Point being? Coe was often tossed around in 800m races (by Ovett and others), and his size decidedly was an issue that came into play in some of the underperformances in competitive 800m races. It's as much about the guys of your era as the athlete themselves. A guy like Makhloufi used his size/strength to devastating effect vs. a slight guy like Silas Kiplagat and even Kiprop in some of these races. Josh Kerr you saw throwing around his weight multiple times vs. Barega at indoors Worlds. I don't think El Guerrouj was necessarily as vulnerable running in packs as he might've thought, but not wanting to find out in a secondary event is rational.
That 26:49 was very close to his peak ability, even in a time trial. To run 26:20s, he would've had to have the same second half, off of a 20-second faster first half. Not happening. A negative split is ideal for the 10k anyway, and he could close his 55 because of his lactate tolerance and raw speed, not necessarily because he had too much left to give. 26:40 with 13:25/13:15 splits and a 57-58 close would be a generous estimate of his 10k TT ability. He had nowhere near the endurance of Cheptegei, Geb, Bekele, Kipruto, Tergat etc.
A guy who can split sub-27 in the last 200 of a 26:46 and close a championship 26:49 in 2:28 will crush 26:40 in a time trial. Raw speed means nothing if you lack the strength to use it.
2:28 sounds amazing until you realize they were averaging 2:40 that day. Then you realize it's not really that crazy of a close. As already mentioned, Bekele closed a 26:49 race in 12:57 with a 54 at the end. That is the kind of close that indicates ability to crush 26:40.
A guy who can split sub-27 in the last 200 of a 26:46 and close a championship 26:49 in 2:28 will crush 26:40 in a time trial. Raw speed means nothing if you lack the strength to use it.
2:28 sounds amazing until you realize they were averaging 2:40 that day. Then you realize it's not really that crazy of a close. As already mentioned, Bekele closed a 26:49 race in 12:57 with a 54 at the end. That is the kind of close that indicates ability to crush 26:40.
I take it Cheptegei’s win in 2019 wasn’t very impressive to you either. And are you just going to ignore the 26:46 closed in 26?
That win by Bekele is arguably the greatest championship 10k performance of all time and really has nothing to do with Farah. He was never going to scare the world record, but I think 26:40 is a terrible estimate of his maximum ability (certainly not “generous” as you claimed). If you want to believe that he would’ve been destroyed by Fisher and Ahmed in a time trial, more power to you I guess. I just don’t see it.
Point being? Coe was often tossed around in 800m races (by Ovett and others), and his size decidedly was an issue that came into play in some of the underperformances in competitive 800m races. It's as much about the guys of your era as the athlete themselves. A guy like Makhloufi used his size/strength to devastating effect vs. a slight guy like Silas Kiplagat and even Kiprop in some of these races. Josh Kerr you saw throwing around his weight multiple times vs. Barega at indoors Worlds. I don't think El Guerrouj was necessarily as vulnerable running in packs as he might've thought, but not wanting to find out in a secondary event is rational.
The point is that it wasn't El G's size that stopped him running the 800, it was his relative lack of speed over the distance. Coe had speed - at the same size. It didn't stop him competing over the distance - and successfully. The speculation here about what given runners may have been capable of ignores the fact that they competed most over the events they were best at. To conclude otherwise is to suggest they were morons.
Lagat and El G ran the final 800m of the 2004 Olympic 1500m final in about 1:46-1:47, and I would bet both were in roughly 3:29 shape at the time. Both were more distance oriented 1500m guys too, so their 800m times were already going to be slow relative to their 1500m times. Given this, yes, I would say 1:46-1:47 would be the absolute slowest. Alan Webb ran 1:43 for 800m around the same time he ran his 3:46 mile AR (3:29 equivalent), but he was also someone who always had a lot of speed (47.x 400m in high school).
Someone else of note is Noah Ngeny who ran 2:11.9 for 1000m (roughly 1:41 800m equivalent) who also ran 3:43 for the mile (3:26 equivalent). It appears that while it might be theoretically possible to dip under 3:30 with only 1:46 800m speed, realistically, you're going to have a much easier time at it if you're in 1:45 shape or faster.
