Georgia Bell's 1.56 800 PB by 3 and a half seconds at the London DL also didn't get as much attention as Keely and Reekie set big PBs ahead of her.
According to coach Painter, Bell has made massive improvements because she has only been concentrating 100% on the track since May, taking a sabbatical from her office job
GB has definitely benefitted from being in Keely's training group and the coaches have said that the two of them are pushing each other to new levels.
I know that the cynics on this board don't buy any of it, but that's their problem.
I like the way an athlete can be little more than a useful but undistinguished amateur and then within a year become an Olympic medallist at 30. If it was that easy we would see more of it. But if it's because she is - yawn - another "generational talent" then if she had started younger she would probably be the world record-holder, running 3:47. Sure.
I think she went from being a 2.03/4.06 runner,to 1.56/3.52.
It's not even being cynical, it's just being realistic. Running sub-3:53 while doing only 30mpw of running and missing years of training at age 30. Her coaches are now talking about the world record. She would have to be the greatest talent probably ever, or the whole running industry has it wrong and athletes should be as focused on their biking workouts as their running was. Trevor Painter and Jenny Meadows have stumbled into the greatest system of all time.
Her coaches are talking about a World Record set by an athlete who at age 19 ran 3:56.98 and was Commonwealth Game Champion at 1500m. She's also won two World Junior XC titles. One of the great prodigies of all time.
Meanwhile, Georgia ran 2:03 for 800m when she was 20! Which isn't particularly notable.
Georgia Bell ran 2:08.81 at age 14, and as an adult 1:56.28 / 3:52.61 / 8:42.16. Kirsty Wade ran 2:11.1 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.42 / 4:00.73 / 8:47.7, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Lynsey Sharp ran 2:09.98 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.69, without super shoes. Phoebe Gill ran 2:09.12 at age 14, and at age 17 1:57.86 / 4:05.87. Katie Snowden ran 2:11.10 at age 14, and as an adult 1:58.00 / 3:56.72 / 8:47.41. Christina Boxer ran 2:10.6 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.05 / 4:00.57 / 8:49.89, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Jessica Judd ran 2:07.26 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.77 / 4:03.73 / 8:43.24.
I would argue from the above list that talent exists, you're born with it, and, if you apply a sufficient training load, then elite talent at age 14 can logically become elite talent at age 17 (Phoebe Gill) or age 30 (Georgia Bell). The exact training load required will be individual, which is clearly difficult for many high mileage grinders to accept.
Your focus on Georgia's 2:03.38 at age 20 is actually more insightful than you realise, because it was a remarkably good performance given her regression in the previous years. There is something called the physical maturation process that can take years for girls / young women to work through before progressing in sports.
Let's look at what happened after her 2:08.81 at age 14, noting also that this occurred in her last year of high school in the UK that wasn't intense. From age 14 to 16 we have GCSEs, and age 16 to 18 we have A-Levels.
2008 (age 14): 10x 800 (2:08.81 SB); 4x 1500 (4:35.91 SB) 2009 (age 15): 15x 800 (2:09.16 SB); 5x 1500 (4:33.25 SB) 2010 (age 16): 11x 800 (2:12.20 SB); 4x 1500 (4:48.92 SB) 2011 (age 17): 5x 800 (2:12.51 SB); 3x 1500 (4:36.38 SB) 2012 (age 18): 3x 800 (2:20.52 SB); 7x 1500 (4:43.33 SB) 2013 (age 19): No track, just one XC race 2014 (age 20): 16x 800 (2:03.38 SB, and first PB since 2008); 4x 1500 (4:18.75 SB, and first PB since 2009)
In 2013 and 2014 Georgia was at university in the UK, and unsurprisingly her 800 regressed again in 2015, her final year of uni.
So pausing for a moment to recap, we have an all-time performance at age 14, a regression during the physical maturation years / the most stressful high school years, and a one year flash of talent during the second year of uni, another stressful time in life.
At which point has she seriously committed to the sport, to truly judge her ability as an adult?
Now we move on to NCAA high-mileage stress fracture hell:
In April 2023, Georgia won the Duathlon World Championships in the female 30-34 age group, and only switched to track racing in June.
“The big goal for me was to try and make the (GB duathlon) team last year for the world champs and I was really happy to get the win on the day for my age group. I did not think that I would be at the Olympics back on the track a year later.”
