Part of the reason for this issue, is that, in some cases, it is not “simple.” my friend is a pediatric surgeon and says he says many cases where things don’t fall into the “simple” baskets you’re basing your framing on.
As I understand things intersex conditions are a different conversation to an XY individual who has usual physical development wanting to be female
Yes. But the existence of people with intersex conditions indicates that "gender" is a social construct.
Certain individuals with 46XY DSD have been assigned female at birth, and have been raised as female even when their karyotype is known. (CAIS and Swyer Syndrome have been known since 1950s.) Why? Because that's convenient for the society. Treating them as males would cause all kinds of inconvenience and awkwardness both for themselves and for the rest of us. So we have collectively decided to treat them as females. It just happens that most of them identify as females. But respecting their self-identity was never the main reason for this decision.
It's different for trans women. Obviously, they want to be treated as women. And it is also convenient for the rest of us to treat some of them as female in some circumstances. So the two big questions are (1) what those different circumstances are, and (2) which trans women should be treated as female in each of the circumstances.
For example, I am perfectly fine with using pronouns (and names) based on self-identity. After all, we call one another with something other than our birth names all the time. Why should it be any different with trans people?
Sports are different. And I will leave that judgement to people who know exercise physiology far better than I do. (i.e. people who drafted the policies for World Aquatics and World Athletics.) I certainly do not want to leave it to the elected officials whose primary interest is to appeal to their voters.
Because we have entered the land of partisan politics to the extreme. People are only interested in their side and nothing else. Common sense, on both sides, has been thrown out the window. Why do people support Trump? Because he represents everything opposite the left. Why do people support Biden? Because he represents everything opposite the right. This is the world we live in now. Very few people can find common ground. Why will people refuse to agree with you? Because your side represents the far right (according to them) and they will not align themselves with anything that is considered as such.
There is good and evil, right and left/wrong. There is no middle ground. There are Democrats pushing for WW III with Russia/China, and there was true peace for the first time in long long time under Trump. Either mental illness is called out and treated for what it is, or every child is groomed and gaslighted into mental illness in evey school across the nation and extended empire. You're either with us, Americans, or with the Democrats.
Peace under Trump? Idk he did everything he could to piss off as many countries as possible(sanctions on everyone including intl allies).
As a trans woman, I find posts like this very problematic. It assumes that males have an advantage in sports and- last time I checked- trans women didn't win every single race. I recently entered a woman's only 10k after a spell of injury and I barely even podiumed. So quit the histrionics- trans women belong in sport and we don't need your permission.
I've read that testosterone blockers and estrogen will slow down a trans woman,dramatically. I don't know by how much,but i do know they don't run nearly as fast. Im curious as to how much.
The short answer is that we don't know. And we won't know unless we allow them to compete. In which division and under what circumstances are open questions.
Collecting medical data from trans athletes would be difficult. But we could at least observe their performance level over years. We may not collect enough data to draw any conclusion, but at least some data are better than none.
conservatives screw up 3 ways here. first, you're neglecting the same school districts allow the kids to live their reality 7 hours of the school day before you start wanting to butt in for the sports part. they dress as girls, are referred to as girls, go to the bathroom as though one, etc. you then want to pout about sports. you're 7 hours late, dude. catch up. they have been a girl for school purposes since 7 am.
second, you resist efforts to reconfigure things at two levels.
(a) it's gotta be 2 boxes and not 3 with a nonbinary or open box
(b) it's gotta be the traditional understanding of 2 boxes.
re the 3rd box, it's the solution. the deal is in "traditional" times wheelchair johnny did not compete, trans tina was either closeted or excluded, and special olympics sal is off in a separate event someplace. times have changed, we have kids wanting to mainstream, it's time for an open 3rd category with special olympics, trans, wheelchairs, and maybe even JV kids who want to step up to varsity in a non-traditional category.
here's the deal. buried beneath the bull patties is you want them not just out of sports but browbeaten back into what they were. this is over. times have changed. you conservatives need some sort of progressive solution other than "back in the closet." to me the way that makes the participants happy without conservative crybabying is a 3rd category.
and the reality is, when i look at my area meet, maybe 1 kid in the whole meet signs up wheelchair. maybe 1 kid signs up 3rd category locally or even in the whole state. it's not some crisis for 1 trans kid in a state to compete in the whole track system in an event or two out of all classes, both genders. i am offering you 3 boxes to indulge you somewhat. if you want to insist you can watch this keep happening, as it's the progressive, dignity-affirming response to your own insistence on 2 boxes.
To address your arguments, as a woman who is not 'conservative':
"they dress as girls" It's sexist and stereotypical to say that dressing a certain way makes one a girl.
"they are referred to as girls": In most cases, only because people are being polite or are being compelled to refer to boys as girls. They don't actually believe it.
"they go to the bathroom as one":...unless they're peeing out of a female urethra they quite literally do not.
"they have been a girl for school purposes": No. They have not been a girl for one second. Do you know how it actually feels to be a girl? The actual physical existence of being a high school girl, dealing with periods, developing breasts and hips, maybe issues from hormonal birth control?
