In slow races he could often use his strong finish for a win, but a fast pace always destroyed him.
So when he defeated Rono in 1978 (the year Rono set 3 WRs) while breaking the 2 mile world record, why didn't the fast pace destroy him?
His 2 Miles was worth around 7:40 (WR 7:32.1). He "destroyed" a guy who "easily" won the Europeans - yeah, for sure. The race at the Europeans was a fast one, therefore Ovett didn't finish, just too fast for him. In slow races he could often use his strong finish for a win, but a fast pace always destroyed him.
So when he defeated Rono in 1978 (the year Rono set 3 WRs) while breaking the 2 mile world record, why didn't the fast pace destroy him?
As said, worth around 7:40 (WR 7:32.1 at the time).
I know that Jakob has not finished his career and he very well may run a 5k or 1500 record one day...but as of now, who is the better runner?
I say Jakob due to 1500m + 5000m Olympic Gold but he also hasn't set the 1500m or 5000m record. Aouita set a WR in every event from 1500m to 5000m other than the mile. SO who would you argue is better and why?
Also, Passant, don't ruin this thread by explaining how Aouita was a product of himself and poverty, Idc.
Well the better runner is Jakob - he's run markedly faster over all their comparable distances except the 800m and even while he won't ever run 1.43.8 like Aouita, I doubt we will ever see an official 800m that really reflects his potential.
But these types of questions are why I have always made a distinction better "best" and "greatest" because while Jakob is better, is he a greater all round runner than Aouita? Not sure. Greatness to me is the nuanced "measure" and brings in things like context and relativity to the era. All of Aouitas PR's are by todays standards good but not exceptional (he sits 31st all-time in the 1500, 10th in the mile - though this is more a function of how much less the mile is run in big meets than it was in his era, 45th in the 3000 and 112th in the 5000m) - but of course at the time almost all of his bests were the yardstick for humankind as they were the WR's.
I think the big mistake we make when historically comparing athletes in all sports is simply transplanting those from the past into todays landscape but still viewing their performances and abilities from those of the past. Like people who say Jack Nicklaus would get smoked by todays crop of pros or Bill Russell was great in the 60's but put him in todays game and he wouldn't stack up. Sure there is a cut-off where this concept applies (like is Jack Lovelock really running sub 3.30 if he were around today?) but Aouita was definitely a talent that would clearly translate and elevate accordingly to the modern era.
I think the "who is greater" question is very close, but I think it's Aouita. WR's in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m including holding the 15-5 combo for 5 years. The 800+5000m medal combo from the Olympics is such a weird one to contextualize in terms of importance but it is incredible at the same time and will never be repeated. He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance. It's a great question and whoever made the comparison between the two did well because they are very similar in many aspects.
I think it's obvious that Jakob could crush Aouita's 27:26.11 if he tried. (He did run 27:54 in a 10k road race in bad conditions a couple of weeks after turning 19. And he has consistenly toyed with Europe's best 10000m runners in the European XC Champinships)
Aouita's 1:43.86 is too hard for Jakob, but I think he's definitely capable of 1:45 low or even 1:44 high. (The top 4 on the Norwegian all time list are: 1:42.58, 1:43.69, 1:44.57 and 1:45.42. 1st and 2nd is too hard for Jakob, but he should aim for either the 3rd of 4th spot.)
And he has beaten Aouita in every distance from 1500m to 5000m by a signifcant margin.
He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance.
What are the 4 races he lost? I can think of -
'83 world championship 1500
'85 1500 to Cram who broke 3:30 for the first time in history
'88 800 where he finished 3rd
A 3000m Steeplechase to Alessandro Lambruschini (8.19.72 vs 8.21.92) in 1987 at the Mediterranean games (lol).
I only used that stat because that's what I found online - the digging of the result gave the context so I never even knew it was a SC. So yeah, hard to really count this race (and Lambruschini finished 3rd in Atlanta 1996 right in the middle of the utter Kenyan dominance so he was no slouch).
He cleans up Cruz who was still the reigning OC here (this was prior to Seoul) and Barbosa who also made the final in Seoul. Poor Cruz - he was undoubtedly the premiment 800 guy of that mid 80's period but got handled by both Aouita and Cram over their off distances of 800m on different occasions.
