So who else since Juantorena has been an Olympic champion over both distances?
Well, that's a bit unfair to the woman who won both events at the inaugural World Championships--winning the 400 in a then-WR 47.99--only a couple of weeks after setting the still-standing WR of 1:53.28 for 800 meters.
Czechoslovakia joined the Soviet-led boycott of the 1984 Summer Olympics.
Many Americans and others run all out for 700m and hang on for the last 100m. most WR are set on negative splits. Even Rudisha without a pace setter/rabbit in the Olympics.
Maybe I am misunderstanding but negative split means getting faster on the second lap. Rudisha certainly slowed down by about +2 seconds and most world records have followed a similar trend. I think Coe's 1:41 was an even more aggressive positive split. Fiasconaro similar and I think also Juantorena, though don't know the splits off the top of my head. If I see a negative split referenced in the 800, such as Will Sumner's win at NCAAs, it is usually meant that the person had more time to squeeze because they didn't get out aggressively enough.
Nick Symmonds said his strategy for running a fast 800 was to aim for about +2 second differential because that seemed to be a physiological sweet spot based on prior top-end performers and it worked for him personally. You see in most of his races this means he's closer to the back at the start as others get out more aggressively and then he appears to kick everyone down, even though he himself has slowed relative to the first lap but relative to everyone else tying up he is flying.
Kipketer ran something like 48-high when he set his wr.
Why is it that Sebastian Coe was able to run 1:41.73 in 1981 (43 years ago!!!!) and Joaquim Cruz run a 1:41.77 in 1984. Since 2019 only one Man has dipped under 1:42, that was Nigel Amos in 2019, he ran a 1:41.89.
Also, since 2019, only one other Man, Donavan Brazier, has dipped under 1:42.5, with his 1:42.34 in 2019.
Why is this event not producing any low 1:42 times at least, or any sub 1:42's?
I know there have only been 15 sub 1:42's and that list is dominated by Rudisha and Kipketer, but still I have no answer?
Last year Wanyonyi ran 1:42.80 and Arop ran a 1:42.85 so that is encouraging.
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
It seems to me that the 800 isn't really getting faster but more people are running under 1:45.
Maybe we're close to the limits where time is concerned but more and more people will run at those limits? And, I think that the average career may be longer than it was 30-34 years ago so that crowds up the field a bit.
I also think something has to be done because there are so many close in time- maybe make the final 10-12 runners and go 300 meters before cutting in (they did this in the 76 Olympics).
The most talented of the current era has not been Brazier! Korir and Amos are both faster at 800 (and especially 400). ...further, Brazier is/was nowhere close to Rudisha to have a "Rudisha effect". LOL!!! Brazier's fastest time doesn't even scratch at the 14 times Rudisha ran faster and now Brazier is only one year younger than Rudisha's retirement age. Was never going to happen!
Also interesting that the OP singles out the 800 as not progressing. Two "premier" events, the 1500 and 100, have gone longer without WR progression.
Also worth noting, WR progression doesn't necessarily mean the event is currently entertaining. The Pole Vault and Shot Put WRs get broken by a singular dominant athlete practically every other meet and have so for four years running. ... again, not necessarily entertaining.
Amos has been banned for doping so I think we can discount him from this conversation. As for Korir, whilst he does have incredible raw talent, he is very inconsistent and rarely performs outside of championships (over the last two years, anyway), meaning that he also won’t pull the rest of the field around.
As for your comments on Brazier, he ran his best time at the World Championships in 2019, aged 22. Since then, only three other athletes have broken 1:43 and nobody has gotten within half a second of his 1:42.34. I’m not saying he would have broken the world record had he not gotten injured, but he more than likely would have ran faster than he did in Doha and I think we would have seen faster times from others as a result.
400m - naturally fast guys who are lean and improve speed. Sprinters who can eeek out 400m total.
1500m - tons of guys who can pop 47-49s and then do years of aerobic training.
800m - training is difficult and super individualized and still barely anybody finds that “perfect mix” between speed and aerobic training that works best. Sprinters are usually too heavy for it. Distance guys don’t have the power.
It’s just a unique combination of energy systems and mechanical systems that many fail to get right. It’s a beast of a race.
Why is it that Sebastian Coe was able to run 1:41.73 in 1981 (43 years ago!!!!) and Joaquim Cruz run a 1:41.77 in 1984. Since 2019 only one Man has dipped under 1:42, that was Nigel Amos in 2019, he ran a 1:41.89.
