Anyone else shocked by what these ultra trail runners ran for their turkey trots

who da fk is u? nobody. thought so wrote:

the problem with your logic is it doesn't make any sense. not every east african is raking in big bucks traveling the WMM circuit. There are a bunch of fringe athletes barely scraping by, hoping to break thru or hold onto the end of their careers. Why wouldn't *any* of those guys switch to trails if it's as easy (and they would be as dominant) as you claim?

Here is an example: the Valencia Marathon in 2018 paid $30k for first down to $3k for 6th.

The 6th place finisher ran a 2:05:26 for $3k. 7th place ran 2:06:21 and got nothing.

You are saying that these 2:05 to 2:07 marathoners, barely making any money on the roads, wouldn't want to immediately become the top ultra runner of all time? Personally, I think being a dominant, all-time ultra runner would be more lucrative than a fringe marathoner lucky to make $10k in prize money in a year.

For example, 147 people ran under 2:08 in 2022 and 157 have already this year. None of them would have any interest in so easily becoming the greatest ultra runner of time? Let alone all the 2:08 thru 2:12 people that also should so easily convert to dominance? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Link:worldathletics.org/news/press-releases...

Link:www.watchathletics.com/article/10649/r...

maybe they're on to something wrote:

ummmm no wrote:

Valencia pays appearance fees to the top 15-20 runners on each side, and has a heavy bonus incentive. They make 2x what they would for winning UTMB just for showing up. The "fringe marathoners" you're talking about clear $50-80k a year just for entering races. If you won every single big trail race, you still wouldn't make that much.

You have zero idea what you're talking about.

What about the 21st or 25th runner on the start line of Valencia that's not getting any appearance money? I'd imagine in this day and age being a 2:10 marathoner can't bring in that much money. Especially if you're the hundredth Kenyan to do it this year. Now imagine if these sub 2:10 guys can easily whip these pro ultra runners like so many on here say they can at their own game. How much more money would that bring to them? Look at Jim Walmsley, if he would've focused his whole running career on the marathon he would've been at best maybe a 2:11 marathoner. But he focused on mountain ultras instead and is bringing I'm guessing a solid upper six figure salary now. Now imagine if a 2:08 Kenyan or Ethiopian focused on ultras, sub 14 hour Western States time? I mean it should be easy according to all the ultra haters on here.

ummmm no wrote:

maybe they're on to something wrote:

What about the 21st or 25th runner on the start line of Valencia that's not getting any appearance money? I'd imagine in this day and age being a 2:10 marathoner can't bring in that much money. Especially if you're the hundredth Kenyan to do it this year. Now imagine if these sub 2:10 guys can easily whip these pro ultra runners like so many on here say they can at their own game. How much more money would that bring to them? Look at Jim Walmsley, if he would've focused his whole running career on the marathon he would've been at best maybe a 2:11 marathoner. But he focused on mountain ultras instead and is bringing I'm guessing a solid upper six figure salary now. Now imagine if a 2:08 Kenyan or Ethiopian focused on ultras, sub 14 hour Western States time? I mean it should be easy according to all the ultra haters on here.

ok first of all, the 21-25th guys ARE getting paid. They're getting their travel funded and their accomodations paid, and they're likely being paid on the side by their agencies as part of an earnings-in-the-future arrangement. And they're getting an appearance fee, evcen if it's only $2k.

"How much money would that bring them?" Extremely little. Walmsley doesn't get paid because he wins; he gets paid because he wins, and he's white, American, does interviews, has an intriguing back story that other white Americans identify with, and does media-friendly things like running through the Grand Canyon for fun.

Courtney gets paid because she wins, wears baggy shorts, hallucinates, has a cool mom, has great teeth, and has a great back story that ther White Americans identify with.

Zach Miller gets paid because he wins, used to live in a cabin on the side of a mountain, sewts up coffee bars at random races, lives in a van he built himself, and...

...you get the point.

Ultra runners don't get paid for winning races. That's why Harvey Lewis still has a day job.

ummmm no wrote:

who da fk is u? nobody. thought so wrote:

the problem with your logic is it doesn't make any sense. not every east african is raking in big bucks traveling the WMM circuit. There are a bunch of fringe athletes barely scraping by, hoping to break thru or hold onto the end of their careers. Why wouldn't *any* of those guys switch to trails if it's as easy (and they would be as dominant) as you claim?

Because the trail races are really far away, nobody will fly them there, and the prize money isn't enough to justify the trip.

You're confusing racing with making a living; no brands are going to fund a random African to run trail races. Jim and Courtney sell shoes. Nobody's buying a pair of Lone Peaks because Dickson Chumba won Leadville wearing them, so Altra ain't going to pay him to run.

ummmm no wrote:

who da fk is u? nobody. thought so wrote:

the problem with your logic is it doesn't make any sense. not every east african is raking in big bucks traveling the WMM circuit. There are a bunch of fringe athletes barely scraping by, hoping to break thru or hold onto the end of their careers. Why wouldn't *any* of those guys switch to trails if it's as easy (and they would be as dominant) as you claim?