I know that Jakob has not finished his career and he very well may run a 5k or 1500 record one day...but as of now, who is the better runner?
I say Jakob due to 1500m + 5000m Olympic Gold but he also hasn't set the 1500m or 5000m record. Aouita set a WR in every event from 1500m to 5000m other than the mile. SO who would you argue is better and why?
Also, Passant, don't ruin this thread by explaining how Aouita was a product of himself and poverty, Idc.
Well the better runner is Jakob - he's run markedly faster over all their comparable distances except the 800m and even while he won't ever run 1.43.8 like Aouita, I doubt we will ever see an official 800m that really reflects his potential.
But these types of questions are why I have always made a distinction better "best" and "greatest" because while Jakob is better, is he a greater all round runner than Aouita? Not sure. Greatness to me is the nuanced "measure" and brings in things like context and relativity to the era. All of Aouitas PR's are by todays standards good but not exceptional (he sits 31st all-time in the 1500, 10th in the mile - though this is more a function of how much less the mile is run in big meets than it was in his era, 45th in the 3000 and 112th in the 5000m) - but of course at the time almost all of his bests were the yardstick for humankind as they were the WR's.
I think the big mistake we make when historically comparing athletes in all sports is simply transplanting those from the past into todays landscape but still viewing their performances and abilities from those of the past. Like people who say Jack Nicklaus would get smoked by todays crop of pros or Bill Russell was great in the 60's but put him in todays game and he wouldn't stack up. Sure there is a cut-off where this concept applies (like is Jack Lovelock really running sub 3.30 if he were around today?) but Aouita was definitely a talent that would clearly translate and elevate accordingly to the modern era.
I think the "who is greater" question is very close, but I think it's Aouita. WR's in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m including holding the 15-5 combo for 5 years. The 800+5000m medal combo from the Olympics is such a weird one to contextualize in terms of importance but it is incredible at the same time and will never be repeated. He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance. It's a great question and whoever made the comparison between the two did well because they are very similar in many aspects.
You don't know your facts better than this? Seriously?
What do you think Jakob could do in the 800m if he dedicated to it for a year? That's what Aouita did in 88.
Compare with Ovett, a clean runner winning 800 gold and setting a WR in the two miles, and a Commonwealth 5000m gold where he destroyed the guy who easily won the Europeans a few weeks later.
Hahaha "a clean runner winning 800 gold and setting a WR" - are you for real?
Honestly, Said Aouita was sort of the Jakob of his era. He had these amazing records (like Jacob's 3000m) and he had Olympic golds, but at the same time he didn't always win everything and sometimes he lost in his "main" event.
Each era has a "greatest" and honestly, for a while it was Aouita, then Morceli, then El Guerrouj, then Geb, then Bekele, then Mo Farah, and now Jakob.
None of those guys, besides Bekele, are seriously in the actual GOAT conversation, but for a decade or so, they were the best of the best. None of them were undefeated, but they were usually the odds on favorite to win when they toed the line.
Are you seriously suggesting neither El Guerrouj or Geb are in the GOAT discussion?
El Guerrouj is the most dominant middle distance runner of all-time. He's the only person to run sub-3:27 more than once(he done it 5 times). He holds 6 of the 10 fastest 1500 times ever, he holds 7 of the 15 fastest mile times ever, he done the 1500/5000 double in Athens, won 4 World championships golds in the 1500. 3 world indoor golds. Ran the World record in 1500 and mile indoors, ran the world records in the 1500 and mile outdoors as well as 2000m. Was the second fastest 3000m runner, won Olympic Gold at 5000 against Bekele and Kipchoge, Bekele never beat El Guerrouj in a championship 5000. He won the Golden league Jackpot 3 times. Was voted World athlete of the year 3 times in a row.
As for discounting Geb from that discussion, that's utterly ridiculous, Geb arguably had a better track career than Bekele. He broke 27 world records in his career, won 4 world's, two Olympics. His marathon career is way ahead of Bekeles.
I still think Bekele is the GOAT but to say neither EL G or Geb are even in the discussion is straight up disrespectful and honestly, pure ignorance
So when he defeated Rono in 1978 (the year Rono set 3 WRs) while breaking the 2 mile world record, why didn't the fast pace destroy him?
