Does shorter rest periods between intervals train the body to dispose of lactate faster?

Thank you. I have to admit it took a couple of reads through to fully understand, I think I get it.

malmo are you going to make a reply to your statement? SHould or would you do 5 mile runs at a pace CAN"T do for half-marathon? Also explain why 10 x 400 w/one minute rest, is the best training for the mile? How much of that type of training can you do? After a few of the 400's wouldn't you be drowning in acid? This is not what the mile is mostly about. Only during the last 90 seconds or so is the racing of the mile way over on the an-aerobic side. Wouldn't training more at a high aerobic level (3k-5k) be more better then drowning in lactate over the course of the workout? My take is that the mile is not so entirely different then many of the other longer distances that need more aerobic stimulus & less an-aerobic over stimulus. Comments?

malmo wrote:

pete wrote:

]I don't think I could do that workout. Or, if I did it, I wouldn't want to do it very often, because it would beat the hell out of my body.

Probably for the same reason you CAN run 5 mile tempo runs at half marathon pace. If you can run a tempo run at half marathon pace, that's a sure sign you are not training properly for the half marathon, hence, the reason why you are underperforming at that distance. A vicious circle, for sure.

Likewise, if you cannot run 10 x 400 at your mile pace with a minute rest, that's a sure sign you are not training properly for the mile -- which, might not be an issue at all, since it doesn't appear that you are actually training for the mile in the first place.

Does that make sense to you?

Now I would like to hear the opinions of Renato Canova and Antonio Cabral on this topic. Gentlemen if you please?

Jzs wrote:

malmo are you going to make a reply to your statement?

Please make your answer in the form of a question.... in English.

JEH wrote:

The key (which you alluded to and that I assumed if one was close to their race) is that the runner is aerobically fit. Most of the time I kind of cringe when tempo runs are described as 10Kpace + 10-15, because this is way to fast if your not in good shape. But, after you push that LT up and are fit, that's about right.

Why would someone have to be in great shape to handle a 5mile run at 10m-1/2 'thon shape? The key here is that I'd never recommend running a 5 mi run at GOAL pace for the 10mi when you're not in your best fitness yet. You have to adjust your paces as you work into shape. This way you CAN handle doing 5mi tempo's @ 10mi pace.. because they progressively get faster as you get into better shape. You can use the same 10-15 sec above 10k pace in this scenario as well.. because you go from CURRENT 10k pace and not Goal pace when designing your workouts. When I'm just getting back into shape I'll make things more palatable by breaking it up into cruise intervals or 2 X 2mi and 1 X mi @ LT pace.. But either way, you just have to adjust your paces according to your current fitness levels. Much as Daniels does with his VDOT, and Rubio does in his Multi-Tier system.

"Does shorter rest periods between interval train the body to dispose of lactate faster?"

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Probably. Clearance improves with shorter rests, but only if the velocity isn't too fast that accumulation gets out of control. Longer reps improve lactate use and clearance too. You have a choice:

1) Use relatively shorter rests at at given speed to improve lactate clearance rate;

2) Use longer work intervals (reps) at a given speed to improve lactate clarance rat.

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About 10 x 400m with a 1:00 rest, per Malmo, it is a very good predictive workout. If you can run 10 x 400m in 60 seconds with a minute of rest (not jogging) then it is likely you have the ingredients in place to run at or close to 4:00 for the mile.

Anyone who has tried standing rests vs jogging rests will tell you that standing is a lot harder because lactic acid is not cleared from the legs and by the 5th or 6th rep your legs are toast. By the 8th you don't know if you can make it to the 10th. By the 10th you are ready to lay on the ground for awhile to get over the pickle you put yourself in. If you aren't feeling that tired, either your average 1-mile pace per lap is faster than you thought or you are in fantastic aerobic condition.

Is 10 x 400m that best workout for a miler? I don't think that was the question posed in this thread, but if it must be answered I'll say, "It depends." It may be at any given moment, but it may not be too. There is no one workout that is all-encompassing or perfect. You need the proper blend or various key workouts and training modes. You need to consistently do them. You need to build steadily over the months / years to get to that point. There is no quick fix. Tinman

Zuzu's petals wrote:

Lactate levels are more dependent on intensity and duration of exercise than on length of the recovery intervals between bouts.

True, but one does not need high levels to improve anaerobic efficiency. Thus, one does not need high intensity or duration of exercise to improve this component. Rather, a modest pace (at or slightly above threshhold) and distance, with short rest, enhances acid buffering efficiency.

Surprised I've seen no mention of Frank Shorter here.

His favorite track workout was 12 X 400 @ 3 mi race pace with 100 jog in :30's... Frank ran 12:50 for 3 mi.

I ran similar workouts in my prime & I swear by them as well.

A second or 2 under 5K race pace is ok. The goal is to do at least 12. I haven't seen any scientific studies on this type of workout, but for Frank (Marathoner that liked his 5K races too). You might note that his average pace (including the 100m jogs) was 4:50 per mile for about 4 miles... This workout does not leave you fatigued the next day...

Cruise intervals, for tempo / anaerobic conditioning purposes - short recovery.

Anaerobic capacity pace - short or long recovery, depending on many factors. Anaerobic capacitation can come in many forms. 20x200 short recovery, 3x800 long recovery....