Here is an example: the Valencia Marathon in 2018 paid $30k for first down to $3k for 6th.

The 6th place finisher ran a 2:05:26 for $3k. 7th place ran 2:06:21 and got nothing.

You are saying that these 2:05 to 2:07 marathoners, barely making any money on the roads, wouldn't want to immediately become the top ultra runner of all time? Personally, I think being a dominant, all-time ultra runner would be more lucrative than a fringe marathoner lucky to make $10k in prize money in a year.

For example, 147 people ran under 2:08 in 2022 and 157 have already this year. None of them would have any interest in so easily becoming the greatest ultra runner of time? Let alone all the 2:08 thru 2:12 people that also should so easily convert to dominance? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Link:worldathletics.org/news/press-releases...

Link:www.watchathletics.com/article/10649/r...

Valencia pays appearance fees to the top 15-20 runners on each side, and has a heavy bonus incentive. They make 2x what they would for winning UTMB just for showing up. The "fringe marathoners" you're talking about clear $50-80k a year just for entering races. If you won every single big trail race, you still wouldn't make that much.

You have zero idea what you're talking about.

ykw wrote:

ummmm no wrote:

ok first of all, the 21-25th guys ARE getting paid. They're getting their travel funded and their accomodations paid, and they're likely being paid on the side by their agencies as part of an earnings-in-the-future arrangement. And they're getting an appearance fee, evcen if it's only $2k.

"How much money would that bring them?" Extremely little. Walmsley doesn't get paid because he wins; he gets paid because he wins, and he's white, American, does interviews, has an intriguing back story that other white Americans identify with, and does media-friendly things like running through the Grand Canyon for fun.

Courtney gets paid because she wins, wears baggy shorts, hallucinates, has a cool mom, has great teeth, and has a great back story that ther White Americans identify with.

Zach Miller gets paid because he wins, used to live in a cabin on the side of a mountain, sewts up coffee bars at random races, lives in a van he built himself, and...

...you get the point.

Ultra runners don't get paid for winning races. That's why Harvey Lewis still has a day job.

I don't quite buy it that if some Eastern African come along and completely dominate trail running, people will just ignore him because of race.

Jim walmsley's real back story is that he dominated Western States, and similarly Courtney's real back story is that she completely dominates women's trail ultras. People are attracted to them because their performance, then people start to find them interesting, not the other way around. Being a interesting person is a plus, but being interesting alone only makes influencers, not sport sensations. Performance is first and foremost. If Jim walmsley didn't win UTMB this year his popularity will fade, being white or not.

Tylermorton wrote:

S. Canaday wrote:

I think a lot of sub 2:10 and sub 2:05 pro marathoners could do really well at ultras (even 100-mile "mountain courses") like Hardrock or UTMB. Javelina would obviously be a faster and easier transition initially because it is pretty flat and not a "big mountain" ultra.

The issue is, if you're a 2:05 guy on the roads you're probably making more money for sure (compared to switching to ultras).

And a lot of the E. Africans probably don't even know about "ultra trail running." It's really such a small niche part of distance running.

Finally, even if Kipchoge wanted to do a race like Hardrock...he wouldn't be able to get in for years likely! Hardrock is one of the most exclusive and niche ultra-trail mountain races and they have a biased "lottery" that favors old timers who have already done the race disproportionately.

Even if someone like him wanted to do UTMB they'd have to qualify at a UTMB event first and get "stones" and establish a "UTMB index"....there are so many more barriers to entry...

I agree with most of Sage comments about ultrarunning but he is dead wrong when it comes to longer ultras and elite marathoners trying them.

Kenyan's could have done Comrades Marathon for the last 20 years and yet they have not produced any significant results there.

Alberta Salazar tried Comrades once after the end of his Marathon career and he won that one. I can see that some top Marathon runners could repeat that. But they still have to show up and it's very likely they won't even try it. Why? The risk is higher than the reward. They know already that running 5+ hours is a lot longer than running just 2 hours.

Some of these runners could do well in 100k road races as well but again they have to show up.

With 100 mile trail races and especially Hardrock or UMTB, absolutely zero change.

Kipchoge would be sitting weeping at an aid station at mile 30 at UMTB at night with some rain and DNF right there. All of these top Marathoners are highly specialized athletes. There is almost zero chance that they will finish a 100 miler no matter the time.

The 2:15-20 Marathon who might do well in ultraraces, is actually happening for a long time. Top ultrarunners did sub 2:30 already 40 years ago. Yiannis Kouros did 2:24 I think when he was young. Others did sub 2:20 to sub 2:30. But that doesn't mean that all sub 2:30 Marathoners could have done it.

This is always a great way to diminish the results of the people who actually show up on race day and race.