“Afterwards it was kind of like, ‘okay, what, what now?’ Then I started training a little bit more with the group that are based in Manchester, with Trevor Painter’s group… and that gave me an indication that I was getting quite good at it, being able to hang on to Keeley Hodgkinson made me think that actually, perhaps I should focus a little bit more time looking at the track.”
Georgia was working full-time until May 2024, so let's split this year into two.
Jan-May 2024 (age 30): 1x 800 (1:59.93, and first PB since 2014); 9x 1500 (4:00.41) Jun-Aug 2024 (age 30): 1x 800 (1:56.28, #4 British all-time); 8x 1500 (3:52.61, Olympic bronze and British record)
It's inevitable that those 800 and 1500 times will continue to drop, and Georgia should be at the finish line with Faith come Tokyo.
Georgia Bell is Christina Boxer (1500 4th place, 1988 Olympics; Mary Slaney 8th) with super shoes on modern tracks. No need for PEDs, just age 14 talent plus individual training load.
I like the way an athlete can be little more than a useful but undistinguished amateur and then within a year become an Olympic medallist at 30. If it was that easy we would see more of it. But if it's because she is - yawn - another "generational talent" then if she had started younger she would probably be the world record-holder, running 3:47. Sure.
I think she went from being a 2.03/4.06 runner,to 1.56/3.52.
Or maybe being an elite athlete is really all about genetics. You either have it or you don't. You do some amount of elite level training (different amount for everyone) and it unleashes your potential. Impossible to know what the potential is and how much training it takes to reach it until you train at a high level for some sustained period of time.
Just because the talent lies dormant doesn't mean it isn't there. Just some people don't have the life circumstances that allow them to train enough to get there. Some people need less training to reach a certain level than others. Some people's gift is they can absorb a lot of training and keep improving a lot, but some people just need a dedicated block to reveal their talents.
I think she went from being a 2.03/4.06 runner,to 1.56/3.52.
Or maybe being an elite athlete is really all about genetics. You either have it or you don't. You do some amount of elite level training (different amount for everyone) and it unleashes your potential. Impossible to know what the potential is and how much training it takes to reach it until you train at a high level for some sustained period of time.
Just because the talent lies dormant doesn't mean it isn't there. Just some people don't have the life circumstances that allow them to train enough to get there. Some people need less training to reach a certain level than others. Some people's gift is they can absorb a lot of training and keep improving a lot, but some people just need a dedicated block to reveal their talents.
Talent always relies dormant until doping brings it out.
As with all these arguments people will believe what they want. But just think, look at the numbers for a moment. What has most likely to have happened to engender such improvement? What if she was Kenyan? Russian? Would it change your opinion?
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
Or maybe being an elite athlete is really all about genetics. You either have it or you don't.
But in this case we have to believe that Bell has such incredible dormant talent that after 6 months of training in her 30's she's a whisker behind Faith Kipyegon, the greatest 1500m runner of all time who literally won races barefoot as a teen and has trained at an impeccably high level ever since. It's certainly possible but you can see why people are cynical when we've dealt with the likes of Houlihan and Katir at this distance.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Georgia Bell ran 2:08.81 at age 14, and as an adult 1:56.28 / 3:52.61 / 8:42.16. Kirsty Wade ran 2:11.1 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.42 / 4:00.73 / 8:47.7, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Lynsey Sharp ran 2:09.98 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.69, without super shoes. Phoebe Gill ran 2:09.12 at age 14, and at age 17 1:57.86 / 4:05.87. Katie Snowden ran 2:11.10 at age 14, and as an adult 1:58.00 / 3:56.72 / 8:47.41. Christina Boxer ran 2:10.6 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.05 / 4:00.57 / 8:49.89, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Jessica Judd ran 2:07.26 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.77 / 4:03.73 / 8:43.24.
I would argue from the above list that talent exists, you're born with it, and, if you apply a sufficient training load, then elite talent at age 14 can logically become elite talent at age 17 (Phoebe Gill) or age 30 (Georgia Bell).
While all the goons defecate on this thread, herein lies a diamond in the gutter.
Logic based upon facts amidst a sea of sewage.
Good one, AnActualBrit. Expected no less from one well educated.
