Being disciplined during the easy runs is as important as being disciplined at the faster paces.
70% of max is in the middle of the easy range. However, when such an intensity results in a pace that appears too slow, there is always a tendency by some to think that can’t be correct.
Being disciplined during the easy runs is as important as being disciplined at the faster paces.
70% of max is in the middle of the easy range. However, when such an intensity results in a pace that appears too slow, there is always a tendency by some to think that can’t be correct.
I believe it! Going to be very intentional with these easy efforts.
I can believe that it is correct that my "true" easy pace is that slow. There is good reason to believe I've never trained below LT1 in the past - how else could that system develop?
Once my aerobic system develops more, I am sure I can find myself below 70% easier. 65% would have me at 131 bpm, which I can hit after doing some A/B skips lol. I have lots of work to do in that department, and I'm ready to get after it!
Instead of emulating pros and modeling training on the theories of elite level coaches, most runners would be more fit, injured less, and would glean better results if they followed the training of the late ED WHITLOCK. Running loads of miles three minutes slower than his marathon pace elicited some amazing results. Likely, because he focused almost exclusively on easy aerobic running without looking for hacks and shortcuts.
“Runners testing based on superstition and the scientifically false belief that there’s a minimum effort required for endurance training to be beneficial.”
I disagree. Training 30 seconds per mile slower than you suggest crushed me over time. It is 2 minutes faster than what is proven to be my LT1 as well, a massive margin in this context.
My theory on why I have to train so slow is due to extreme aerobic deficiency. I was able to run 19:35 last month likely because I borrowed a lot from my anaerobic system. I was absolutely redlining the entire time and it was really a death march 3k in.
I have a feeling we get very hung up on race equivalency calculators. They can be a very helpful tool, however they do not consider someone who is aerobically deficient. The calculators assume you are aerobically fit. How do I know this? Well VDOT says my threshold pace should be 6:44. Tinman says 6:46-6:55. My LT2 was tested at 8:02. These are very different paces, especially for someone who has been running for 2 years only.
I am learning there is a lot of nuance with the topic of easy running. You have to consider more factors than just race times.
I saw your post in the Norwegian thread regarding your lactate test. Would it be too much to ask for a basic breakdown of your training? Specifically, how many miles (or hours) per week you run and what type of workouts, if any, you were/are doing?
Your post made me think of the Hadd thread and how a lot of runners 1) don't run enough volume and/or 2) run their volume too fast and therefore don't properly train their spectrum of fibers (or metabolism, if you wish). It sounds like you had a feeling that was happening and caught it, which is great! Hopefully that revelation leads to improved training and performance in the years to come for you!
I’m glad someone brought up Gibby’s training earlier. Early Lydiard training was very similar. None of this jogging around BS. Once again I think 5K + 2 min is a rough but practical threshold that many runners can wrap their head around. You have to be careful though. High mileage at those easy paces doesn’t work for everybody. Lower your mileage if need be and always focus on workout volume over easy run volume.
I disagree. Training 30 seconds per mile slower than you suggest crushed me over time. It is 2 minutes faster than what is proven to be my LT1 as well, a massive margin in this context.
My theory on why I have to train so slow is due to extreme aerobic deficiency. I was able to run 19:35 last month likely because I borrowed a lot from my anaerobic system. I was absolutely redlining the entire time and it was really a death march 3k in.
I have a feeling we get very hung up on race equivalency calculators. They can be a very helpful tool, however they do not consider someone who is aerobically deficient. The calculators assume you are aerobically fit. How do I know this? Well VDOT says my threshold pace should be 6:44. Tinman says 6:46-6:55. My LT2 was tested at 8:02. These are very different paces, especially for someone who has been running for 2 years only.
I am learning there is a lot of nuance with the topic of easy running. You have to consider more factors than just race times.
I saw your post in the Norwegian thread regarding your lactate test. Would it be too much to ask for a basic breakdown of your training? Specifically, how many miles (or hours) per week you run and what type of workouts, if any, you were/are doing?
Your post made me think of the Hadd thread and how a lot of runners 1) don't run enough volume and/or 2) run their volume too fast and therefore don't properly train their spectrum of fibers (or metabolism, if you wish). It sounds like you had a feeling that was happening and caught it, which is great! Hopefully that revelation leads to improved training and performance in the years to come for you!
Absolutely. It's tough to give an overall breakdown because I was so inconsistent but see below for some example weeks of the type of stuff I used to do a while back (daniels) and the stuff I was doing lately leading up to the 19:35 turkey trot. I'll include the TSS scores assigned to them as well to show the impact on the body.