Dang I kept looking at Geb's results and his 1998 was crazy. 3:31i/4:52i/7:25/7:26i/12:39/26:22. I imagine most or all of those were WRs. Looks like the only race he lost was that 1:50i 800. Truly the Nico Young of his generation.
If you put Geb in todays times with super shoes, pacing etc he’s easily:
3:29/4:48/7:20/12:33/26:12
Especially with the drugs Geb was undoubtedly using with abandon.
Lagat and El G ran the final 800m of the 2004 Olympic 1500m final in about 1:46-1:47, and I would bet both were in roughly 3:29 shape at the time. Both were more distance oriented 1500m guys too, so their 800m times were already going to be slow relative to their 1500m times. Given this, yes, I would say 1:46-1:47 would be the absolute slowest. Alan Webb ran 1:43 for 800m around the same time he ran his 3:46 mile AR (3:29 equivalent), but he was also someone who always had a lot of speed (47.x 400m in high school).
Someone else of note is Noah Ngeny who ran 2:11.9 for 1000m (roughly 1:41 800m equivalent) who also ran 3:43 for the mile (3:26 equivalent). It appears that while it might be theoretically possible to dip under 3:30 with only 1:46 800m speed, realistically, you're going to have a much easier time at it if you're in 1:45 shape or faster.
Really? I guarantee you it was more like 3.27 shape.
I can guarantee this because I was literally there in Zurich 14 days before the Olympics started and Bernhard inflicted the first loss Hicham had at Weltklasse since 1995 when Morceli beat him in the mile.
Lagat 3.27.40
El Guerrouj 3.27.64
Once again I'm kind of confused by this "1.46-47" band being floated - that's a pretty large range to point to. Is it 1.46.05 or 1.47.95? That's a lot of time in this context. With the shift in the training and physiology of the modern 1500m runner, far less speed is required than we once believed - and certainly far less speed than when the first two men finally did it - both them sub 1.44 performers (Cram and Aouita).
This post was edited 39 seconds after it was posted.
H el G lacked required 200/400/600 meter speed to race fast 800m. While at his peak, H el G set world records, 1500m/1mi/2000m for a reason. That was his TT range. Since international championship 5000m final usually is raced comfortably aerobic, first 4000m, H el G was able to stretch his 2000m ability to 5000m in a championship 5000m race. If H el G were a secret fast 800m guy, he would have raced regional 800m races as did Cram, Coe and Ovett. The later three, European Championships. If H el G had elite 800m ability, he would have raced 800m, African Games &/or African Championships &/or Mediterranean Games.
Lagat and El G ran the final 800m of the 2004 Olympic 1500m final in about 1:46-1:47, and I would bet both were in roughly 3:29 shape at the time. Both were more distance oriented 1500m guys too, so their 800m times were already going to be slow relative to their 1500m times. Given this, yes, I would say 1:46-1:47 would be the absolute slowest. Alan Webb ran 1:43 for 800m around the same time he ran his 3:46 mile AR (3:29 equivalent), but he was also someone who always had a lot of speed (47.x 400m in high school).
Someone else of note is Noah Ngeny who ran 2:11.9 for 1000m (roughly 1:41 800m equivalent) who also ran 3:43 for the mile (3:26 equivalent). It appears that while it might be theoretically possible to dip under 3:30 with only 1:46 800m speed, realistically, you're going to have a much easier time at it if you're in 1:45 shape or faster.
Really? I guarantee you it was more like 3.27 shape.
I can guarantee this because I was literally there in Zurich 14 days before the Olympics started and Bernhard inflicted the first loss Hicham had at Weltklasse since 1995 when Morceli beat him in the mile.
Lagat 3.27.40
El Guerrouj 3.27.64
Once again I'm kind of confused by this "1.46-47" band being floated - that's a pretty large range to point to. Is it 1.46.05 or 1.47.95? That's a lot of time in this context. With the shift in the training and physiology of the modern 1500m runner, far less speed is required than we once believed - and certainly far less speed than when the first two men finally did it - both them sub 1.44 performers (Cram and Aouita).