It's not even being cynical, it's just being realistic. Running sub-3:53 while doing only 30mpw of running and missing years of training at age 30. Her coaches are now talking about the world record. She would have to be the greatest talent probably ever, or the whole running industry has it wrong and athletes should be as focused on their biking workouts as their running was. Trevor Painter and Jenny Meadows have stumbled into the greatest system of all time.
Her coaches are talking about a World Record set by an athlete who at age 19 ran 3:56.98 and was Commonwealth Game Champion at 1500m. She's also won two World Junior XC titles. One of the great prodigies of all time.
Meanwhile, Georgia ran 2:03 for 800m when she was 20! Which isn't particularly notable.
Georgia Bell ran 2:08.81 at age 14, and as an adult 1:56.28 / 3:52.61 / 8:42.16. Kirsty Wade ran 2:11.1 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.42 / 4:00.73 / 8:47.7, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Lynsey Sharp ran 2:09.98 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.69, without super shoes. Phoebe Gill ran 2:09.12 at age 14, and at age 17 1:57.86 / 4:05.87. Katie Snowden ran 2:11.10 at age 14, and as an adult 1:58.00 / 3:56.72 / 8:47.41. Christina Boxer ran 2:10.6 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.05 / 4:00.57 / 8:49.89, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Jessica Judd ran 2:07.26 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.77 / 4:03.73 / 8:43.24.
I would argue from the above list that talent exists, you're born with it, and, if you apply a sufficient training load, then elite talent at age 14 can logically become elite talent at age 17 (Phoebe Gill) or age 30 (Georgia Bell). The exact training load required will be individual, which is clearly difficult for many high mileage grinders to accept.
Your focus on Georgia's 2:03.38 at age 20 is actually more insightful than you realise, because it was a remarkably good performance given her regression in the previous years. There is something called the physical maturation process that can take years for girls / young women to work through before progressing in sports.
Let's look at what happened after her 2:08.81 at age 14, noting also that this occurred in her last year of high school in the UK that wasn't intense. From age 14 to 16 we have GCSEs, and age 16 to 18 we have A-Levels.
2008 (age 14): 10x 800 (2:08.81 SB); 4x 1500 (4:35.91 SB) 2009 (age 15): 15x 800 (2:09.16 SB); 5x 1500 (4:33.25 SB) 2010 (age 16): 11x 800 (2:12.20 SB); 4x 1500 (4:48.92 SB) 2011 (age 17): 5x 800 (2:12.51 SB); 3x 1500 (4:36.38 SB) 2012 (age 18): 3x 800 (2:20.52 SB); 7x 1500 (4:43.33 SB) 2013 (age 19): No track, just one XC race 2014 (age 20): 16x 800 (2:03.38 SB, and first PB since 2008); 4x 1500 (4:18.75 SB, and first PB since 2009)
In 2013 and 2014 Georgia was at university in the UK, and unsurprisingly her 800 regressed again in 2015, her final year of uni.
So pausing for a moment to recap, we have an all-time performance at age 14, a regression during the physical maturation years / the most stressful high school years, and a one year flash of talent during the second year of uni, another stressful time in life.
At which point has she seriously committed to the sport, to truly judge her ability as an adult?
Now we move on to NCAA high-mileage stress fracture hell:
In April 2023, Georgia won the Duathlon World Championships in the female 30-34 age group, and only switched to track racing in June.
“The big goal for me was to try and make the (GB duathlon) team last year for the world champs and I was really happy to get the win on the day for my age group. I did not think that I would be at the Olympics back on the track a year later.”
“Afterwards it was kind of like, ‘okay, what, what now?’ Then I started training a little bit more with the group that are based in Manchester, with Trevor Painter’s group… and that gave me an indication that I was getting quite good at it, being able to hang on to Keeley Hodgkinson made me think that actually, perhaps I should focus a little bit more time looking at the track.”
Georgia was working full-time until May 2024, so let's split this year into two.
Jan-May 2024 (age 30): 1x 800 (1:59.93, and first PB since 2014); 9x 1500 (4:00.41) Jun-Aug 2024 (age 30): 1x 800 (1:56.28, #4 British all-time); 8x 1500 (3:52.61, Olympic bronze and British record)
It's inevitable that those 800 and 1500 times will continue to drop, and Georgia should be at the finish line with Faith come Tokyo.
Georgia Bell is Christina Boxer (1500 4th place, 1988 Olympics; Mary Slaney 8th) with super shoes on modern tracks. No need for PEDs, just age 14 talent plus individual training load.