1/2/2023-1/8/2023: 47.9 miles, 7:19 duration, Daniels 5k training, total TSS of 991
M: 5 mile (3.5 miles easy + 10 strides), avg pace 10:20, 20 sec strides at 6:00) - TSS of 87
T: 2 mile warmup/drills, 2 x 8x200 @ 44, 200 rest, 800 between sets, 2 mile cooldown - 8.56 miles, avg pace 8:48 - TSS of 181
W: 7.71 miles, 9:07 avg pace - TSS of 153
Th: off
F: 2 mi warmup, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 x 1 mi threshold (6:50), 1 min rest, 4 x 200/200 jog, 2 mi cooldown, 8.28 miles, 8:37 avg pace - TSS of 178
Not a fair comparison as the volume/duration is way lower, but my last 3 weeks have been (17.6 mi/3 hours 32 min/268 total tss), (18.4 mi/3 hours 47 min/277 TSS), (21 mi/4 hours 2 min/325 TSS). The big jump in TSS the third week was due to the lactate threshold test on that Wednesday. Most easy runs are giving me TSS of 39-50.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
Wizard you are trying to get in shape but you can not even run a mile at 70-75%..... So how are you going to get in shape....I think you should run at 40% and lose some weight first
I’m glad someone brought up Gibby’s training earlier. Early Lydiard training was very similar. None of this jogging around BS. Once again I think 5K + 2 min is a rough but practical threshold that many runners can wrap their head around. You have to be careful though. High mileage at those easy paces doesn’t work for everybody. Lower your mileage if need be and always focus on workout volume over easy run volume.
5k+2min isn't 6 min easy pace until someone is around 13 mins for 5k
I’d argue that 5K + 2 min is actually a reasonably conservative target. That’s approx 6:10 pace for someone in 13:00 5K shape and approx 7:30 pace for someone in 17:00 5K shape.
We often talk about ego and how runners do their easy runs too fast out of pride. However, I think it’s just as easy to fall into the mileage ego trap.
For example, if I’m in 17:00 5K shape right now I could try to run 6-7 miles on my easy days at 7:30 pace (in addition to 2-3 hard workouts per week), overtrain, and then conclude that I was simply running too fast on my easy days.
Alternatively, I could run 3-4 miles on my easy days at 7:30 pace until I’ve adapted and then MAYBE over time increase that volume if I happen to be a responder to, and can recover well off of, a generous amount of steady state running.
But if not, I’d pull more on the intensity lever and leave the easy run volume where it’s at. In short, intensity is the most potent stimulus we have in our arsenal, more potent than sheer volume, for triggering adaptations.
I have about 2 years of running in me, albeit some stupid training (jumping up to 40 mpw too quick with workouts way too fast). This got me to a 5k PB of 19:11 (recently ran 19:35), but I literally felt like crap all the time. I ran easy runs at 8:30-9:30 and lied to myself thinking they were easy. Ego/strava got to me and I kept like this for months. This resulted in a strava mileage graph that looked like a TDF or UTMB stage. I could never stay consistent as I felt burnt out.
I recently got lactate testing (and purchased a meter, but more later) and discovered my LT1 (1.4 mmol on a lactate plus meter) occurred around 10:32 pace. This was pretty eye opening because it meant nearly 100% of my training occurred above my LT1. My LT2 (2.5 mmol on lactate plus meter) wound up being around 8:05 pace.
Since these findings, I have basically started from scratch with my training. I am on week 4 of running 6-7 days easy. Building from 3 hours a week to 6.5 across 10 weeks. I think I will begin some controlled threshold workouts with my new meter in week 8 or so. The important thing to note is my easy pace is now 11-12.5 minutes/mile. I run with a chest strap HRM and have kept everything as close to 70% max HR (141 for me) on average as I can. I am hoping this pace improves over time, but feel confident that it is where I should be right now. My old "easy" days left me so tired throughout the day and getting through them without stopping was a chore. Now I feel nice and refreshed and almost joyous through these runs, enjoying the run and the nature views vs looking at my watch and thinking "am I done yet?"
I am planning on staying very disciplined with the easy running. My meter comes in this week and I am planning on testing after some easy runs just to get the hang of it before I use it for workouts when time is of the essence. We shall see how things go!
Your case is almost word-word what Scott Johnston from the Uphill Athlete book describes as Aerobic Deficiency Syndrome. His clients often have to go back to 11-13min/miles to fix it. He says that most get down to 10min/mile pace within half a year on a steady diet of truly easy running.
Can we bound the discussion to athletes who can do an easy run in this zone, lt1, or whatever. So not total beginners or undertrained runners on low mileage programs or sprinters. Few people with at least a year to two of running need to walk to maintain an easy pace. Those that do would probably benefit from a program that included minimal speedwork or nothing faster than short reps at lt until they could complete easy runs.
Yes, for the runners I believe we should discuss ego can often get in the way of slowing down. Running on the lower end g easy aerobic pace an feel boring. Many lose confidence in the overall plan when running that slow too. But are they right? Do they benefit from faster easy runs an if so how much faster for that benefit? Can a running improve optimally with a program that could for easy runs at 60-65% mhr?