For some reason I was thinking those 3:27s were in 2003, so yes, you're probably right both were in 3:27 shape the day of the Olympic final. This lends more support to the idea of 1:46ish speed being bare minimum since they closed in about that fast as 3:27 runners with the first half of the race being very slow. I wish El G had run at least a couple 800m races in his life when he was in sub 3:30 shape. Would have been interesting to see what he could have done at the distance.
Lagat and El G ran the final 800m of the 2004 Olympic 1500m final in about 1:46-1:47, and I would bet both were in roughly 3:29 shape at the time. Both were more distance oriented 1500m guys too, so their 800m times were already going to be slow relative to their 1500m times. Given this, yes, I would say 1:46-1:47 would be the absolute slowest. Alan Webb ran 1:43 for 800m around the same time he ran his 3:46 mile AR (3:29 equivalent), but he was also someone who always had a lot of speed (47.x 400m in high school).
Someone else of note is Noah Ngeny who ran 2:11.9 for 1000m (roughly 1:41 800m equivalent) who also ran 3:43 for the mile (3:26 equivalent). It appears that while it might be theoretically possible to dip under 3:30 with only 1:46 800m speed, realistically, you're going to have a much easier time at it if you're in 1:45 shape or faster.
Really? I guarantee you it was more like 3.27 shape.
I can guarantee this because I was literally there in Zurich 14 days before the Olympics started and Bernhard inflicted the first loss Hicham had at Weltklasse since 1995 when Morceli beat him in the mile.
Lagat 3.27.40
El Guerrouj 3.27.64
Once again I'm kind of confused by this "1.46-47" band being floated - that's a pretty large range to point to. Is it 1.46.05 or 1.47.95? That's a lot of time in this context. With the shift in the training and physiology of the modern 1500m runner, far less speed is required than we once believed - and certainly far less speed than when the first two men finally did it - both them sub 1.44 performers (Cram and Aouita).
The biggest shift in the physiology of modern 1500 runners is drugs. Take them out of the equation and "slower" runners would not be achieving the times they have. No one would. We know drugs are present so they will be a factor in performances. It is the biggest driver I have seen in transforming elite performances in over half a century. In the 60's and early 70's athletes like El G, Lagat and Ingebrigtsen would not have figured in the 1500. They would have had to move to longer distances.
H el G lacked required 200/400/600 meter speed to race fast 800m. While at his peak, H el G set world records, 1500m/1mi/2000m for a reason. That was his TT range. Since international championship 5000m final usually is raced comfortably aerobic, first 4000m, H el G was able to stretch his 2000m ability to 5000m in a championship 5000m race. If H el G were a secret fast 800m guy, he would have raced regional 800m races as did Cram, Coe and Ovett. The later three, European Championships. If H el G had elite 800m ability, he would have raced 800m, African Games &/or African Championships &/or Mediterranean Games.
For some reason I was thinking those 3:27s were in 2003, so yes, you're probably right both were in 3:27 shape the day of the Olympic final. This lends more support to the idea of 1:46ish speed being bare minimum since they closed in about that fast as 3:27 runners with the first half of the race being very slow. I wish El G had run at least a couple 800m races in his life when he was in sub 3:30 shape. Would have been interesting to see what he could have done at the distance.
He did them but not in race environments. Well under 1min44.0
Morceli is another guy massively misrepresented by his 800m "PR". He ran 1.44.79 in-race back in 91 before his career started really ramping up (he actually ran 3 800m races between 1.44.79 and 1.44.97 that year), but competed in just one 800m officially the rest of his career (in 1994). Why? The same reasons as Hicham - no incentive. Money too good to run the 1500m/mile as well as the contractual setups and also time and energy - especially as the World Champs had become bi-annual. There just wasn't as much down-time between major events where these guys were racing off their preferred distance (and maybe that was too their detriment but if the difference between running and 800m or 1500m in Zurich is 30k start money then hey, these guys aren't on an NBA roster okay ;)
At his peak Morcelis anaerobic power was astounding. 50.6 to close out the 93 world title and that was a 3.34 race (compare that to Centro running 50.1 in a 3.50 race in 2016 for context). 51.55 in a 3.32 race in 91, and 51.28 in the Gothenburg final running 3.33 (and the last time El G was ever absolutely destroyed in a race). That kind of ability comes from a 1.43 low guy - there was no issue of "speed" with Morceli (exactly the same as Aouita who ran 1.43 himself but better).