As said, worth around 7:40 (WR 7:32.1 at the time).
Worth @ 7:37 per the calculators I find, about 5 secs slower than Rono'a 3k WR - which was 3 secs faster than previous record. And Ovett slowed down and waved to the crowd in the finishing straight.
Plus he broke mile and 1500m records.
And won 800m OG gold
It's just silly to argue he could not run a fast pace
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Honestly, Said Aouita was sort of the Jakob of his era. He had these amazing records (like Jacob's 3000m) and he had Olympic golds, but at the same time he didn't always win everything and sometimes he lost in his "main" event.
Each era has a "greatest" and honestly, for a while it was Aouita, then Morceli, then El Guerrouj, then Geb, then Bekele, then Mo Farah, and now Jakob.
None of those guys, besides Bekele, are seriously in the actual GOAT conversation, but for a decade or so, they were the best of the best. None of them were undefeated, but they were usually the odds on favorite to win when they toed the line.
Are you seriously suggesting neither El Guerrouj or Geb are in the GOAT discussion?
El Guerrouj is the most dominant middle distance runner of all-time. He's the only person to run sub-3:27 more than once(he done it 5 times). He holds 6 of the 10 fastest 1500 times ever, he holds 7 of the 15 fastest mile times ever, he done the 1500/5000 double in Athens, won 4 World championships golds in the 1500. 3 world indoor golds. Ran the World record in 1500 and mile indoors, ran the world records in the 1500 and mile outdoors as well as 2000m. Was the second fastest 3000m runner, won Olympic Gold at 5000 against Bekele and Kipchoge, Bekele never beat El Guerrouj in a championship 5000. He won the Golden league Jackpot 3 times. Was voted World athlete of the year 3 times in a row.
As for discounting Geb from that discussion, that's utterly ridiculous, Geb arguably had a better track career than Bekele. He broke 27 world records in his career, won 4 world's, two Olympics. His marathon career is way ahead of Bekeles.
I still think Bekele is the GOAT but to say neither EL G or Geb are even in the discussion is straight up disrespectful and honestly, pure ignorance
Let’s be real, a bunch of WRs indoors and on the road are kind of irrelevant. Bekele broke the two most important ones. Hicham never won a 10k title or fast 5k or 10k time. Bekele has run fast 5k - Marathon. This is a no brainer.
to even be in the all-around GOAT you need respectable 800 speed. Jakob cannot and could not ever run a sub 1:45 800.
The honor of all-around GOAT belongs to Augustine Choge, still the only man ever to break all the barriers of elitehood: 1:45, 3:30, 7:30, 13, and 60 second marathon. He'd easily run sub 27 if he gave a rip about that, but there's no incentive, other than to win this GOAT threads. As an actual elite he cares more about getting paid, and the 10,000 is economically dead and buried.
Do you mean "range GOAT" because that is what you are defining. Actual GOAT goes to someone who has a bunch of gold medals, world records, and broken barriers. Choge has none of those.
p.s. Choge is great but he isn't even the "range GOAT" either. He has run the marathon but in a pedestrian 2:20 and his 10km PR is 28:22. Sorry, not GOAT material.
Actually his best 10k is 28:10, a little more than twice a row in the same 59:26 half. So let's not kid ourselves about what he could do if he wanted to settle this debate.
Which 2:04 marathon legend has broken both 3:30 and 1:45? There's noone else with this range. Easiest way to prove me wrong would be list the PR's of all sub 1:45 guys, cause you'll find most don't even have serious PRs at distance.
Very clearly Jakob. He is simply the greatest 1500m-5000m Specialist of all time. Already Olympic Champion at both events at the age of 24. Cannot wait to see if he can replicate this in LA 28. Here are the IAAF Results Scores added up and ranking for every event between the 1500m to the 5k.
A list that ranks Stewie McSweyn and Craig Mottram (both, interestingly, coached by Nic Bideau) ahead of Steve Cram, John Walker, and Steve Ovett should raise some eyebrows. IAAF points tell an incomplete story when comparing runners across generations.
It just based on PBs and the corresponding World Athletics Points. Don’t need to look so much into it other than Jakob clear anyone from 1500m-5000m. Simply the greatest of all time in this event group.