I have about 2 years of running in me, albeit some stupid training (jumping up to 40 mpw too quick with workouts way too fast). This got me to a 5k PB of 19:11 (recently ran 19:35), but I literally felt like crap all the time. I ran easy runs at 8:30-9:30 and lied to myself thinking they were easy. Ego/strava got to me and I kept like this for months. This resulted in a strava mileage graph that looked like a TDF or UTMB stage. I could never stay consistent as I felt burnt out.
I recently got lactate testing (and purchased a meter, but more later) and discovered my LT1 (1.4 mmol on a lactate plus meter) occurred around 10:32 pace. This was pretty eye opening because it meant nearly 100% of my training occurred above my LT1. My LT2 (2.5 mmol on lactate plus meter) wound up being around 8:05 pace.
Since these findings, I have basically started from scratch with my training. I am on week 4 of running 6-7 days easy. Building from 3 hours a week to 6.5 across 10 weeks. I think I will begin some controlled threshold workouts with my new meter in week 8 or so. The important thing to note is my easy pace is now 11-12.5 minutes/mile. I run with a chest strap HRM and have kept everything as close to 70% max HR (141 for me) on average as I can. I am hoping this pace improves over time, but feel confident that it is where I should be right now. My old "easy" days left me so tired throughout the day and getting through them without stopping was a chore. Now I feel nice and refreshed and almost joyous through these runs, enjoying the run and the nature views vs looking at my watch and thinking "am I done yet?"
I am planning on staying very disciplined with the easy running. My meter comes in this week and I am planning on testing after some easy runs just to get the hang of it before I use it for workouts when time is of the essence. We shall see how things go!
I doubt you will improve at 5 k with normaly slower easy runs than around 9 min miles that is compatible with your 19:35 5 k shape right now. Running 11-12,5 min miles now is too slow to back up for your 19:35 5k shape in case your endurance shape correlate to your 19:35 shape.If the correlation between your 19:35 and your endurance shape is much bigger it's of course okey to slow down . Good luck! 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
Jeff Galloway says walking is good aerobic development and he's an Olympian so good enough for me.
Well, Jeff says walking is a good aerobic developer in a context together with run reps inbetween. But of course only walking can't make you a better runner. 😉😁
If you run too fast on easy runs, you compromise the volume you get for the muscle fibers that have the greatest capacity for aerobic development; too slow and you don’t recruit those fibers.
There’s a sweet spot. For most it’s about mile pace plus about 3 min. Blanks 6 min pace is essentially mile plus 2 min and is the upper end. He can handle it as he has young fresh legs. IMO, that approach doesn’t age well as it beats you up.
Dont know how he’s running his easy runs these days but Rupp did his easy runs at 6min and without modern surgical techniques his career would’ve been over a long time ago.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Jeff Galloway says walking is good aerobic development and he's an Olympian so good enough for me.
Well, Jeff says walking is a good aerobic developer in a context together with run reps inbetween. But of course only walking can't make you a better runner. 😉😁
Walking 20k a day would make you a much better runner. I can guarantee this.
You need mostly easy runs to be steady around 70-75% of MHR . If running steady at this pace you get most aerob boost for your bucks. This easy steady pace is one of the main reasons why runners have been at the world top even if running relatively low mileage. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
I believe Kellogg suggested 60-65% mhr would give you these benefits while making it easier to recover. Basis of 70-75?
I think Daniels is a much more reliable source of this together with my very long experience in running, both practically and studying scientific reports and world top runners training in history on relatively low mileage. Then e.g you have Canova who advocates 70-80 % of MHR at the easy steady runs to his long time experienced runners for them to have a chance to still improve or maintain their endurance to coop with the faster runs.When he changed Sondre Moen from a 2:13 to a 2:05 marathoner this with the faster pace at the easy steady runs was a significant change. This I told Sondre to do even before Canova practised it coaching Sondre. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
I believe Kellogg suggested 60-65% mhr would give you these benefits while making it easier to recover. Basis of 70-75?
I think Daniels is a much more reliable source of this together with my very long experience in running, both practically and studying scientific reports and world top runners training in history on relatively low mileage. Then e.g you have Canova who advocates 70-80 % of MHR at the easy steady runs to his long time experienced runners for them to have a chance to still improve or maintain their endurance to coop with the faster runs.When he changed Sondre Moen from a 2:13 to a 2:05 marathoner this with the faster pace at the easy steady runs was a significant change. This I told Sondre to do even before Canova practised it coaching Sondre. 🇸🇪🧙🏼♂️🇸🇪
Daniels' formulae are simplified pace suggestions for people who don't bother much with research. Canova is more philosophical.
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