My cousin's son grew up in NJ and ended up at Emory. He stayed in the south after graduation. I have also run across some young attorneys who migrated south from the NE. I think the main issue is that the meritocracy in the northeast is very stifling. In order to get in to an Ivy, you have to basically get all As, max out the AP credits, max out the standardized test scores and start a non profit that teaches truck drivers how to write haiku. If you don't get into an Ivy, you are immediately considered second rate and your job prospects are immediately limited in hyper competitive markets like corporate leadership, law, finance and medicine. And the second tier schools are all outrageously expensive private schools like Colgate, Tufts, BU, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, etc. While there are some very good public schools like William and Mary, Rutgers, UVA, etc., most of the public schools in the northeast are pretty bleak. They have lousy sports teams, cruddy campuses and fancy employers in the northeast will not even look at your resume if you have a U. Mass or SUNY on it.
In the south, you really can be free from that meritocracy. With the exception of some c-suite positions, most employers in the south are happy to have someone who went to Auburn, UGA, Clemson, etc. And the alumni networks from these schools can be a big help in landing a job or starting a business and finding clients. Getting in to southern schools is relatively easy compared to the Ivies and second tier schools. However, that is starting to change. At University of Texas, most of the seats are reserved for in-state students because you automatically get admitted if you finish in the top 10% of your high school. So, the out of state acceptance rate at UT is now about 10%. But there are all comers schools like University of Mississippi and pay to play schools like SMU, Texas Tech, etc.
A real education encourages students to think for themselves and NOT follow a go along to get along mentality. Ivy League sheep, please stay away from me.
A real education encourages students to think for themselves and NOT follow a go along to get along mentality. Ivy League sheep, please stay away from me.
I'm quite confident you don't interact with anyone from the Ivy League in your career.
A real education encourages students to think for themselves and NOT follow a go along to get along mentality. Ivy League sheep, please stay away from me.
I'm quite confident you don't interact with anyone from the Ivy League in your career.
I do daily. They are upset and mad as hell what is happening to their alma maters. Many are refusing to donate after the protests and administration response over the last year.
I'm quite confident you don't interact with anyone from the Ivy League in your career.
I do daily. They are upset and mad as hell what is happening to their alma maters. Many are refusing to donate after the protests and administration response over the last year.
And they still would go there over Clemson were they 18 again.
Makes sense for people who want to study easy subjects and party. Leaves more spots at the elite institutions for those with productive goals like professional degrees (MD/JD) or STEM research.
Ahhh, the indefatigable douche and King of humility pops his all-knowing head in again on another subject where he’s the self-proclaimed SME…
So, again, only by way of example, I have a child who was 4.4 student at a public with a dozen APs, top 99+% on SAT (not super scored, just one take), student government, varsity cross and track, lots of volunteer hours and student ambassador for disabled kids. Because she was applying to college during Covid, I told her don’t bother with “Ivies” or Stanford because you won’t get in with grade inflation, test optional reverse discrimination, and the religion of wokeness. And, even if you do via early decision to a lower tier Ivy, no education, none, is worth the $85,000-90,000 per year we would’ve had to pay for undergrad. Not Harvard, not MIT.
So, alas, we scouted schools all over the south, and there are some damn good ones like the Davidson’s, Emory’s, Wake Forest’s, Trinity’s, Tulane’s of the world, in addition to Duke, Vandy, and Rice (all of which are better than the bottom half of the Ivy). She actually received a merit full ride from one school, but it was too remote and small, so she opted for a $50,000 scholarship including research grant money) at a “Southern Hidden Ivy.” Effectively making it the same cost of an in state education at decidedly better school, replete with paid research opportunities, paid internships, and multiple travel abroad opportunities.
Will she be disadvantaged because she didn’t pay $90,000 annually to go to MIT or Hopkins? I think not, especially as she’s gotten very robust research experience and has managed the lab, and she’s top of her class. She will succeed at the next level and have money to boot to actually pay for it. Plus, her campus was never under all the silly Covid restrictions, save for maybe the first six months, and remote learning has revealed just how useless many of these ornate and “brand” colleges really are. Some of which are still requiring Covid vaccination, ironically, while enabling the student activism that’s encouraging children like my own to seek the fertile ground of the south.
