I think what's weird is we've seen the way PEDs impacted both the sprints and distances in the 80s/90s but I don't feel the same thing happened in the 800 (on the men's side, at least). Seb Coe's two world records from 1979 and 1981 were pretty much untouchable except for a prime Joachim Cruz in 1984. We know for a fact that during that time people would've had access to a plethora of anabolics and EPO, yet that still only produced guys in the 1:43s.
I'm not going to say that Coe was 100% clean but you would think that a whole generation of athletes with more advanced doping would be able to run faster than some 5'9" British miler. It wasn't until Kipketer came along that the times really moved forward but, again, it was really just him, while guys stuck around 1:43s and occasional 1:42s. When I checked WA's 800m performance list, 1:43.00 is still the 110th performance of all time. The same ranked performance list on the 1500 side is Cram's 3:29.67 WR from 1985. I'm not sure if the 800 has just been incredibly lucky to have some truly groundbreaking performances from the likes of Coe, Snell, Rudisha, and Kipketer (not to mention a few others who didn't get the WR) or what is going on but the staying power of some of these times, despite more prevalent doping, equipment advancements, and the general progression of training is still staggering to me. I'll reiterate again, Steve Cram's 1985 WR 1500 is 110th on the all time performance list, while Coe's world record 800 set 4 years earlier is still 10th.
A few observations from the all-time list:
65% of the men who ever ran sub-1:43 only did so for one season. 88% of the men who ever ran sub-1:43 only did so for two seasons. The 800 is a young man's game; the median age to run sub-1:43 for the first time is 23. 6 of the 7 guys who ran sub-1:43 for the first time this season are on the old side at 25+. Only Rotich (b. 1989) and Ndururi (b. 1969) ran sub-1:43 for the first time at 25+ and backed it up with another sub-1:43 season. TL;DR Hoppel and co. should enjoy this season while it lasts.
I know that it's more a case of the 800m standards being unfathomably bad for a number of years, but why have the times suddenly improved so markedly? And not just at the top end. There are already more sub 1:45 guys this year than in the entire previous seasons.
Are guys just forcing each other to up their game? The super shoes suddenly working for the 800m? Or something more sinister?
TBH, it reminds me of 83/84 when HGH came out and suddenly so many guys (particularly American based) were running 1:43.
Its called being on performance enhancing drugs, and lots of them. Theyre on cocktails of steroids and EPO ,and its very obvious from looking at their arms,legs,shoulders,and back muscles.
I know that it's more a case of the 800m standards being unfathomably bad for a number of years, but why have the times suddenly improved so markedly? And not just at the top end. There are already more sub 1:45 guys this year than in the entire previous seasons.
Are guys just forcing each other to up their game? The super shoes suddenly working for the 800m? Or something more sinister?
TBH, it reminds me of 83/84 when HGH came out and suddenly so many guys (particularly American based) were running 1:43.
It’s called being on performance enhancing drugs, and lots of them. Theyre on cocktails of steroids and EPO ,and it’s very obvious from looking at their arms,legs,shoulders,and back muscles.
I don’t understand why people deny deny deny.
All the muscles around the androgen receptors are big and very defined, muscles that aren’t required to be big for 800m running, their bodies are as lean as bodybuilders that feel physically sick for weeks in order to hit that bodyfat percentage, and they are splitting roughly 49-52 after being relatively non factor runners until this year. They don’t even look gassed at the end.
I know it’s not fun to think they are all cheating but they are all cheating.
Nigel Amos was on PED when he medaled in Olympics in 2012 but wasn't caught until 2023 and banned. He is 30 years old now. Shows you they have work to do on the testing front.
I disagree. I think he was an age cheat in 2012 but I don't think he was doping.
I think he started doping around 2022 when he suddenly stopped tightening up at the end of races. Go back and watch some of his races right before he was banned. I remember watching it at the time and thinking how great it was that he had stopped straining in the last 100 like that, which was basically his trademark at that point.
My guess: Amos realized his career was on the downturn. Desperate to maintain any of the momentum he still had and hang on for another Olympic cycle, he started doping, and got caught as a result.
Amos's suspension in 2022 was not without foreshadowing. I found the following reports, the first from 2013, and the second from 2015, creating suspicion about Nijel Amos who later was suspended for three years starting in 2022:
Creatine loading is the process of your body becoming saturated with the stuff. If you take 3g a day, it might take many weeks, like 3, 4, or 5 to become fully saturated, or "loaded." If you take 5g/day, most people say it takes about two weeks. Some people take more so they reach that point faster. No matter what, you will gain the water weight.