Are you seriously suggesting neither El Guerrouj or Geb are in the GOAT discussion?
El Guerrouj is the most dominant middle distance runner of all-time. He's the only person to run sub-3:27 more than once(he done it 5 times). He holds 6 of the 10 fastest 1500 times ever, he holds 7 of the 15 fastest mile times ever, he done the 1500/5000 double in Athens, won 4 World championships golds in the 1500. 3 world indoor golds. Ran the World record in 1500 and mile indoors, ran the world records in the 1500 and mile outdoors as well as 2000m. Was the second fastest 3000m runner, won Olympic Gold at 5000 against Bekele and Kipchoge, Bekele never beat El Guerrouj in a championship 5000. He won the Golden league Jackpot 3 times. Was voted World athlete of the year 3 times in a row.
As for discounting Geb from that discussion, that's utterly ridiculous, Geb arguably had a better track career than Bekele. He broke 27 world records in his career, won 4 world's, two Olympics. His marathon career is way ahead of Bekeles.
I still think Bekele is the GOAT but to say neither EL G or Geb are even in the discussion is straight up disrespectful and honestly, pure ignorance
Let’s be real, a bunch of WRs indoors and on the road are kind of irrelevant. Bekele broke the two most important ones. Hicham never won a 10k title or fast 5k or 10k time. Bekele has run fast 5k - Marathon. This is a no brainer.
Bekele never came close to 3:26 either or won a 1500 title
And what do you mean he never ran a fast 5k time? His very first 5000 as a pro was 12:50, good enough for 7th all-time at the time. In the final in Paris, he closed a 12:52 race in 53.
When Geb came on the scene, the world records were barely sub 27 and sub 13. Look at what they were after. Geb also ran a 3:31 indoor 1500 and done something Bekele never could. He broke the 5000/10000/Half Marathon/Marathon World records. He also has way more big marathon wins than Bekele ever did.
Bekele has the XC titles and its why he gets my GOAT status but nowhere near as clearcut as you are making out. Haile arguably had a better track career, and had a way better marathon career.
Well the better runner is Jakob - he's run markedly faster over all their comparable distances except the 800m and even while he won't ever run 1.43.8 like Aouita, I doubt we will ever see an official 800m that really reflects his potential.
But these types of questions are why I have always made a distinction better "best" and "greatest" because while Jakob is better, is he a greater all round runner than Aouita? Not sure. Greatness to me is the nuanced "measure" and brings in things like context and relativity to the era. All of Aouitas PR's are by todays standards good but not exceptional (he sits 31st all-time in the 1500, 10th in the mile - though this is more a function of how much less the mile is run in big meets than it was in his era, 45th in the 3000 and 112th in the 5000m) - but of course at the time almost all of his bests were the yardstick for humankind as they were the WR's.
I think the big mistake we make when historically comparing athletes in all sports is simply transplanting those from the past into todays landscape but still viewing their performances and abilities from those of the past. Like people who say Jack Nicklaus would get smoked by todays crop of pros or Bill Russell was great in the 60's but put him in todays game and he wouldn't stack up. Sure there is a cut-off where this concept applies (like is Jack Lovelock really running sub 3.30 if he were around today?) but Aouita was definitely a talent that would clearly translate and elevate accordingly to the modern era.
I think the "who is greater" question is very close, but I think it's Aouita. WR's in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m including holding the 15-5 combo for 5 years. The 800+5000m medal combo from the Olympics is such a weird one to contextualize in terms of importance but it is incredible at the same time and will never be repeated. He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance. It's a great question and whoever made the comparison between the two did well because they are very similar in many aspects.
You don't know your facts better than this? Seriously?
A list that ranks Stewie McSweyn and Craig Mottram (both, interestingly, coached by Nic Bideau) ahead of Steve Cram, John Walker, and Steve Ovett should raise some eyebrows. IAAF points tell an incomplete story when comparing runners across generations.
It just based on PBs and the corresponding World Athletics Points. Don’t need to look so much into it other than Jakob clear anyone from 1500m-5000m. Simply the greatest of all time in this event group.
Times run in 2024 are different than times run in the 1970s.
