100mpw in high school

Someone who puts in consistent 100mi weeks during core training seasons (summer and winter) is probably running a 3500-4000 mile year, but that's besides the point.

Is talent required to become a world beater? Sure. If you have talent, train and get better. If you don't train and get better -- you can expect to beating the guys who do have talent but fail to develop it.

What's the alternative? "Sorry kid, you don't have it. Don't bother trying to improve." Everyone should have the goal of training well and improving, regardless of where they start. He may not have been stellar, but Ron Daws became an Olympian and finished 22nd in the Olympic marathon, and he had ZERO talent, ending his career with a 2:20 marathon best.

It takes a world of talent to run a world record, but just because you weren't born with that natural ability doesn't mean that you should just forget competitive running or training to be the best.

The best part of this thread is that I now have multiple candidates to replace Gags.

3500 miles per year is less than 70 mpw. I don't think that qualifies you to say "I run 100 miles per week"; maybe "I occasionally run 100 miles per week."

Nowhere have I recommended that high school athletes not try to improve or even that they not work hard. In fact, I am a fan of tough high school programs. My idea is that if you are of limited talent as a high school athlete, 70 miles per week would seem like a load. Am I the only one who has an accurate memory of what high school was really like? I ran some 70 mile weeks, plus some 90's during the summer, and I felt absolutely maxed out, like a sort of running monk. I was of limited talent.

Speaking of limited talent, I totally disagree with your assessment that Ron Daws had "zero" talent. Maybe compared to Geb he had zero talent, but a certain degree of above average physical talent is required to run a 2:20 marathon (although you would not think so after reading this message board). Even handling that level of physical training requires some talent.

Bottom line to me: yes, I think high school runners should endeavor to run as well as they can. However, I think putting in 100 mile weeks is counterproductive to that goal. That doesn't mean I don't think they should train hard.

TomM,

Someone who runs a 3500 mile year did not hit 70 every week; the last track phase would have some comparably low weeks (40) while in the base building phases will have high volumes (90-100).

However, I don't know of too many high schoolers in this country who would be read for this kind of volume.

My senior year I ran many 70-80 mi weeks throughout the summer, fall, and winter, but did not run 3500mi that year.

That brings up an interesting question, namely, what exactly does it mean to say "so and so runs 100 miles a week"? To me, it would mean a substantial portion of the year, but I guess it's open to interpretation. If it meant only a few times during summer vacation or something like that, I would find that a lot easier to accept.

Your program in HS sounds more like my idea of a sensible high-end program for runners of that age--a good solid taste of hard work, but not so much that the athlete gets prematurely burned out (hopefully).

Does anybody remember the Garritson (sp?) family from California? When I got into running in the '80's they were a hot topic. There were something like 2 boys and 2 girls ranging in age from like 7-14, coached by their father (some of those numbers could be wrong, but the gist is right). He worked them pretty hard, and they were very good for their age. I think the oldest boy was running 10k's in maybe 31-32 min, and one of the girls was almost fast enough to make some money. The father seemed to take for granted that they would one day be Olympians, as they would only have to take a few minutes off their times over the course of many years. I'm not sure what eventually became of them (can anyone enlighten me?), but obviously they never attained the level expected of them by their father. I think this case more than any other made me a little wary of heavy training programs for youngsters, as it demonstrated that sure, they'll seem to thrive for a while, but in the end it always seems to end in disappointment. There have been numerous age group phenoms over the years, but they never seem to progress to being world class adult runners. I think with younger runners, making sure they enjoy it should be the number one priority.

I am somewhat familiar w/ one of the Garritsons.

You might find this insightful:

http://www.arizonaroadracers.com/10krec.html

This is also Heather Garritson's frosh time at Woodward park:

Heather Garritson (Sunny Hills, Fullerton) 1994 17:53

In spite of her father's prognostications, I don't see her on any other top class lists.

Seems to me like the York kids are only doing so well because they are training more than everyone else they are competing against. It is easy to win in that case. Zatopek did the same after the war when no-one else was training so hard. You also see the same thing temporarily when one kid matures earlier than his class-mates, he gets to kick butt for a season and then they all catch him up a year later and he's history.

So, when the York kids go to college where everyone trains at a higher level, they disappear.

Koskov- everyone disappears when they get to college, you know what I mean? No one high school continues to send elite runners off year after year; my point all along is simply to say that what York does is instill a love of running and sense of discppline, and for those who desire to continue running when they get to college, they do. All of us keep talking as if running is the entire life of each hs kid; it is not. I don't know why Pete Stasiulis did not run 1.47 in college, for example, except that maybe when he got there he decided there were other things he wanted to do. That running would not be his entire life and would not be his future career. A person like Don Sage is a rarity. My kids left York as 9.36/4.30 runners and left college as 14.50/31.20 runners. These are not elite times, but they invested their college time with developing further as runners to the best of their ability. I couldn't be prouder.