You get out of school what you put into it. There’s nothing special about an Ivy anymore. The top UC schools (where I went) are just as good as the elite schools, especially in the biological fields and engineering, but even they are way too liberal. Like you. Ga Tech is a great school, by way of just one example. So is the University of Florida or UNC. There are many, many options. Only an idiot would pay full price for a Northeast school.
Makes sense for people who want to study easy subjects and party. Leaves more spots at the elite institutions for those with productive goals like professional degrees (MD/JD) or STEM research.
Ahhh, the indefatigable douche and King of humility pops his all-knowing head in again on another subject where he’s the self-proclaimed SME…
So, again, only by way of example, I have a child who was 4.4 student at a public with a dozen APs, top 99+% on SAT (not super scored, just one take), student government, varsity cross and track, lots of volunteer hours and student ambassador for disabled kids. Because she was applying to college during Covid, I told her don’t bother with “Ivies” or Stanford because you won’t get in with grade inflation, test optional reverse discrimination, and the religion of wokeness. And, even if you do via early decision to a lower tier Ivy, no education, none, is worth the $85,000-90,000 per year we would’ve had to pay for undergrad. Not Harvard, not MIT.
So, alas, we scouted schools all over the south, and there are some damn good ones like the Davidson’s, Emory’s, Wake Forest’s, Trinity’s, Tulane’s of the world, in addition to Duke, Vandy, and Rice (all of which are better than the bottom half of the Ivy). She actually received a merit full ride from one school, but it was too remote and small, so she opted for a $50,000 scholarship including research grant money) at a “Southern Hidden Ivy.” Effectively making it the same cost of an in state education at decidedly better school, replete with paid research opportunities, paid internships, and multiple travel abroad opportunities.
Will she be disadvantaged because she didn’t pay $90,000 annually to go to MIT or Hopkins? I think not, especially as she’s gotten very robust research experience and has managed the lab, and she’s top of her class. She will succeed at the next level and have money to boot to actually pay for it. Plus, her campus was never under all the silly Covid restrictions, save for maybe the first six months, and remote learning has revealed just how useless many of these ornate and “brand” colleges really are. Some of which are still requiring Covid vaccination, ironically, while enabling the student activism that’s encouraging children like my own to seek the fertile ground of the south.
You get out of school what you put into it. There’s nothing special about an Ivy anymore. The top UC schools (where I went) are just as good as the elite schools, especially in the biological fields and engineering, but even they are way too liberal. Like you. Ga Tech is a great school, by way of just one example. So is the University of Florida or UNC. There are many, many options. Only an idiot would pay full price for a Northeast school.
Bravo, same for my non elite and much less accomplished but happy and well adjusted son.
Ahhh, the indefatigable douche and King of humility pops his all-knowing head in again on another subject where he’s the self-proclaimed SME…
So, again, only by way of example, I have a child who was 4.4 student at a public with a dozen APs, top 99+% on SAT (not super scored, just one take), student government, varsity cross and track, lots of volunteer hours and student ambassador for disabled kids. Because she was applying to college during Covid, I told her don’t bother with “Ivies” or Stanford because you won’t get in with grade inflation, test optional reverse discrimination, and the religion of wokeness. And, even if you do via early decision to a lower tier Ivy, no education, none, is worth the $85,000-90,000 per year we would’ve had to pay for undergrad. Not Harvard, not MIT.
So, alas, we scouted schools all over the south, and there are some damn good ones like the Davidson’s, Emory’s, Wake Forest’s, Trinity’s, Tulane’s of the world, in addition to Duke, Vandy, and Rice (all of which are better than the bottom half of the Ivy). She actually received a merit full ride from one school, but it was too remote and small, so she opted for a $50,000 scholarship including research grant money) at a “Southern Hidden Ivy.” Effectively making it the same cost of an in state education at decidedly better school, replete with paid research opportunities, paid internships, and multiple travel abroad opportunities.
Will she be disadvantaged because she didn’t pay $90,000 annually to go to MIT or Hopkins? I think not, especially as she’s gotten very robust research experience and has managed the lab, and she’s top of her class. She will succeed at the next level and have money to boot to actually pay for it. Plus, her campus was never under all the silly Covid restrictions, save for maybe the first six months, and remote learning has revealed just how useless many of these ornate and “brand” colleges really are. Some of which are still requiring Covid vaccination, ironically, while enabling the student activism that’s encouraging children like my own to seek the fertile ground of the south.