Also, since 2019, only one other Man, Donavan Brazier, has dipped under 1:42.5, with his 1:42.34 in 2019.
Why is this event not producing any low 1:42 times at least, or any sub 1:42's?
I know there have only been 15 sub 1:42's and that list is dominated by Rudisha and Kipketer, but still I have no answer?
Last year Wanyonyi ran 1:42.80 and Arop ran a 1:42.85 so that is encouraging.
I have always loved the middle-distance running events. Being a Brit, this seems automatic as I grew up watching the exploits of Coe, Ovett, Cram, and Elliot winning titles and setting records over…
My thought is and it could be off base, the 400M is the first distance where the runner reaches their lactate threshold almost all the time before the end of the race. There is not enough time to buffer the lactic acid before the end of the race.
The 800M, this can also happen if the runner goes too fast for the first 400-500M and the lactate threshold is reached and they still have 200M+ to run, and as a result they slow down dramatically.
Why is it that Sebastian Coe was able to run 1:41.73 in 1981 (43 years ago!!!!) and Joaquim Cruz run a 1:41.77 in 1984. Since 2019 only one Man has dipped under 1:42, that was Nigel Amos in 2019, he ran a 1:41.89.
Also, since 2019, only one other Man, Donavan Brazier, has dipped under 1:42.5, with his 1:42.34 in 2019.
Why is this event not producing any low 1:42 times at least, or any sub 1:42's?
I know there have only been 15 sub 1:42's and that list is dominated by Rudisha and Kipketer, but still I have no answer?
Last year Wanyonyi ran 1:42.80 and Arop ran a 1:42.85 so that is encouraging.
I just wanted to add in regards to Coe, his PR for 400M was 46.87. So looking at his WR Race he came through the first 400M of his 1:41.73 800M in just under 50 seconds, that is only 3+ seconds off his PR for 400M. So he had to be very close to his Lactate Threshold, his system must have been very efficient to buffer the lactic acid for him to run the second 400M in ~52 seconds, He was actually at 1:15 flat for 600M and closed in 26.73 for the last 200M. Incredible race on not a good track.
Enjoyed seeing this graphed out and it was especially interesting to me that the overall WR progression in the 800 is actually closer to that of the 100 than the 400 or 1500. As the author notes, this is especially weird in an event where there is much more race to improve but, as we are all noting, the 800 is weird.
The Beamon-esque factor of performances also seems to be especially prominent in the 800 for some reason. Going through the world record progression, I'm always shocked how many great performances have happened in the 800 throughout its history. Rudisha and Coe get special mention for just blowing the roof off of what you would think was possible and then Snell's performance is absurd given the era, the surface, and his training. But I also want to mention Rudolf Harbig's 1:46.6 from 1939 and Ted Meredith's first WR listed from 1912 (1:51.0).
Harbig's performance may be the best of all the world records and it stood for just about as long as Coe's 1:41. But I think this is even more impressive given the context of that time today. Bryce Hoppel won this year's USAs in 1:46.2 and, if Harbig had run USASs this past year and managed to reproduce a time he ran 84 YEARS AGO on the day at Hayward Field, he would finish 2nd just ahead of Isaiah Harris. I will also note that Harbig's coaches are maybe more worthy of discussion here than any of the athletes mentioned because Gerschler was an innovator of interval training and I don't think there is a much better training system for 800m that has come about since.
As for Meredith, I don't know much about him or his training but on comparison with other times of 1912 his 1:51.9 struck me as also fairly strong. Going by Wikipedia listed progressions the same year's 1500m WR was 3:55 and the 400 was 48.2. I'm still not sure there's a totally perfect way to compare performances across events but, as I see it, the 1500 and 400 could today still be considered good high school times that may be top of their region, depending on the state. However the 800 I could see winning a state championship if it were run today in just about every state in the country. For a time that is over 110 years old, that is absurd! I would love to know more about Meredith if anyone has information on his training!
So who else since Juantorena has been an Olympic champion over both distances?
Well, that's a bit unfair to the woman who won both events at the inaugural World Championships--winning the 400 in a then-WR 47.99--only a couple of weeks after setting the still-standing WR of 1:53.28 for 800 meters.
Czechoslovakia joined the Soviet-led boycott of the 1984 Summer Olympics.
So we are talking about one of the most glaring doping suspects in the sport. That was over forty years ago. And since?
So who else since Juantorena has been an Olympic champion over both distances?