Disclaimer: I do not believe athletes are finally just discovering creatine and that's why we're seeing these times. It's not the worst supplement to take for the 800, but it WILL make you gain a few lbs of water weight. It maybe makes sense to take in the pre-season if you're a bit more serious about the weightroom and trying to gain muscle mass.
I don’t think 1-2 lbs of water weight from creatine is that big of a deal for these guys…
Again, you really don't know how creatine works.
Anything from 1-5lbs is normal. Obviously depends on how big you are already. I'm about the same size as these guys. I took creatine for a bit one offseason. Gained about 4lbs pretty quickly. 4lbs when you weigh 145lbs is a good amount.
I don’t think 1-2 lbs of water weight from creatine is that big of a deal for these guys…
Again, you really don't know how creatine works.
Anything from 1-5lbs is normal. Obviously depends on how big you are already. I'm about the same size as these guys. I took creatine for a bit one offseason. Gained about 4lbs pretty quickly. 4lbs when you weigh 145lbs is a good amount.
Not my, or my teammates, experience at all. We’re all 130-150 lbs. and the most any of us gained was 3 lbs. most only gained 1 or 2 lbs.
Anything from 1-5lbs is normal. Obviously depends on how big you are already. I'm about the same size as these guys. I took creatine for a bit one offseason. Gained about 4lbs pretty quickly. 4lbs when you weigh 145lbs is a good amount.
Not my, or my teammates, experience at all. We’re all 130-150 lbs. and the most any of us gained was 3 lbs. most only gained 1 or 2 lbs.
So, first you were wrong on how creatine loading works.
Now you're saying a teammate gained 3lbs as if that's an anomaly. If they weighed 150lbs that's 2%. That's a very normal amount of weight to gain:
One week of creatine supplementation increased TBW as detected by the InBody 770 device. Changes in body composition that occurred due to the increase in TBW were detected as an increase in FFM measured by SF-BIA, MF-BIA, and...
Confounding factors for why you or others only gained 1-2lbs could be: you took too small of an amount for too short of a time, so you never finished loading. You may be on the low end of potential water-weight gain from creatine due to natural factors.
2% change in bodyweight doesn't matter? Especially when that weight is just dead weight, it's from water. When we have athletes likely taking supplements to suppress hunger and stay as absolutely lean as possible?
I think it's mostly coincidence really. Things come and go. That and it's an Olympic year and the last Olympics was kinda fake.
The reality is, we have 4 really good guys at the top of the game now: Hoppel, Sedjati, Arop, and Waynoni. 4 people. That's it. That's all it takes to go from a depression to hot times. Just 4 people reaching their primes at the same time. When you have a few really good people, they pull everyone else along too.
This thread has aged INCREDIBLY well but this post most certainly didn't age well.
For those of you thinking it's drugs, why would the whole world decide to get on drugs at the same time suddenly - guys from all across the globe with no connections to each other?
I think it's mostly coincidence really. Things come and go. That and it's an Olympic year and the last Olympics was kinda fake.
The reality is, we have 4 really good guys at the top of the game now: Hoppel, Sedjati, Arop, and Waynoni. 4 people. That's it. That's all it takes to go from a depression to hot times. Just 4 people reaching their primes at the same time. When you have a few really good people, they pull everyone else along too.
This thread has aged INCREDIBLY well but this post most certainly didn't age well.
For those of you thinking it's drugs, why would the whole world decide to get on drugs at the same time suddenly - guys from all across the globe with no connections to each other?
Because it's an Olympic year? Because the track world is incredibly small and you may not directly be connected to someone but your coach knows their agent or some other close connection? Because things like BALCO happened where tons of unaffiliated athletes bought drugs from the same place?
I think it's mostly coincidence really. Things come and go. That and it's an Olympic year and the last Olympics was kinda fake.
The reality is, we have 4 really good guys at the top of the game now: Hoppel, Sedjati, Arop, and Waynoni. 4 people. That's it. That's all it takes to go from a depression to hot times. Just 4 people reaching their primes at the same time. When you have a few really good people, they pull everyone else along too.
This thread has aged INCREDIBLY well but this post most certainly didn't age well.
For those of you thinking it's drugs, why would the whole world decide to get on drugs at the same time suddenly - guys from all across the globe with no connections to each other?
