You might as well ask a biologist or geneticist. The answer is, it's complicated. If you think that XY = man and XX = woman then I have news for you: the world is considerably more complicated than you imagine.
There are women walking around today who were identified at birth as women. They have lady bits. They have always assumed they are women and everyone around them assumes they are women. They look like women. They also have XY chromosomes. Read up on CAIS and then tell me that man/woman is a simple distinction.
Sex-determining Region Y gene = man and no Sex-determining Region Y gene = woman. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
Except no one in the real world cares about this definition, leave alone employ it any manner. Literally no organization worth anything. It’s entirely in your little head, and in the heads of other incelforumfolk.
You might as well ask a biologist or geneticist. The answer is, it's complicated. If you think that XY = man and XX = woman then I have news for you: the world is considerably more complicated than you imagine.
There are women walking around today who were identified at birth as women. They have lady bits. They have always assumed they are women and everyone around them assumes they are women. They look like women. They also have XY chromosomes. Read up on CAIS and then tell me that man/woman is a simple distinction.
If you look at it that way then nothing is anything anyone says. A few exceptions like this only matter in Olympic sports, the rest or real life, this exception you gave…. well for all practical and reasonable reasons they are women
IOC stopped chromosome test nearly three decades ago, and no credible sports organization defines human sex by chromosome. And CAS does not agree with your intesexphobia.
Any law that defines human sex by chromosome (like that HR734) will be challenged and defeated in the court.
I thought you were a reasonable person. I don't understand why you have to advocate this chromosome fundamentalism.
Oh stop with the ridiculous charges of "phobia." A phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of, or aversion to, something. From what I've seen, a lot of men who post on LRC could accurately be described as afflicted with homophobia - especially as regards male homosexuality. But "intersexphobia"? Nah.
Even amongst the motlely crew who post on LRC, I think you're unilkely to find anyone who feels horror, terror and hatred towards people with DSDs simply because they have DSDs.
Some LRC posters might dislike some big-name sports stars with DSDs like Caster Semenya coz of their individual personalities and behaviors. After all, people with DSDs can be grating or jerks just like anyone else. But if any of us were to find outselves in the vicinity of Semenya and other famous people known to have DSDs - like Francine Niyonsaba, Erick Schinnegger or Barbra Banda - I doubt that a single soul even from LRC would react by having an impulse to scream "Eek!" and run the other way as fast as we could coz we're gripped with an overwhelming, irrational fear and/or aversion. I similarly doubt anyone would feel an urge to be abusive or mean to the individual simply for having a DSD.
I personally have never felt fear or aversion when I've met people with DSDs. I've been friendly with someone with CAIS since my college days, and once I dated someone who turned out to have very unsual gentials due to the same DSD condition that Caster Semenya has.
When I found out through CVS that I was pregnant with a fetus with a condition considered a DSD, Turner syndrome, I didn't feel fear or aversion, nor did my partner or the other family members we shared that information with. All of us were very sad when I miscarried that baby.
BTW, your posts are starting to sound eerily similar to fickle's. Are you the same guy? Are fickle, pickle, quickle etc all sock puppets of yours?
Blokes like you should learn how language works first. Verbosa seems to think the etymological origins of a word reflect its literal meaning. No wonder its reading comprehension is laughable.
Oh stop with the ridiculous charges of "phobia." A phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of, or aversion to, something. From what I've seen, a lot of men who post on LRC could accurately be described as afflicted with homophobia - especially as regards male homosexuality. But "intersexphobia"? Nah.
Even amongst the motlely crew who post on LRC, I think you're unilkely to find anyone who feels horror, terror and hatred towards people with DSDs simply because they have DSDs.
I think it IS irrational to keep repeating "XX and XY" by willfully ignoring the existence of people with DSD and insisting that no person with X chromosome should ever be allowed to compete as a woman.