I think that TomM has nicely raised a counterpoint to this argument, and Tom, I never felt you were being negative just to be negative. This argument about high mileage really has no answer, and most of us address it based on our own experiences or observations. I've observed a premier high mileage high school program, so I draw my conclusions on that. I do think that you really do need the miles to develop best, but we have selected 100 as some sort of benchmark. If we all knew what was best, there would be no debate.

TomM,

sorry about the tone of my response; i was trying to raise the point that you shouldn't attack what works for others any more than people attack what you think works (more moderate miles). and as i even stated in my own post (about 10-12 ago), i wouldn't have my own kids break 70/week.

so i think we're in agreement on that, and like greenliner, i'm glad someone makes us back up our beliefs, not just propagandize....

as for your other question: when i say i know a bunch of 100mpw runners, the fall into two categories, both of which "count" as 100mpw:

the guys who run 100mpw for many (>10) weeks in a row as part of base training, sometimes up to 115-20, and then maintain volume during season (~85-90).

the guys who average 100mpw for the whole year (excluding the 2-4 weeks they take completely off).

i think both qualify, because the initial topic was for SUMMER BASE only, so to claim i'm a 100miler because i ran one week is ludicrous, but if that is a staple of a major training period for someone, then they are.

and i don't go by yearly totals; when you factor in weeks off, taper weeks of ~40mpw, down weeks for recovery (say ~70), someone could run a great number of 100+ weeks and still average in the 80s.

Greenliner: thanks for actually considering what I wrote. You're right, there is no definitive answer to the question, "Should high schoolers run 100-mile weeks?" It sounds like your kids were in a program that was at least fairly thoughtful and sensible in its approach, and they seem to be fairly well-adjusted. I would be interested in being more familiar with the York program, as far as how the kids felt about it years later and such. But it sounds like a generally positive experience for them.

I've always been a little uncomfortable with the 100 mile week as a benchmark, if only because I think the roundness of the number itself makes it addictive. I'm almost certain that many runners that are training hard at say, 80-90 miles per week, are going to gravitate towards upping it to 100, just because the number is so appealing. But 80-90 might be more appropriate for them at that time.

Tom: for those few kids who were friends of my twins that I can ask, universally all of them enjoyed the time. I think a good testimory can be found on Marius Bakken's website, where he commends the training he got from Joe Newton- Marius is, just in case people do not know, the Norwegian national 5k record holder (13.09) and ran for York for his 12th grade as an exchange student (a local minister suggested he consider York when he heard that Marius wished to run during his time in the US). Don Sage, whom I know well, has said much the same.

But perhaps the best testimony that I can offer is that every labor Day, to officially kick things off, Mr. Newton has his first intrasquad meet combine with an alumni reunion and run, where the team runs its own races and the alumni run one as well- and each year 50 or 60 or even more alumni return to reminisce and run- even former All Americans Jim White and Ron Craker have shown up- and Coach Newton still introduces each and every one of them and tells everyone there how they ran and developed during high school- unscripted, since he never knows who will show.

Also, remember that not every York runner runs 100 miles during the summer- only those motivated enough to do so. The team has 130+ runners on it and maybe 20 or so do 1000 miles per summer. But invariably, those 20 are the ones who are top 7 runners and set the stage for the rest.

Hey, my kids graduated from York 5 years ago, and you know what I am doing tonight? Going to the DuPage Valley meet to watch York run. The boys' track team has 188 members... from a school of 1900 total. And my kids are both coaching high school track right now, so I guess I am sort of biased, just a little. :-)

You guys have been saying throughout the thread that if one was to decide to run high mileage around 80 or 90 mpw that they must build up gradually. For someone who has run 40mpw the previous summer, how should they go about getting up to 80 or 90 in a 14 week base period? Where should they start and how much should they increase each week?

14 weeks is way, way to quick. If they averaged 40 mpw over the summer, the following winter I'd have them avg. 50 mpw, the next summer 50-60mpw, the next winter, 60-70 and just adjust it accordingly

I am back from the meet, and Coach Newton, who no longer coaches the track team (just xc), was there, so I talked to him a bit about this issue. His comment was that when he has kids in hs, he gives them an experience that will help them all their life, and he knows that not all will run in college. For those who do not, their time at York shows them that they can do amazing things, and they can learn discipline and they come away with a positive experience. And for those that continue to run, they enter college with an amazing base and a superb work ethic that will serve them as they go through college. That is what the old coach says.