"you conservatives need some sort of solution other than 'back in the closet'": The solution is completely obvious and 'conservatives' are not the ones struggling to see it. People can 'identify' however they wish but it does not make them what they wish to be. A boy is perfectly free to 'identify' as a girl, just as everyone has a right to their personal beliefs. They don't have the right to force others to cater to those beliefs however. Identify however you wish, but compete with your sex because that is reality, where the rest of us live.
That is implicitly what the phobes here are rooting for: for the government to determine gender. If one insists that there are only two classes and everyone has to be straitjacketed into one or the other, there will be conflict at the edges that the government will have to adjudicate.
As a trans woman, this post is violence. Your use of the term 'Straitjacketed into one or the other' suggests that trans people are mentally insane. Shame on you.
If you actually read the post instead of seeing one word and calling it transphobic, you would see they are saying if the government says there are 2 genders people would oppose it and would be forced and declared A or B. That is the same thing you seem to have been saying. I wish people would carefully read posts b4 saying ¨shame on you¨ because they saw one word.
No one in their right mind would want the government to determine gender for you. No one wants the gov't to tell you how long your hair can or can't be. No one wants the government to tell you what soap you can use or what pants you have to wear. No one wants the gov't to tell you what name you have to use.
All that said, a reasonable person can look at gender separated sports and see the issue with mixing biological males into female events. I haven't seen a good answer yet but leave that to people who have thought through the issue better than you.
That is implicitly what the phobes here are rooting for: for the government to determine gender. If one insists that there are only two classes and everyone has to be straitjacketed into one or the other, there will be conflict at the edges that the government will have to adjudicate.
I can't speak for others on this board, but what I'm rooting for is a reprise of the days when both sexes felt free to have a wide range of "gender expression" and when "gender bending" was widely accepted, but no one pretended that anyone's gender expression changed their sex.
I'd love for a return to a social climate in which teenage boys and men could experiment with fashion, hair and cosmetics like they've once did and they felt confident, safe and secure going out and about wearing long hair, makeup and "feminine" clothes and accessories - the way blokes like Todd Rundgren, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, Rod Stewart, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Phil Oakey, Steven Tyler, Vince Neal, Jon Bon Jovi, Robert Smith, Marilyn Peter Robinson and many more did in the 70s and 80s, and the way wealthy men did in Europe in the 16th, 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries. But I wish guys today could get into "gender expression" like this without pretending that it somehow turns them into girls and women and entitles them to muscle in on female sports and spaces.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
That is implicitly what the phobes here are rooting for: for the government to determine gender. If one insists that there are only two classes and everyone has to be straitjacketed into one or the other, there will be conflict at the edges that the government will have to adjudicate.
I can't speak for others on this board, but what I'm rooting for is a reprise of the days when both sexes felt free to have a wide range of "gender expression" and when "gender bending" was widely accepted, but no one pretended that anyone's gender expression changed their sex.
I'd love for a return to a social climate in which teenage boys and men could experiment with fashion, hair and cosmetics like they've once did and they felt confident, safe and secure going out and about wearing long hair, makeup and "feminine" clothes and accessories - the way blokes like Todd Rundgren, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, Rod Stewart, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Phil Oakey, Steven Tyler, Vince Neal, Jon Bon Jovi, Robert Smith, Marilyn Peter Robinson and many more did in the 70s and 80s, and the way wealthy men did in Europe in the 16th, 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries. But I wish guys today could get into "gender expression" like this without pretending that it somehow turns them into girls and women and entitles them to muscle in on female sports and spaces.
Some examples of the sort of male "gender expression" I'm a huge fan of:
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The short answer is that we don't know. And we won't know unless we allow them to compete. In which division and under what circumstances are open questions.
Collecting medical data from trans athletes would be difficult. But we could at least observe their performance level over years. We may not collect enough data to draw any conclusion, but at least some data are better than none.
Uhh excuse me...as a trans athlete you are NOT welcome to my medical records, stay out of my healthcare
Simply do not allow XX and XY chromosome individuals to compete together. It doesn't matter what they look like, the form of their genitals, their pronoun, or how they feel. XX vs XY is a very clear biological distinction that forms the basis for an easy rule.
A tiny sliver of the population may suffer, but it's the fairest for the vast majority. And by a tiny sliver, I mean XY individuals who suck at sports and want to still compete. And by suffer, I mean they had formed expectations that they could compete against XX individuals. Take away that expectation via this rule, and they suffer much less as they don't even entertain the silly idea. And if they suck at sports relative to other XY individuals, well they are in great company.
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
So you think the concept of "man" and "woman" have remained static? How willfully ignorant can you be?u
Until the last roughly 100 years the overwhelming majority of humans were preoccupied with getting enough food and resources to stay alive. Self-obsessional navel-gazing about gender was not something people had the time or inclination to do.
More made up stuff. Non-gender conforming people have existed since the beginning of humanity.