Georgia Bell ran 2:08.81 at age 14, and as an adult 1:56.28 / 3:52.61 / 8:42.16. Kirsty Wade ran 2:11.1 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.42 / 4:00.73 / 8:47.7, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Lynsey Sharp ran 2:09.98 at age 14, and as an adult 1:57.69, without super shoes. Phoebe Gill ran 2:09.12 at age 14, and at age 17 1:57.86 / 4:05.87. Katie Snowden ran 2:11.10 at age 14, and as an adult 1:58.00 / 3:56.72 / 8:47.41. Christina Boxer ran 2:10.6 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.05 / 4:00.57 / 8:49.89, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Jessica Judd ran 2:07.26 at age 14, and as an adult 1:59.77 / 4:03.73 / 8:43.24.
I would argue from the above list that talent exists, you're born with it, and, if you apply a sufficient training load, then elite talent at age 14 can logically become elite talent at age 17 (Phoebe Gill) or age 30 (Georgia Bell).
While all the goons defecate on this thread, herein lies a diamond in the gutter.
Logic based upon facts amidst a sea of sewage.
Good one, AnActualBrit. Expected no less from one well educated.
Keep posting.
When does the time an athlete runs at 14 tell us what they will achieve at 20 - or 30? It doesn't. No time at 14 tells us that a female runner will achieve 3:52 at 30 - after an improvement of 14 secs in a year. How many talented 14 year olds become an Olympic medallist? This post does nothing more than suggest that top international ability is only possible with talent. That isn't disputed. What it doesn't tell us is when doping has provided a boost to that talent - as it often does today in a sport rife with doping.
A useful rule of thumb. The longer the post the more desperate the argument.
Armstronglivs Member since 10/05/2018 32,159 posts
32159 / 2144 = 15.0 posts per day, for 5 years, 10 months, 13 days.
Only one of us is desperate.
I'm not trying to justify how I improved 14 seconds in a year at age 30 to become one of the fastest in history in my event. At only an 8 second improvement Katir must feel hard done by.
Armstronglivs Member since 10/05/2018 32,159 posts
32159 / 2144 = 15.0 posts per day, for 5 years, 10 months, 13 days.
Only one of us is desperate.
I'm not trying to justify how I improved 14 seconds in a year at age 30 to become one of the fastest in history in my event. At only an 8 second improvement Katir must feel hard done by.
While all the goons defecate on this thread, herein lies a diamond in the gutter.
Logic based upon facts amidst a sea of sewage.
Good one, AnActualBrit. Expected no less from one well educated.
Keep posting.
Ben Pattison ran 1:54.52 at age 14, and as an adult 1:42.27. Max Burgin ran 1:53.1 at age 14, and as an adult 1:43.50. Tom McKean ran 1:58.6 at age 14, and as an adult 1:43.88, without super shoes, on 1980s tracks. Michael Rimmer ran 1:55.56 at age 14, and as an adult 1:43.89, without super shoes. Archie Davis ran 1:58.80 at age 14, and as an adult 1:44.72. Thomas Randolph ran 1:58.14 at age 14, and as an adult 1:44.88.
Josh Kerr ran 1:59.37 / 4:05.26 at age 14, and as an adult 1:45.35 / 3:27.79. Mohamed Farah ran 4:06.41 at age 14, and as an adult 3:28.81, without super shoes.
Melissa Courtney-Bryant ran 4:27.9 at age 14, and as an adult 3:58.01 / 8:37.74 / 14:53.82. Jo Pavey ran 4:27.9 at age 14, and as an adult 4:01.79 / 8:31.27 / 14:39.96, without super shoes.
His 1:43.63 knocked over a second off Coe’s 1983 time and it was the second-fastest indoor 800m in history. What made it even more remarkable was that it marked the latest chapter in a story that has seen Giles fight his way back not only from persistent injuries but also the terrible damage his body suffered in a motorbike accident in 2014. Giles, 27, has rebuilt himself by adapting his training to suit his body, running just 15 miles a week. Indeed, the ‘world’s greatest cross-trainer’ shows runners at every level that there are many paths to becoming the best we can be. Runner’s World caught up with Giles to hear about the power of thinking outside the box and refusing to take ‘no’ for an answer.