Now, I will also that the York team tonight, at both frosh/soph and varsity level, at any distance from 800 up, was almost unbeatable. York runners won the 800 at both levels, won the 3200 at the f/s level and was 2nd and 3rd in varsity, and took the 1600 as well as the 4x800 at both levels. And this was not with their best runners in any of those events- the team has a bigger meet tomorrow. The miles matter.

Finally, I spoke with Don Sage's parents, who told me Don was redshirting due to a lingering tendinitis and a very tough academic load. He will work toward Nationals as June draws nearer. But this will give him 2 more years at Stanford for outdoor track. Don's folk take his education very seriously. Unline some folks (coughwebbcough)... :-)

Basically, I like the sounds of your local HS program. I think some of my comments came across or were interpreted as my being against high schoolers working hard. This is definitely not the case. I came from a program whose coach, Richard Westbrook, took numerous nobody white trash kids who didn't know a thing about running (such as myself) and helped us tap into our ability to work hard. We ran up to 90 mpw during the summer and did lots of hard workouts and morning runs during the school year. I'm no superstar and never was, but the experience has helped me in many ways outside of running; it seems like every activity in life which requires endurance and hard work is easier to me now that I've tested my limitations. It was also an experience that led to lasting bonds with teammates, several of who I still keep in touch with 16 years after graduating. I am extremely glad I ended up in a program renowned for its heavy workload. My only reservation is with the idea of high school (or younger) kids being advised to run week after week of 100-mile weeks. Working hard is one thing; running 100 mpw during the school year is a little beyond hard work in my opinion. But that doesn't sound like a part of the York HS program; the bond between past and present runners suggests to me that the coach has been able to find the line between instilling a hard-working attitude and overworking them. Ultimately the best thing a HS coach can do for a kid is give them a rewarding experience, since the odds of turning them into a world-class runner, no matter what their work ethic, are so slim as to be negligible. So to reiterate, I think a tough program in the hands of a good coach can be a great thing for a HS athlete; hopefully "tough" will fall somewhere short of the workout regimen of, say, Frank Shorter in his prime.

I am terribly biased, Tom. But you also had a great coach. My kids will tell you that outside of mom and dad, the person who had the greatest influence on their life is Joe Newton. I watched him hobble around last night on legs that ran every day for 25 years until doctors told him that he would lose them if he did not stop (so now he swims ever day) and at age 76 hold court. Both my older kids are coaching xc and track now due to him and both used their experience as members of York in their college essays- Newton is so old school he is prehistoric, but he says that getting up after falling down is as important as winning- a message my one son needed to hear after his collapse from hupoglycemia at the state meet cost York a state title by one point. I know of 7 local coaches at the HS and college level that were York runners, not counting my kids. Newton has said he will stay until he reaches 25 state titles- he is at 22 now. His protege Charlie Kern is a young man (mid-30s) who is himself a 4.05 miler and 2.37 marathoner.

But you have to buy in and you have to work, and then the skills help you later in life.

Sorry if anything I say has been previously mentioned (to lazy to read everything). Many people on this board seem to either knock high mileage or advocate it. Mileage has to be looked at in terms of intensity, how it is split up, and point in season.

Simply 100 easy mile in a week is going to be much easier on your body than 100 hard miles. 100 easy miles can be very beneficial. 100 hard miles might just tear you apart mentally and phisically.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe no one has mentioned this: 100 miles can be split up many ways, for example two 7mile runs a day, or one 14 mile run. The first would be less demanding so therefore if you run 100mpw by running twice a day its really not that much.

During the offseason, high mileage should be practiced for obvious reasons. If high mileage is done during the end of a season then it could be detrimental.

As you read this, I'm sure you'll conclude that I'm no expert. Just a high school soph with common sense.

I think you are right I as a incoming senior I want to do 85 to 90 miles. I did it gradually because my old bases are 80 on doubles and 70 on singles. Because of adding base I mproved a 4:39 mile to a 4:21 mile. Now I did it easy with 2 days a week being more strenius but no more than AT pace. Easy running is the way to go. All you want in summer is to improve your anerobic capacity not anything else. You can not think of times just nice easy miles. If it gets tough then that is too much. Also inorder to do high miles you have to love the sport otherwise just have fun. I can not picture myself not runnning. Anyways not any kid can go out and do 100mpw. You have to have years of building base to do it.

Not a great idea