1000m to 3000m runs at 5km race pace or more....ie Aerobic capacity....DO NOT MINIMIZE RECOVERY! You need to inhibit the anaerobic mess when doing these sessions, and a decent recovery is required for these distances and totals.

It is a mistake, imho, to do 5x1000m at 5k race pace with 1min rest. You are one step away from racing 5000m, stresses and all. Train, don't strain. 2min seems to be "popular" for mile repeats at a brisk pace. I think 4min is much better.

There are a lot of proven methods in this thread. If a person just ran a random workout from the thread once a week, did a hard tempo run, a long run and a bunch of as-you-feel sessions on the other days, they'd be ready to race well.

We over-think the details too much. My track is under snow for 4 months of the year so I run my intervals on trails & roads. On snowy trails it's impossible to run at the correct pace, but the effort is just as intense. This is good for anaerobic fitness and mental toughness, but not good for staying relaxed at a high pace, so I run half the session on trails with long repeats & short rests. I then get on the road with good footing for the second half of the session and run short repeats with longer rests: something like 5-6 repeats of 5 phone poles with 2 poles recovery, focussing on staying relaxed while running hard.

For me, this works just as well as sessions on the track during the summer. It's the effort that produces results, not the details of the effort.

sc42 wrote:I then get on the road with good footing for the second half of the session and run short repeats with longer rests: something like 5-6 repeats of 5 phone poles with 2 poles recovery, focussing on staying relaxed while running hard.

Hey, I did that workout last summer while at a family reunion and trying to bust through a funk. The telephone poles were random distances apart, which meant the workout was like a box of chocolates - I never knew what I was going to get (or when I'd get to rest). I also did 2 poles fast, one pole rest as another (faster) session. It sure broke from the routine of the track.

Skuj wrote:

Anaerobic capacitation can come in many forms. 20x200 short recovery, 3x800 long recovery....

3x800 long, yes. 20x200 short, NO! Anaerobic capacity is achieved by doing very fast intervals with adequate recovery. 20x200 might be a good efficiency workout, but certainly not one for capacity.

But what if those 200s are at 1500 goal pace, with 30sec recovery?

Sure, the first few feel easyish. What happens at 10x?

It's like the first 200 or 400 of an 800 or 1500 race. The "capacity" part doesn't (shouldn't) strike really early! :)

Victor Mora wrote:

Now I would like to hear the opinions of Renato Canova and Antonio Cabral on this topic. Gentlemen if you please?

Antonio wrote a lot on the topic here:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=825534&page=3

10x400...research it. You'll find a lot of middle distance runners from days gone by who have done this workout religiously. You don't need someone with a labcoat and a lactate monitor to tell you whether or not something is a good workout. If you're going to read and research training techniques then go to the source (world class runners of today and yesterday) not some guy with a PhD.

Back to the 5 mile tempo question. Homework: Run 5 miles everyday at half-marathon pace. Report back in two weeks, if you make it that far. How do you feel? Tight? Sore? Feeling the effects of acidosis? How? Wasn't that supposed to be an 'easy' tempo run? Again guys, there is a big difference between a good tempo run and a good training run. 5 or 6 miles at half-marathon pace is a great training run if you've got a long race coming up, but I wouldn't call it a great tempo run if you're hurting at all the next day. You'd be better served running a bit slower so that you can do this nearly everday. The cumulative improvement over the course of weeks will be better. That is, the cumulative improvement in the sacred lactate threshold will be better by running 5 miles nearly everday at 95% of lactate threshold than running 5 miles a couple time a week at 100% of lactate treshold. Understand? You don't have to run right at some sacred point to improve said sacred point.

Alan

Pete wrote:

Hey, I did that workout last summer while at a family reunion and trying to bust through a funk. The telephone poles were random distances apart, which meant the workout was like a box of chocolates - I never knew what I was going to get (or when I'd get to rest). I also did 2 poles fast, one pole rest as another (faster) session. It sure broke from the routine of the track.

Yeah, I like the variations in distance that phone poles create. You never know if you're going to have to hang on for an extra 5 seconds or so, or finish up a hill (or down). And if you lose track of how many poles you've passed, you have to run another ... great practice for hanging on to a pace for longer than expected.

Skuj wrote:

But what if those 200s are at 1500 goal pace, with 30sec recovery?

Sure, the first few feel easyish. What happens at 10x?

It's like the first 200 or 400 of an 800 or 1500 race. The "capacity" part doesn't (shouldn't) strike really early! :)

With all respect, it appears you do not understand anaerobic capacity. No 20x200 workout that you can come up with will improve this physiological component (unless the workout is spread over several days). This is not a question of whether the workout is easy or hard, but how do you develop capacity. Anaerobic capacity is developed by doing a very small number of high quality intervals with significant recovery. That's basic coaching science. Look it up.

Bun E. Rabbit wrote:

With all respect, it appears you do not understand anaerobic capacity. No 20x200 workout that you can come up with will improve this physiological component (unless the workout is spread over several days). This is not a question of whether the workout is easy or hard, but how do you develop capacity. Anaerobic capacity is developed by doing a very small number of high quality intervals with significant recovery. That's basic coaching science. Look it up.

I think you guys are all getting confused on your scientific terminology.

Capacities and power have different meanings to different people.

Anaerobic capacity can mean one thing to one person and another to another.