You get out of school what you put into it. There’s nothing special about an Ivy anymore. The top UC schools (where I went) are just as good as the elite schools, especially in the biological fields and engineering, but even they are way too liberal. Like you. Ga Tech is a great school, by way of just one example. So is the University of Florida or UNC. There are many, many options. Only an idiot would pay full price for a Northeast school.
Bravo, same for my non elite and much less accomplished but happy and well adjusted son.
Happy, well adjusted, and will do just fine in life at a fraction of the cost. I commend you sir.
More than anything, it’s fun to poke holes in Harambe’s boat, since he’s constantly telling everyone what an amazing captain he is and how they are all only worthy of being second officers, at best.
Makes sense for people who want to study easy subjects and party. Leaves more spots at the elite institutions for those with productive goals like professional degrees (MD/JD) or STEM research.
Ahhh, the indefatigable douche and King of humility pops his all-knowing head in again on another subject where he’s the self-proclaimed SME…
So, again, only by way of example, I have a child who was 4.4 student at a public with a dozen APs, top 99+% on SAT (not super scored, just one take), student government, varsity cross and track, lots of volunteer hours and student ambassador for disabled kids. Because she was applying to college during Covid, I told her don’t bother with “Ivies” or Stanford because you won’t get in with grade inflation, test optional reverse discrimination, and the religion of wokeness. And, even if you do via early decision to a lower tier Ivy, no education, none, is worth the $85,000-90,000 per year we would’ve had to pay for undergrad. Not Harvard, not MIT.
So, alas, we scouted schools all over the south, and there are some damn good ones like the Davidson’s, Emory’s, Wake Forest’s, Trinity’s, Tulane’s of the world, in addition to Duke, Vandy, and Rice (all of which are better than the bottom half of the Ivy). She actually received a merit full ride from one school, but it was too remote and small, so she opted for a $50,000 scholarship including research grant money) at a “Southern Hidden Ivy.” Effectively making it the same cost of an in state education at decidedly better school, replete with paid research opportunities, paid internships, and multiple travel abroad opportunities.
Will she be disadvantaged because she didn’t pay $90,000 annually to go to MIT or Hopkins? I think not, especially as she’s gotten very robust research experience and has managed the lab, and she’s top of her class. She will succeed at the next level and have money to boot to actually pay for it. Plus, her campus was never under all the silly Covid restrictions, save for maybe the first six months, and remote learning has revealed just how useless many of these ornate and “brand” colleges really are. Some of which are still requiring Covid vaccination, ironically, while enabling the student activism that’s encouraging children like my own to seek the fertile ground of the south.
You get out of school what you put into it. There’s nothing special about an Ivy anymore. The top UC schools (where I went) are just as good as the elite schools, especially in the biological fields and engineering, but even they are way too liberal. Like you. Ga Tech is a great school, by way of just one example. So is the University of Florida or UNC. There are many, many options. Only an idiot would pay full price for a Northeast school.
All the schools you mentioned are great schools. I never said otherwise.
People with high ambitions for law, medicine, finance, and STEM research do not turn down HYP/M/S (+ a few others) for other schools for reasons besides cost.
Your child didn't even apply to those schools so it's not like they were even faced with the choice I am talking about.
You can look at the stats for acceptance into law/medicine/research graduate school/high finance and see I am right. There is plenty special about the ultra elite colleges in terms of career prospects. If you choose where to attend a school because of the political atmosphere, then you are clearly prioritizing other things in your college decision.
Most people who consider themselves successful did not attend an ultra elite college. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme. There's a good argument to be made that you should prioritize things beyond raw career potential when going to college, but pretending like the ultra elite colleges don't offer a significant boost for highly competitive fields is, frankly, cope.
Bravo, same for my non elite and much less accomplished but happy and well adjusted son.
Happy, well adjusted, and will do just fine in life at a fraction of the cost. I commend you sir.
More than anything, it’s fun to poke holes in Harambe’s boat, since he’s constantly telling everyone what an amazing captain he is and how they are all only worthy of being second officers, at best.
Sorry, I have a vaccine requirement for all crew aboard the SS Harambe.
