My final wrinkle is that I distinguish between "best" and "greatest". I don't think they are the exact same thing though they are obviously intertwined with each other. I think it is absolutely possible that in a hypothetically era-neutral situation Hocker could beat Ryun, thus making him the better runner. But on the other hand I don't think one epic performance is simply enough for you to be the greatest.
no chance Hocker is better than Ryun...I submit this video as proof
I did say I thought it was just "possible" - not a given. And of course I understand the differences between 1967 and 2024 in terms of track surfaces, footwear - all of it, but I don't know exactly how to factor all that in and come up with a relative performance for Ryun because it's not quite that simple. I'm very confident he is a sub 3.30 runner in todays climate but I don't know how low it goes and 3.27.65 is pretty quick no matter how you want to contextualize it. The other thing I would say regarding Hocker is that just due to the way races are run these days, it's easy to forget that for a long time Hocker was actually seen as most dangerous in a race that was in that 1.58'ish zone at 800m and where he could drop a sub 39 in a 3.35 race. I never felt like a race where he went through in 1.52 (like Paris) he was at his best and turns out that was totally wrong. Point is, he's pretty complete on a wide spectrum of race types.
But it's just an opinion end of the day, which all any of this can be. Maybe Syd Maree or Steve Scott beat them both? (just kidding).
Jim Ryun. Start from 3:33.1. Now take a guy who closed 1200m in 2:46, even out the pacing (61 first lap), and you figure that's worth 3:29-30. Subtract 1/2s per lap for the track. That's about 3:27-28. Take off 2 seconds from 1960s spikes to 2024 superspikes. Now you are talking about 3:25-26. Now, give him 1/2s off per lap for drafting to 1000m, 3:24-25.
Hard to count him out on time or records. Only in medals does he fall short, but then he ran 3:38 at 7,000 feet for 2nd when Keino, born at elevation, was paced by Jipcho, and he beat Keino every other time, so it was a tough one for a sea level athlete to win. In 1972, he was certainly gypped out of the finals after the fall.
Ryun would have been an absolute nightmare for Jakob because Jakob lacks a really stellar kick and Ryun was probably the best kicker of all time (36/49s close in a 3:38 on dirt in 1967). Being paced to the last 200m at 3:27 pace, Ryun would have destroyed anyone left at that point.
No. He won a fast race by being the best survivor of the pace set by someone else. Centro controlled the race in a masterclass and was top of the game for years, global medallist, and significant character presence on the US circuit. Your move, @the king.
If both Centro and Hocker are in their prime, Hocker out kicks Centro in both Rio and Paris.
If Centro could somehow force others to run 70 second 400m pace, why didn’t he do so in every championship race?
World record is needed to be considered best ever American.
If both Centro and Hocker are in their prime, Hocker out kicks Centro in both Rio and Paris.
If Centro could somehow force others to run 70 second 400m pace, why didn’t he do so in every championship race?
World record is needed to be considered best ever American.
I also believe the medals also favor Ryun. Ryun was a surprise loser in the Olympics, both Centro and Hocker were surprise winners. That says right there that Ryun was in his time considered the best in the world. Centro and Hocker are considered fast runners but even with their golds barely anyone considers them the best in the world.
His record is 5-10 in favor of Nuguse. I find it hard to rank someone as the best US miler of all time when he continually loses. Ryun didn't. He dominated more than once, more than one year. He dominated 1967 and beated Keino twice, once in a WR times of 3:33 as well.
This post was edited 16 seconds after it was posted.
Does Hocker run 3:27 on a cinder track ? Check out Jim Ryan. First high school runner to break 4 minutes. His high school record 3:55 mile stood for 36 years. At 19 he set records in the half(1:44.9) and the mile (3:51:3). His mile record of 3:51.1 set at age 20 stood for 8 years. He also set an indoor record in the half (1:48.3). His 1500 meter world record (3:33.1)run in 1967 stood for 7 years. At the 1968 Olympic 1500 in Mexico City, he lost to Kip Keino, who ran an Olympic record(3:34.91) the lasted until 1984. All these records run on a cinder track. His American junior record 1500 (3:36.1) was broken by Hobbs Kessler. His American junior record in the 800 meters lasted 50 years. Greatness is not just winning Olympic medals. Congrats to Cole Hocker. But, he is not Jim Ryan
For future reference, Ryun's 3:55.3 HS record in San Diego, CA 1965 = new all-weather track and his 3:51.1 WR in Bakersfield, CA, 1967 = a beaten up clay track.
I am not ready to bestow such a title to Hocker yet. Sorry. Yes, he showed up and got it right on the right day and claimed the biggest prize in our sport, along with the Olympic Record to boot. You can easily claim that he achieved the greatest American Olympics or even major championship victory at men's 1500. Fine, that's undisputable.
But greatest US 1500m runner? I'm sorry but no. Centro in addition to winning Rio, was also a two time World Outdoor Championship medalist and a World Indoor Gold medalist. More pedigree at this point than Hocker. Like Hocker, Centro didn't perform well in the Diamond League, but it is a bit early in Hocker's career, though he's not much of a time trialer. A case can even be made for Ryun who put US distance running on the map.