I think this kneejerk reaction partly comes from their experience with Semenya. Many people on this board had probably never heard of DSD until Semenya caused controversy 15 years ago. So whenever they see DSD, they instantly think about Semenya. "An athlete with DSD = someone like Semenya -> should not be allowed to compete as a woman" is their visceral reaction.
They fear that allowing anyone with Y chromosome to compete as a women will inevitably lead to a situation like women's 800m in Rio, and therefore it must be stopped at any cost. This ignores the complexity of DSD and how different types of DSD affect athletic performance differently. Sports organizations like World Athletics have figured that out. But they refuse to accept that because it violates their psychological comfort with simplicity. They would rather be comfortable by dehumanizing marginalized people. "They don't count because they are a small minority. So why should we care? It just works fine for the 99% of us."
XX and XY conservatively includes over 98% of the world's population. We can find ways to place the remaining less than 2% within appropriate sporting contexts on a case-by-case basis.
"{Competing according to one's gender identity works just fine for at least 98% of the world's population. We can find ways to place the remaining less than 2% within appropriate contexts on a case-by-case basis."
You would not be okay with the above. right? But why are you against deciding the eligibility of trans athletes on a case-by-case basis?
Baseball has rules for situations that do not happen in 98% of the games. So why don't we decide those situations on a case-by-case basis? Because that would give too much discretion to the umpire. So they need those obscure rules for situations that rarely happen.
So why shouldn't we have rules that cover all kinds of different DSD that athletes might have?
Thanks for the link. This is a solid decision by CAS.
Basically, what Thomas should have done is to try to register with USA Swimming as a female competitor in "Elite Events" and challenge the USA Swimming rule if rejected.
In that case, I think the jurisdiction of the case would belong to the US federal court, unless both parties decide to move it to CAS.
If this case had been brought against USA Swimming in the federal court, we would have seen a decision on the substance of the policy. I don't think Thomas could have won that battle. And maybe that's why Thomas sued World Aquatics instead of USA Swimming.
Sex-determining Region Y gene = man and no Sex-determining Region Y gene = woman. Doesn't get much simpler than that.
Except no one in the real world cares about this definition, leave alone employ it any manner. Literally no organization worth anything. It’s entirely in your little head, and in the heads of other incelforumfolk.
Everyone who doesn't subscribe to the gender identity pseudoscientific ideology believes in that definition. They might still believe sex is determined by chromosomes, not the SRY-gene contained on the Y chromone, but they still believe that biological characteristics divides the sexes and not one's belief about which social roles they'd prefer to perform.
In fairness, there are still things to litigate in cases like that one.
But once you go through puberty, it’s a done deal. Too many residual benefits. It’s no different than taking PEDs and then going off of them and claiming you aren’t cheating because you are currently clean.
But we also need to keep a look out for the obvious cases like this one where it’s clearly just a man saying they are a woman and they really aren’t, and probably don’t even have gender dysphoria issues, but just can’t handle losing.
No such dealbreaker. The vast majority of men who go through puberty don’t come anywhere close to elite female athletes in performance.
Your last para gives your biases away.
Right but if I (with my 2:57 marathon PD) took PEDs, I still wouldn’t ’come anywhere close to elite female athletes in performance.’ Doesn’t mean the PEDs didn’t give me an unfair boost in performance.
Oh stop with the ridiculous charges of "phobia." A phobia is an extreme or irrational fear of, or aversion to, something. From what I've seen, a lot of men who post on LRC could accurately be described as afflicted with homophobia - especially as regards male homosexuality. But "intersexphobia"? Nah.
Even amongst the motlely crew who post on LRC, I think you're unilkely to find anyone who feels horror, terror and hatred towards people with DSDs simply because they have DSDs.
I think it IS irrational to keep repeating "XX and XY" by willfully ignoring the existence of people with DSD and insisting that no person with X chromosome should ever be allowed to compete as a woman.