Most people who consider themselves successful did not attend an ultra elite college. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme. There's a good argument to be made that you should prioritize things beyond raw career potential when going to college, but pretending like the ultra elite colleges don't offer a significant boost for highly competitive fields is, frankly, cope.
This is the best thing you’ve actually written in a long time, this part.
My wife and I have hired and fired many an Ivy League grad. I would take a Ga Tech grad or top liberal arts school grad any day over Ivy. But that’s just me and my experience. Especially now with all the grade inflation/test optional BS because the applicants are decidedly less capable than ever.
Lastly, I don’t know why you are picking on Clemson. It’s no HYP, for sure, but it’s not an easy school to get into anymore, they have robust scholarships for great students, and, in medicine, for example, they have an accelerated BS/MD program. If you are a kid who’s offered significant money and want the accelerated track, but ALSO the D1 sports and party environment, because, yes, you can have it all, you could do a lot worse than Clemson. We looked at it. My kid ended up not super far from there.
This reminds me of the kid from AL who got into every Ivy he applied to but chose to stay at Bama in the honors program. Not sure what happened to him, but I’m sure he’s happy and successful.
Most people who consider themselves successful did not attend an ultra elite college. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme. There's a good argument to be made that you should prioritize things beyond raw career potential when going to college, but pretending like the ultra elite colleges don't offer a significant boost for highly competitive fields is, frankly, cope.
This is the best thing you’ve actually written in a long time, this part.
My wife and I have hired and fired many an Ivy League grad. I would take a Ga Tech grad or top liberal arts school grad any day over Ivy. But that’s just me and my experience. Especially now with all the grade inflation/test optional BS because the applicants are decidedly less capable than ever.
Lastly, I don’t know why you are picking on Clemson. It’s no HYP, for sure, but it’s not an easy school to get into anymore, they have robust scholarships for great students, and, in medicine, for example, they have an accelerated BS/MD program. If you are a kid who’s offered significant money and want the accelerated track, but ALSO the D1 sports and party environment, because, yes, you can have it all, you could do a lot worse than Clemson. We looked at it. My kid ended up not super far from there.
This reminds me of the kid from AL who got into every Ivy he applied to but chose to stay at Bama in the honors program. Not sure what happened to him, but I’m sure he’s happy and successful.
I'm not picking on Clemson. It's an example of a good school that everyone would agree is firmly a tier (or more) below HYP/S/M, that's all (and it was mentioned earlier in the thread).
People are crowing that elite colleges are now awful and not worth it on this thread – most of it for dumb political reasons. That's obviously wrong. Are the atmospheres not what some kids want? Sure, it all depends on your priorities.
American universities – across the 'tiers' we love to discuss – are some of the most productive institutions on in history. The political attacks against university education are not good so I will reflexively go after what I think are dumb political arguments (as you are well aware).
Ahhh, the indefatigable douche and King of humility pops his all-knowing head in again on another subject where he’s the self-proclaimed SME…
So, again, only by way of example, I have a child who was 4.4 student at a public with a dozen APs, top 99+% on SAT (not super scored, just one take), student government, varsity cross and track, lots of volunteer hours and student ambassador for disabled kids. Because she was applying to college during Covid, I told her don’t bother with “Ivies” or Stanford because you won’t get in with grade inflation, test optional reverse discrimination, and the religion of wokeness. And, even if you do via early decision to a lower tier Ivy, no education, none, is worth the $85,000-90,000 per year we would’ve had to pay for undergrad. Not Harvard, not MIT.
So, alas, we scouted schools all over the south, and there are some damn good ones like the Davidson’s, Emory’s, Wake Forest’s, Trinity’s, Tulane’s of the world, in addition to Duke, Vandy, and Rice (all of which are better than the bottom half of the Ivy). She actually received a merit full ride from one school, but it was too remote and small, so she opted for a $50,000 scholarship including research grant money) at a “Southern Hidden Ivy.” Effectively making it the same cost of an in state education at decidedly better school, replete with paid research opportunities, paid internships, and multiple travel abroad opportunities.