I'd love for a return to a social climate in which teenage boys and men could experiment with fashion, hair and cosmetics like they've once did and they felt confident, safe and secure going out and about wearing long hair, makeup and "feminine" clothes and accessories - the way blokes like Todd Rundgren, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, Rod Stewart, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Phil Oakey, Steven Tyler, Vince Neal, Jon Bon Jovi, Robert Smith, Marilyn Peter Robinson and many more did in the 70s and 80s, and the way wealthy men did in Europe in the 16th, 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries. But I wish guys today could get into "gender expression" like this without pretending that it somehow turns them into girls and women and entitles them to muscle in on female sports and spaces.
Huh? They still do. And they don't identify themselves as women / girls. You can find many of them on Instagram. For them, gender expression is the end itself.
For trans women / girls, gender expression is a means to an end. When I see Courtney Act's interview of Georgie Stone, the difference between the two is clear to me.
That is implicitly what the phobes here are rooting for: for the government to determine gender. If one insists that there are only two classes and everyone has to be straitjacketed into one or the other, there will be conflict at the edges that the government will have to adjudicate.
I can't speak for others on this board, but what I'm rooting for is a reprise of the days when both sexes felt free to have a wide range of "gender expression" and when "gender bending" was widely accepted, but no one pretended that anyone's gender expression changed their sex.
I'd love for a return to a social climate in which teenage boys and men could experiment with fashion, hair and cosmetics like they've once did and they felt confident, safe and secure going out and about wearing long hair, makeup and "feminine" clothes and accessories - the way blokes like Todd Rundgren, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, Rod Stewart, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Phil Oakey, Steven Tyler, Vince Neal, Jon Bon Jovi, Robert Smith, Marilyn Peter Robinson and many more did in the 70s and 80s, and the way wealthy men did in Europe in the 16th, 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries. But I wish guys today could get into "gender expression" like this without pretending that it somehow turns them into girls and women and entitles them to muscle in on female sports and spaces.
No trans person I've ever met (and that is a lot) thinks they can change their biological sex. One can, however, express their gender.
Until the last roughly 100 years the overwhelming majority of humans were preoccupied with getting enough food and resources to stay alive. Self-obsessional navel-gazing about gender was not something people had the time or inclination to do.
More made up stuff. Non-gender conforming people have existed since the beginning of humanity.
They have existed but always at immaterial numbers.
The OED is 150 years old. Non-gender conforming people have existed since humanity has been writing.
I'm not going to provide you with evidence that is readily available in a simple.google search.
If gender is natural, then why is gender expressed so differently across cultures?Are you seriously arguing that a person raised in a cave with no concept of gender would emerge 25 years later with the some sense of gender that is natural? Gender is constructed before you are born. Tell me one NATURAL thing about gender that applies to all cultures and all persons. You do that and I will concede the argument and never post again.
I've read that testosterone blockers and estrogen will slow down a trans woman,dramatically. I don't know by how much,but i do know they don't run nearly as fast. Im curious as to how much.
The short answer is that we don't know. And we won't know unless we allow them to compete. In which division and under what circumstances are open questions.
Collecting medical data from trans athletes would be difficult. But we could at least observe their performance level over years. We may not collect enough data to draw any conclusion, but at least some data are better than none.
We don’t know as much as we would like to. There is beginning to be research on that question. Some early research suggests that GnRH agonist plus hormonal therapy transition eliminates practically all advantage that pre-transition trans women had over cis in some athletic strength tests, and for running in particular, it roughly halved the advantage. We do need more studies to gather more confidence in these types of conclusions.
There is a separate question of whether fairness comes from the statistical indistinguishability a priori of the two groups—trans and cis women—in the population at large or whether it comes from outcome data, i.e., the fraction of the women in the two groups actually winning races. What WA did for intersex was arguably closer to the second approach, namely to look at 2016 results and decide that that fraction seemed too high.
Until the last roughly 100 years the overwhelming majority of humans were preoccupied with getting enough food and resources to stay alive. Self-obsessional navel-gazing about gender was not something people had the time or inclination to do.
More made up stuff. Non-gender conforming people have existed since the beginning of humanity.
Citations needed and when I say citations, I mean thousands of verifiable ones over a hundred years old as I stated. If you can't do that then you are just making assumptions.
I can't speak for others on this board, but what I'm rooting for is a reprise of the days when both sexes felt free to have a wide range of "gender expression" and when "gender bending" was widely accepted, but no one pretended that anyone's gender expression changed their sex.
I'd love for a return to a social climate in which teenage boys and men could experiment with fashion, hair and cosmetics like they've once did and they felt confident, safe and secure going out and about wearing long hair, makeup and "feminine" clothes and accessories - the way blokes like Todd Rundgren, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, Rod Stewart, Brian Eno, Bryan Ferry, Phil Oakey, Steven Tyler, Vince Neal, Jon Bon Jovi, Robert Smith, Marilyn Peter Robinson and many more did in the 70s and 80s, and the way wealthy men did in Europe in the 16th, 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries. But I wish guys today could get into "gender expression" like this without pretending that it somehow turns them into girls and women and entitles them to muscle in on female sports and spaces.
Some examples of the sort of male "gender expression" I'm a huge fan of:
More made up stuff. Non-gender conforming people have existed since the beginning of humanity.
Citations needed and when I say citations, I mean thousands of verifiable ones over a hundred years old as I stated. If you can't do that then you are just making assumptions.