I don't think they are all on drugs. I think there are a combination of young talents (Wanyoni, Kidali, Kessler), top runners returning to form (Kinyamal, Hoppel, Arop, Kramer)..........and dopers (Sedjati, Tual, Habz, Crestan).
I think it's mostly coincidence really. Things come and go. That and it's an Olympic year and the last Olympics was kinda fake.
The reality is, we have 4 really good guys at the top of the game now: Hoppel, Sedjati, Arop, and Waynoni. 4 people. That's it. That's all it takes to go from a depression to hot times. Just 4 people reaching their primes at the same time. When you have a few really good people, they pull everyone else along too.
This thread has aged INCREDIBLY well but this post most certainly didn't age well.
For those of you thinking it's drugs, why would the whole world decide to get on drugs at the same time suddenly - guys from all across the globe with no connections to each other?
Why wouldnt they? competition is fierce,and olympic medals are up for grabs. They dont need to be connected to each other. A win at all cost mentality.
I think it's mostly coincidence really. Things come and go. That and it's an Olympic year and the last Olympics was kinda fake.
The reality is, we have 4 really good guys at the top of the game now: Hoppel, Sedjati, Arop, and Waynoni. 4 people. That's it. That's all it takes to go from a depression to hot times. Just 4 people reaching their primes at the same time. When you have a few really good people, they pull everyone else along too.
This thread has aged INCREDIBLY well but this post most certainly didn't age well.
For those of you thinking it's drugs, why would the whole world decide to get on drugs at the same time suddenly - guys from all across the globe with no connections to each other?
After watching this weekend, this thread was the first thing I thought of. Wow! A slew of sub 1:42 and 1:42 performances! A few things that stood out to me when watching initially and watching it back were as follows:
1. Sedjati wore the original Dragonflys. It had stood out to me that the 800 seemed to be dominated lately by adidas athletes in the new Ambitions and I thought maybe adidas had cracked the 800 super spike. But now it looks like I was giving way too much credit to the footwear, as Sedjati didn't even have on the latest Dragonfly 2 or Dragonfly elite (or whatever they call the carbon dragonfly now).
2. I like Tual and have been following him for a bit but this is a very surprising drop (suspicious is another way to phrase it). He was someone I would consider symptomatic of where the 800 was in the current era, floating around low 1:44 and cracking it this season. Now, he's sub 1:42 and smashed Pierre-Ambroise Bosse's French record by like a full second. Meanwhile, Benjamin Robert was also in this race and came in with a very similar profile to Tual but he only ran 1:44. It's very strange to me that you'd have two guys who have been pretty close in the upper 1:43s/low 1:44s have such different races out there. Like Tual was able to hang on just behind Wanyonyi as they went out in 48 high and still hung tough with the leaders.
3. Someone already mentioned the great Ivo Van Damme's record going down after 48 years but it is still crazy to me how long 800 records stick around. I know Belgium hasn't had the greatest middle distance tradition after Van Damme but still for an event to have so many long-standing records is just really weird. Also I had no idea who this guy was before this race, so this was a big shock!
1. Sedjati wore the original Dragonflys. It had stood out to me that the 800 seemed to be dominated lately by adidas athletes in the new Ambitions and I thought maybe adidas had cracked the 800 super spike. But now it looks like I was giving way too much credit to the footwear, as Sedjati didn't even have on the latest Dragonfly 2 or Dragonfly elite (or whatever they call the carbon dragonfly now).
I raced the 800 in both the original Dragonflys and the newer Ambition.
Dragonfly felt too squishy for me. Ambition felt just right. Neither really felt "super" though.
Wearing the Saucony road super shoe felt like cheating to me though. I noticed a huge drop in my workout times on the road. Track stuff stayed the same.
The only one I would bet money on is clean in yesterdays race is Andreas Kramer.
Knowing what we know about Kenya, they could very well be, but Wanyoni is 19 and Kidali is 21, and both of those ages are at the point where you would actually expect big performance drops by a top runner. Kinyamal did PR, but he's been consistently one of the top 800 meter guys in the world since he was 20, and it wasn't that big of a PR. In general, I like giving athletes the benefit of the doubt if there aren't outrageous performance drops or known connections to dopers.
Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win a LetsRun t-shirt.Help us build the best running shoe review site for a chance to win one of 10 LetsRun t-shirts.