Will she be disadvantaged because she didn’t pay $90,000 annually to go to MIT or Hopkins? I think not, especially as she’s gotten very robust research experience and has managed the lab, and she’s top of her class. She will succeed at the next level and have money to boot to actually pay for it. Plus, her campus was never under all the silly Covid restrictions, save for maybe the first six months, and remote learning has revealed just how useless many of these ornate and “brand” colleges really are. Some of which are still requiring Covid vaccination, ironically, while enabling the student activism that’s encouraging children like my own to seek the fertile ground of the south.
You get out of school what you put into it. There’s nothing special about an Ivy anymore. The top UC schools (where I went) are just as good as the elite schools, especially in the biological fields and engineering, but even they are way too liberal. Like you. Ga Tech is a great school, by way of just one example. So is the University of Florida or UNC. There are many, many options. Only an idiot would pay full price for a Northeast school.
All the schools you mentioned are great schools. I never said otherwise.
People with high ambitions for law, medicine, finance, and STEM research do not turn down HYP/M/S (+ a few others) for other schools for reasons besides cost.
Your child didn't even apply to those schools so it's not like they were even faced with the choice I am talking about.
You can look at the stats for acceptance into law/medicine/research graduate school/high finance and see I am right. There is plenty special about the ultra elite colleges in terms of career prospects. If you choose where to attend a school because of the political atmosphere, then you are clearly prioritizing other things in your college decision.
Most people who consider themselves successful did not attend an ultra elite college. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme. There's a good argument to be made that you should prioritize things beyond raw career potential when going to college, but pretending like the ultra elite colleges don't offer a significant boost for highly competitive fields is, frankly, cope.
It's not because of the colleges. It's because, until test optional lunacy of 2020, they'd pick the best students. Chicken vs egg - though both play a role. Best colleges attracted the best students and the cycle continues.
This is wrong though. Harambe's actually right for once - if you want to go into finance, especially if you're not a DEI person, you basically need to go to certain schools.
Didn’t anyone tell these kids that 100% of professors are democrats and college is a waste of time? They should’ve listened to the experts on this site.
The South is King Football (Yay, CTE!), but the Northeast is the Epicenter of Educational Excellence in the United States, and to argue otherwise is idiotic.
This is the best thing you’ve actually written in a long time, this part.
My wife and I have hired and fired many an Ivy League grad. I would take a Ga Tech grad or top liberal arts school grad any day over Ivy. But that’s just me and my experience. Especially now with all the grade inflation/test optional BS because the applicants are decidedly less capable than ever.
Lastly, I don’t know why you are picking on Clemson. It’s no HYP, for sure, but it’s not an easy school to get into anymore, they have robust scholarships for great students, and, in medicine, for example, they have an accelerated BS/MD program. If you are a kid who’s offered significant money and want the accelerated track, but ALSO the D1 sports and party environment, because, yes, you can have it all, you could do a lot worse than Clemson. We looked at it. My kid ended up not super far from there.
This reminds me of the kid from AL who got into every Ivy he applied to but chose to stay at Bama in the honors program. Not sure what happened to him, but I’m sure he’s happy and successful.
I'm not picking on Clemson. It's an example of a good school that everyone would agree is firmly a tier (or more) below HYP/S/M, that's all (and it was mentioned earlier in the thread).
People are crowing that elite colleges are now awful and not worth it on this thread – most of it for dumb political reasons. That's obviously wrong. Are the atmospheres not what some kids want? Sure, it all depends on your priorities.
American universities – across the 'tiers' we love to discuss – are some of the most productive institutions on in history. The political attacks against university education are not good so I will reflexively go after what I think are dumb political arguments (as you are well aware).
I just see it slightly differently. I think it’s much better to expand one’s horizons at that age and go be a big fish in a little pond rather than get caught up in the cortisol-inducing rat race of top academia, especially if it means more access to money, professors, and a life outside the classroom. Graduate school is the time to go for it. You only die once and you only get to be 18-22 once.
I have a really good friend who went to a no name school in the south for undergrad, then Duke for a PhD and Emory for MD. Leader in his field. His advice for my child was exactly this, go to a school where you can excel and not be stressed out for undergrad, and do well while enjoying your life. That’s the most important thing.
This is wrong though. Harambe's actually right for once - if you want to go into finance, especially if you're not a DEI person, you basically need to go to certain schools.
In finance I would agree, though Chicago, NYU, and Cornell will set you up just fine. Really any “top 20” MBA program.