I know that Jakob has not finished his career and he very well may run a 5k or 1500 record one day...but as of now, who is the better runner?
I say Jakob due to 1500m + 5000m Olympic Gold but he also hasn't set the 1500m or 5000m record. Aouita set a WR in every event from 1500m to 5000m other than the mile. SO who would you argue is better and why?
Also, Passant, don't ruin this thread by explaining how Aouita was a product of himself and poverty, Idc.
Well the better runner is Jakob - he's run markedly faster over all their comparable distances except the 800m and even while he won't ever run 1.43.8 like Aouita, I doubt we will ever see an official 800m that really reflects his potential.
But these types of questions are why I have always made a distinction better "best" and "greatest" because while Jakob is better, is he a greater all round runner than Aouita? Not sure. Greatness to me is the nuanced "measure" and brings in things like context and relativity to the era. All of Aouitas PR's are by todays standards good but not exceptional (he sits 31st all-time in the 1500, 10th in the mile - though this is more a function of how much less the mile is run in big meets than it was in his era, 45th in the 3000 and 112th in the 5000m) - but of course at the time almost all of his bests were the yardstick for humankind as they were the WR's.
I think the big mistake we make when historically comparing athletes in all sports is simply transplanting those from the past into todays landscape but still viewing their performances and abilities from those of the past. Like people who say Jack Nicklaus would get smoked by todays crop of pros or Bill Russell was great in the 60's but put him in todays game and he wouldn't stack up. Sure there is a cut-off where this concept applies (like is Jack Lovelock really running sub 3.30 if he were around today?) but Aouita was definitely a talent that would clearly translate and elevate accordingly to the modern era.
I think the "who is greater" question is very close, but I think it's Aouita. WR's in the 1500m, 3000m, 5000m including holding the 15-5 combo for 5 years. The 800+5000m medal combo from the Olympics is such a weird one to contextualize in terms of importance but it is incredible at the same time and will never be repeated. He won 115 of 119 races across basically 8 years - even Jakob can't and won't match that dominance. It's a great question and whoever made the comparison between the two did well because they are very similar in many aspects.
I rarely disagree with you, but I do here. Aouita is the only guy in history to my knowledge who moved down to the 800m from the 1500/5000m. But you're right, nobody else will ever try.
Even his 1500/mile suffered in 88. Wise move to pull out of the 1500m in Seoul.
He only broke 1:45 in a season in which he raced a 5000m once - 1987 (1:44.7). In 83 (1:44.4) and 88 (1:43.9) he did not run a 5000m.
Ovett broke the two mile WR, easily beating Henry Rono who himself had been breaking WRs for fun that summer, just a couple of weeks after running 1:44.0 at the European Championships.
I think in the winter of 87/88, Aouita decided that all the Brits, even Cram, were washed up. Cruz was apparently past it too, and Konchellah had an ankle injury. He would never have an opportunity like this again. The memory of chickening out of the LA 1500m must have haunted him too.
As for his unbeaten run, well the Golden League was introduced in part because of Aouita's famous dodging of rivals.
Then there are all the doping red flags. Aouita today would either be a lot slower or get popped.
I think it's obvious that Jakob could crush Aouita's 27:26.11 if he tried. (He did run 27:54 in a 10k road race in bad conditions a couple of weeks after turning 19. And he has consistenly toyed with Europe's best 10000m runners in the European XC Champinships)
Aouita's 1:43.86 is too hard for Jakob, but I think he's definitely capable of 1:45 low or even 1:44 high. (The top 4 on the Norwegian all time list are: 1:42.58, 1:43.69, 1:44.57 and 1:45.42. 1st and 2nd is too hard for Jakob, but he should aim for either the 3rd of 4th spot.)
And he has beaten Aouita in every distance from 1500m to 5000m by a signifcant margin.
That 800m ranking was a joke- for what Bronze in the Olympics 800m
No.
He won every other 800m race he ran that year, defeating most of the top 800m runners in the world.
TFN rankings are pretty good
UKathleticscoach is right, 88 was a very poor year with Cruz, Konchellah, Coe, Cram, Elliott, McKean all struggling with injuries. Aouita thought he could take advantage. Aouita's bronze was inferior to Ovett's Commonwealth 5000m gold (well past his prime).
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