Now these guys are sub 3.28/3.45 mile runners (as well as 7.25 and faster 3000m runners) but that is really a different plateau of ability even compared to a 3.29 and change 1500m runner.
H el G lacked required 200/400/600 meter speed to race fast 800m. While at his peak, H el G set world records, 1500m/1mi/2000m for a reason. That was his TT range. Since international championship 5000m final usually is raced comfortably aerobic, first 4000m, H el G was able to stretch his 2000m ability to 5000m in a championship 5000m race. If H el G were a secret fast 800m guy, he would have raced regional 800m races as did Cram, Coe and Ovett. The later three, European Championships. If H el G had elite 800m ability, he would have raced 800m, African Games &/or African Championships &/or Mediterranean Games.
I don't know what you are insinuating here about regional 800m championships but you are lacking an important channel in the row ... its called Aouita experience from the runners that came after him learned.
Aouita was one of these freak runners like you see these Mo Farah, Sifan Hassan (or maybe this new Kenyan Brian Komen) that "explode" quickly in a limited time (he didn't need systematic daily training from the age 11)
Morceli of 1991 with 1:44:87 know that the 800m would be a wast of time because they learned from their predecessors.
Same thing Jakob is following the path of El G. and he is learning from him.
For some reason I was thinking those 3:27s were in 2003, so yes, you're probably right both were in 3:27 shape the day of the Olympic final. This lends more support to the idea of 1:46ish speed being bare minimum since they closed in about that fast as 3:27 runners with the first half of the race being very slow. I wish El G had run at least a couple 800m races in his life when he was in sub 3:30 shape. Would have been interesting to see what he could have done at the distance.
He did them but not in race environments. Well under 1min44.0
Morceli is another guy massively misrepresented by his 800m "PR". He ran 1.44.79 in-race back in 91 before his career started really ramping up (he actually ran 3 800m races between 1.44.79 and 1.44.97 that year), but competed in just one 800m officially the rest of his career (in 1994). Why? The same reasons as Hicham - no incentive. Money too good to run the 1500m/mile as well as the contractual setups and also time and energy - especially as the World Champs had become bi-annual. There just wasn't as much down-time between major events where these guys were racing off their preferred distance (and maybe that was too their detriment but if the difference between running and 800m or 1500m in Zurich is 30k start money then hey, these guys aren't on an NBA roster okay ;)
At his peak Morcelis anaerobic power was astounding. 50.6 to close out the 93 world title and that was a 3.34 race (compare that to Centro running 50.1 in a 3.50 race in 2016 for context). 51.55 in a 3.32 race in 91, and 51.28 in the Gothenburg final running 3.33 (and the last time El G was ever absolutely destroyed in a race). That kind of ability comes from a 1.43 low guy - there was no issue of "speed" with Morceli (exactly the same as Aouita who ran 1.43 himself but better).
Now these guys are sub 3.28/3.45 mile runners (as well as 7.25 and faster 3000m runners) but that is really a different plateau of ability even compared to a 3.29 and change 1500m runner.
What is claimed about a time trial that wasn't public isn't a confirmed time. It can be said about any runner - and often is. I have two reasons to doubt it in El G's case: a runner who is capable of 1:43 (in the 90's) is competitive over the distance at the very top and will periodically race it - as Coe did, who was the same size as El G. He will also at some point do better than the 1:46x El G recorded in a race (although I believe he was capable of faster than 1:46. Maybe 1:44-45). The second reason is that El G never showed the kind of acceleration that could be expected of a 1:43 runner. Like Cram.
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