How close was your accident to costing you your career? The crash was back in 2014. I was 19 and my PB was 1:53, so at that point you could argue I wasn’t even really considered to be an athlete because 1:53 didn’t even get you an invitation to the British Champs. But a lot of the start of my career was spent on the sidelines. In my first year, I managed to get an England vest, but then 17, 18 and 19 were all injury years. So the crash came after this long period of injury and it helped me gather myself and rebuild slowly through the help of [coach] James Brewer. He was based at my university, Twickenham St Mary’s, and he is largely the reason I was able to put the pieces of the puzzle together. He slowed me down whereas, prior to that, I was stuck in a cycle of run for six weeks, get injured, run for six weeks, get injured. I’ve got a Word document that shows it all and when I look back, I don’t know how I’m where I am now with how little training I was able to commit to over the years.
I think that’s why my performances of late have improved so much, because back then I only had guts and determination; I never had consistency. It’s only been in the last year that I’ve had a full year of training and I was able to come out at the Indoors off the back of the only winter I’ve been through without having a significant injury. That showed in the fact I ran as well as I did.
It’s incredible to hear an elite athlete only running three days a week. How have you adjusted your training to work for your body? I just do the three sessions a week and maybe a drill session around that. I don’t do any long runs any more. I’d had so many calf tears and Achilles issues that something had to change. I had to figure out a different way to train because I knew I didn’t need the same running load as the other guys to compete at the world level. What I needed was consistency, because consistency trumps talent every time. The way to get that consistency was to focus on the key sessions and top up the rest with cross-training.
By limiting training to three days a week, I became consistent – you’re training for six weeks back to back and then those six weeks become six months. I was doing stuff in training and not feeling fatigued or tired; not feeling like my Achilles was going to snap or my calf was going to snap. It was the first year where I ran pain-free and I wasn’t considering, “Am I going to finish the race?” or “Am I going to get through the session?” That consistency, on top of everything I’d built as foundations, really rocketed me forward.
It’s refreshing to hear that it can be successful to work with the body you’ve got rather than try to fit in to the ‘standard’ way of training... There are different ways to make it work. But my 15 miles a week have to be taken with a pinch of salt because I do cross-train like an absolute animal. In fact, I’d argue that I cross train better than anyone in the world in my event. I’d back myself that I work harder than any of the other guys. While they do a 15-mile run, I’ll go out on the ElliptiGO. It’s a weird contraption, like a cross-trainer on wheels, and it weighs about 24kg, so it’s an absolute lump to get up a hill. It’s hard work. In fact, it’s about 33 percent harder than cycling and my challenge is to keep up with a group on bikes.
I know I’m getting a real workout because I often bonk. I push myself so hard that I start seeing stars and shaking, so I’m definitely working as hard; it’s just that my training takes a different form. And it shows that you don’t necessarily have to run big mileage, which is why a lot of athletes get injured.
Is all of your cross-training on the ElliptiGO? No, I mix it up. On a session day, I’ll do my session, then the gym, then I’ll hit the bike hard. On the days when I’m just cross-training, it’s the ElliptiGO, which is running without the impact. I don’t get the arm movement or the same range, but I’m getting everything else and I can almost guarantee I’m working my aerobic system harder than everybody else. I’m surprised it’s not used more by marathon runners because they ping out some serious mileage and the trauma their bodies take is insane.
Melissa Courtney-Bryant ran 4:30.85 at age 14, and as an adult 3:58.01 / 8:37.74 / 14:53.82. Jo Pavey ran 4:27.9 at age 14, and as an adult 4:01.79 / 8:31.27 / 14:39.96, without super shoes.
I'm not trying to justify how I improved 14 seconds in a year at age 30 to become one of the fastest in history in my event. At only an 8 second improvement Katir must feel hard done by.
15 posts per day on average
for almost 6 years
with mainly one topic
unbelievable
Deflection. So you have nothing to offer that would justify Bell's progression. Got it.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Your endless figures do nothing to explain how a 30 year old athlete dropped 14 seconds in a year to become of the fastest in history in her event. It is the absolute outlier. I doubt that there has been a top athlete achieving a comparable improvement over that distance in such a short period. It is almost twice the improvement that Katir made. She would be running 3:48 (she soon may) and you would still spout an attempted justification for it on the basis of "talent". All championship athletes have talent, but off the charts improvements speak of doping.