You said speedster over 400m, not Olympic champion over both distances.
No, I didn't. You can't follow an argument. My point is that apart from Juantorena (and Kratochvilova) we haven't seen a runner reach the top at both distances in over 40 years. We have seen that with 1500 runners like Snell, Coe and Ovett, but they, too, have become a rarity in recent decades.
I just wanted to add in regards to Coe, his PR for 400M was 46.87. So looking at his WR Race he came through the first 400M of his 1:41.73 800M in just under 50 seconds, that is only 3+ seconds off his PR for 400M. So he had to be very close to his Lactate Threshold, his system must have been very efficient to buffer the lactic acid for him to run the second 400M in ~52 seconds, He was actually at 1:15 flat for 600M and closed in 26.73 for the last 200M. Incredible race on not a good track.
Coe was faster than 46.87 for the 400. He showed that in a relay where he ran 45x.
You said speedster over 400m, not Olympic champion over both distances.
No, I didn't. You can't follow an argument. My point is that apart from Juantorena (and Kratochvilova) we haven't seen a runner reach the top at both distances in over 40 years. We have seen that with 1500 runners like Snell, Coe and Ovett, but they, too, have become a rarity in recent decades.
You literally wrote "The speedsters over 400 generally lack the endurance to master the 800".
No, I didn't. You can't follow an argument. My point is that apart from Juantorena (and Kratochvilova) we haven't seen a runner reach the top at both distances in over 40 years. We have seen that with 1500 runners like Snell, Coe and Ovett, but they, too, have become a rarity in recent decades.
You literally wrote "The speedsters over 400 generally lack the endurance to master the 800".
It's at the top of this page.
You are literally very stupid. When I am referring to speedsters over the 400 I am referring to the best athletes over the event. That didn't include athletes like Rudisha or Kipketer (or Coe), which was my point about the 800 being a specialty event.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Why is it that Sebastian Coe was able to run 1:41.73 in 1981 (43 years ago!!!!) and Joaquim Cruz run a 1:41.77 in 1984. Since 2019 only one Man has dipped under 1:42, that was Nigel Amos in 2019, he ran a 1:41.89.
Also, since 2019, only one other Man, Donavan Brazier, has dipped under 1:42.5, with his 1:42.34 in 2019.
Why is this event not producing any low 1:42 times at least, or any sub 1:42's?
I know there have only been 15 sub 1:42's and that list is dominated by Rudisha and Kipketer, but still I have no answer?
Last year Wanyonyi ran 1:42.80 and Arop ran a 1:42.85 so that is encouraging.
You literally wrote "The speedsters over 400 generally lack the endurance to master the 800".
It's at the top of this page.
You are literally very stupid. When I am referring to speedsters over the 400 I am referring to the best athletes over the event. That didn't include athletes like Rudisha or Kipketer (or Coe), which was my point about the 800 being a specialty event.
You resort to insults because you lack intelligence.
You said speedster over 400m, not Olympic champion over both distances.
No, I didn't. You can't follow an argument. My point is that apart from Juantorena (and Kratochvilova) we haven't seen a runner reach the top at both distances in over 40 years. We have seen that with 1500 runners like Snell, Coe and Ovett, but they, too, have become a rarity in recent decades.
Coe had a sweet spot at 800M through one mile (although his 400M 46.87 is really fast), he ran 1:41.73 for 800M and 3:47.33 for the Mile, both World records at the time. But beyond those distances his time really fell off, maybe because he didn't run them that often. He ran 7:54.32 for 3000M and 14:06 for 5000M.
Juantorena was built more like a 400M runner and was an outlier as of course he was great at 800M as well. Something we will probably never see again. I don't really want to get into a discussion on Jarmila Kratochvílová here as she was a suspected PED user.
You are literally very stupid. When I am referring to speedsters over the 400 I am referring to the best athletes over the event. That didn't include athletes like Rudisha or Kipketer (or Coe), which was my point about the 800 being a specialty event.
You resort to insults because you lack intelligence.
Korir was 800m champion and 400m finalist.
That doesn't make him of equal ability over both events, in the way that Juantorena was, and before him, Whitfield. Or the 800-1500 exponents like Snell, (probably Ryun, too), Coe and Ovett. Korir is definitely not a Juantorena so he doesn't disprove what I said that there hasn't been an athlete since the Cuban who mastered both of the shorter distances. Your petty nitpicking doesn't show otherwise.
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