I think this kneejerk reaction partly comes from their experience with Semenya. Many people on this board had probably never heard of DSD until Semenya caused controversy 15 years ago. So whenever they see DSD, they instantly think about Semenya. "An athlete with DSD = someone like Semenya -> should not be allowed to compete as a woman" is their visceral reaction.
They fear that allowing anyone with Y chromosome to compete as a women will inevitably lead to a situation like women's 800m in Rio, and therefore it must be stopped at any cost. This ignores the complexity of DSD and how different types of DSD affect athletic performance differently. Sports organizations like World Athletics have figured that out. But they refuse to accept that because it violates their psychological comfort with simplicity. They would rather be comfortable by dehumanizing marginalized people. "They don't count because they are a small minority. So why should we care? It just works fine for the 99% of us."
Yes, we need to stop letting chromosomes determine sex!!!!
And we need to START letting the SEX-DETERMINING REGION Y PROTEINdetermine sex.
Great thinking, Hobby, good job remembering basic facts from high school biology class.
I agree with you that elected Democrats are lagging the voters in seeing the problem with allowing XY humans to participate against XX humans in girls' and women's sports. I am hoping that the rapidly changing poll numbers and the decisions bygoverning bodies in sports and CAS, and the increasing number of trans girls and women denying XX humans the right to participate fairly (and public outcry about it) will work to get them on the right side of this issue.
Please stop using this intersexphobic language.
IOC stopped chromosome test nearly three decades ago, and no credible sports organization defines human sex by chromosome. And CAS does not agree with your intesexphobia.
Any law that defines human sex by chromosome (like that HR734) will be challenged and defeated in the court.
I thought you were a reasonable person. I don't understand why you have to advocate this chromosome fundamentalism.
Well over 98.3% of people are not intersex nor have any other conditions that can affect it and most of them don't get offended by minor errors in phrasing by people online.
No such dealbreaker. The vast majority of men who go through puberty don’t come anywhere close to elite female athletes in performance.
Your last para gives your biases away.
Right but if I (with my 2:57 marathon PD) took PEDs, I still wouldn’t ’come anywhere close to elite female athletes in performance.’ Doesn’t mean the PEDs didn’t give me an unfair boost in performance.
Good, looks like you don’t disagree with anything I actually said.
Focus. Everyone agrees PEDs are unfair and disallowed, including WA, the same governing body that considers as female and allows Transgender Females to participate as such.
The didn't actually technically rule biological males can't compete against women. They just ruled that Thomas had no standing to bring the case as Thomas wasn't an elite swimmer when Thomas filed the case.
Except no one in the real world cares about this definition, leave alone employ it any manner. Literally no organization worth anything. It’s entirely in your little head, and in the heads of other incelforumfolk.
Everyone who doesn't subscribe to the gender identity pseudoscientific ideology believes in that definition. They might still believe sex is determined by chromosomes, not the SRY-gene contained on the Y chromone, but they still believe that biological characteristics divides the sexes and not one's belief about which social roles they'd prefer to perform.
I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t believe the part in bold.
Institutions in power honor gender, which includes the constitution, government, large corporations, sporting regulatory bodies, places of education, and pretty much anything that anyone cares about in the real world. Glad we agree on that and the lack of support for SRY supremacy.
Big difference between caster and Lia. I’m ok with caster competing as a woman because she is one. Lia is a man. Caster competing isn’t any less fair than shaq O’Neil competing. He isn’t a man, he is a freakish superman and had a huge advantage over regular men. That is life, most dominate athletes have some kind of genetic anomaly that 99.9 % of humans don’t have, otherwise they wouldn’t dominate.
The solution to all of this is to create a trans division. They can compete against each other and it will be a level playing field.
That’s naive. When that’s been done, the incels here then predictably complain about prize money. There is some degree of zero-sumness to the total amount of money in the sport, and if not for money, it’s just silly running around, so nobody cares anyway.
A third category doesn’t fix the problem, which is primarily folks here moaning about things that don’t affect their lives at all.
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