One great performance doesn't make Cole the best US 1500m runner. The fact remains that outside of Paris, and World Indoors where he was second in a watered down field, Hocker has struggled to compete for the win in almost every pro race he's run against international competition. Just saying.
He is great. But he lacks some consistency. 8 outdoor finals in the 1500m/mile in 2024 (seven 1500Ms and one mile), two victories, five podiums. Kinda crazy that Hocker and Kerr so far has zero DL victories in the 1500m (Kerr has one DL victory in the mile)
He is great. But he lacks some consistency. 8 outdoor finals in the 1500m/mile in 2024 (seven 1500Ms and one mile), two victories, five podiums. Kinda crazy that Hocker and Kerr so far has zero DL victories in the 1500m (Kerr has one DL victory in the mile)
(He had two DNFs at the start of the season)
I think Hocker is pretty consistent. You are probably confusing the periodization of his training with inconsistency. He only raced in 2 meets while at his absolute best in 2024 (USAs and Paris). It sounds like he took his eye off the ball a tad (understandably) post 1500 final missing time for media appearance and/or soaking it in. I bet if he’d raced Monaco or had a more regular-post Paris run of things he’d have a bit closer performances to Paris.
He is great. But he lacks some consistency. 8 outdoor finals in the 1500m/mile in 2024 (seven 1500Ms and one mile), two victories, five podiums. Kinda crazy that Hocker and Kerr so far has zero DL victories in the 1500m (Kerr has one DL victory in the mile)
(He had two DNFs at the start of the season)
I think Hocker is pretty consistent. You are probably confusing the periodization of his training with inconsistency. He only raced in 2 meets while at his absolute best in 2024 (USAs and Paris). It sounds like he took his eye off the ball a tad (understandably) post 1500 final missing time for media appearance and/or soaking it in. I bet if he’d raced Monaco or had a more regular-post Paris run of things he’d have a bit closer performances to Paris.
To my recollection, the USA and Kenya engaged in some dodgy deal making regarding Lagat’s citizenship. In essence, there is strategic ambiguity about the exact date he became a U.S. citizen (probably to ensure he could compete for Kenya in 2004 Olympics). For that reason, there is also disagreement about which of his races he did or did not run while a U.S. citizen. Different organizations have decided to call the date differently, resulting in different official U.S. records.
Your recollection is completely wrong. There was no deal making. Lagat's citizenship went through faster than he thought it would and he became a US citizen before the 2004 Olympics. He kept it quiet and Kenya had no idea Lagat was a US citizen (and therefore no longer a Kenya citizen since Kenya doesn't allow dual citizenship).
This is correct. Every sentence. Both Nike and Lagat knew that Kenya wouldn't accept dual citizenship. The fact that Lagat didn't announce to the world his citizenship is proof that he intended to defraud the Olympic movement. I'll bet that USATF scumbags knew it too.
Kip Keino's 1500 gold medal performance was profound, hair-raising. But I believe the 1967 Jim Ryun would have won that race, even at 7000+ in altitude. Well, they didn't hold the Olympics in '67.
Medals are important, world records are important, and head to head competition is perhaps most important.
In 1966 and 1967, Ryun owned Keino over the 1500m, one mile and the two mile. Kip tried every tactic on Jim, and got trounced in each race.
Cole Hocker is amazing, I'm a huge fan. I was screaming my head off at the TV in the final 50m of the Olympic 1500 last summer! Kerr was almost perfect, but Cole got the job done. I was doubter prior to the trials in '21! He proved himself in that race. But I'd still call Ryun the U.S. 1500/mile GOAT, but I expect Hocker to surpass him soon.
Comparing times from different eras is a lousy barometer of greatness; time is relative, not an absolute. Read "The Order of Time" by Italian physicist Carlo Rivelli, it makes sense of contemporary physics. I've read it like 3 times, and each read peels more layers off the onion.
Your recollection is completely wrong. There was no deal making. Lagat's citizenship went through faster than he thought it would and he became a US citizen before the 2004 Olympics. He kept it quiet and Kenya had no idea Lagat was a US citizen (and therefore no longer a Kenya citizen since Kenya doesn't allow dual citizenship).
This is correct. Every sentence. Both Nike and Lagat knew that Kenya wouldn't accept dual citizenship. The fact that Lagat didn't announce to the world his citizenship is proof that he intended to defraud the Olympic movement. I'll bet that USATF scumbags knew it too.
So, because of external bureaucracy working faster than expected, from no cause of his own, Lagat should have sacrificed his prime Olympics by announcing to Kenya that he was an American citizen, and thus being prevented from running for Kenya or the U.S.? We know that Kenya would not have permitted him to compete for the U.S., as they imposed a one year waiting period on him after the Olympics, so that he wasn't able to compete in the 2005 World Champs (thus giving the world the drug cheat Rashid Ramzi's gold in the 1500m). And he had been kept out of the 2003 World's because of the A sample test when the B sample ended up clearing him from any use of synthetic EPO. How much personal sacrifice at the height of his career was appropriate for him? You opposed the 1980 Boycott, naturally, since it punished athletes with no complicity in anything. Why punish Lagat for events not of his own doing?
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.
