Same spin; it's all about the bike. It's my high cadence. It's about my team. We've heard it all before.
Well I understand the sentiment, but when I asked John Kellogg about this thread he said, "At least they are making the right excuses now."
Meaning back in the 80s and 90s when we heard it was low mileage, plyos, etc that ddn't make any sense. At least this gives people a sliver of hope that it could be from clean running as high mileage is about the only thing that could make it be plausible.
Of course not. That would require educating yourself.
I have already educated you on Wilma Rudolph's career today. I know a lot more about this sport than you ever will.
But Armstronglivs IS the foremost authority on the sport. Why else would he post literally 100's of times a day (seemingly thousands at times), if that weren't so? He is trying to educate the rest of us. That wouldn't be so insulting, except that some of us are about as old as him, have been more involved in the sport (as athletes and coaches), but don't talk down to all and sundry with an arrogant attitude that all posters, but him, are stupid.
Same spin; it's all about the bike. It's my high cadence. It's about my team. We've heard it all before.
Well I understand the sentiment, but when I asked John Kellogg about this thread he said, "At least they are making the right excuses now."
Meaning back in the 80s and 90s when we heard it was low mileage, plyos, etc that ddn't make any sense. At least this gives people a sliver of hope that it could be from clean running as high mileage is about the only thing that could make it be plausible.
Serious question Rojo… wasn’t Wejo’s best marathon just barely under 2:20? Now, I’m not saying he was specializing in the event or had many opportunities to run it or was running 300k per week. But, even if he specialized in it, does he get almost 20 minutes faster by increasing his mileage moderately from where it was? 20 minutes?! Does he even get 10 minutes faster? 2:00 is light years ahead of 2:10. Jerry Lawson used to do the 300k per week, and he did manage a sub-2:10 in his brief career, but he didn’t manage three of them in about a year. So, are these Africans really ten minutes faster because of altitude and higher volume? What changed, besides the shoes, which do help?
Julian was still racing pretty well in his forties. How do you know he wore out? Remember that Arthur meant those 100 miles were run in your main session and at your "best aerobic speed" and also recommended "supplemental jogging." Yes, doping could allow someone who struggled to get much past 100 a week to go much farther but there are plenty of people who could go well beyond 100 a week without drugs.
Julian's career faded early, by Tokyo '64. One of the reasons given was he overtrained.
None of Arthur's marathoners ran well in Tokyo. In 1969 he won the Canadian National Exposition Marathon in Toronto in 2:15:41 and got his all time PB of 2:14:38 in December at Fukuoka. In 1975, he'd have been 39 or 40, he won the Auckland Marathon. That's some fade.
I don’t know anyone who believes Bedford was clean either.
Really?
What did you hear, from whom and what do you think he was on?
I was going to ask that too. I was around for Bedford's heyday and cannot recall hearing any insinuation that he was taking anything illegal. Maybe people brought that up years later just because they could.
I'm old enough to remember David Bedford at his best. He was running 3-4 times a day 200 =/- mpw.
When he was healthy he was breaking world records and winning (World Cross by what at least was the biggest margin ever).
It's the mileage and I believe lifestyle has something to do with it- live a very simple life of running, resting and a simple, healthy diet.
So why wasn't Bedford running modern times if he was training that hard? Yup - he was missing something they all do today.
Perhaps with modern methods and equipment and fewer pints in the pub he could have.
Henry Rono was a full time alcoholic and ran faster than Dave did at every distance. Is it very difficult to imagine that someone with similar talent who is not getting drunk every day could run much faster?
What did you hear, from whom and what do you think he was on?
I was going to ask that too. I was around for Bedford's heyday and cannot recall hearing any insinuation that he was taking anything illegal. Maybe people brought that up years later just because they could.
I’ve been fortunate to know Dave a long time. 100 pct legitimate.
Well I understand the sentiment, but when I asked John Kellogg about this thread he said, "At least they are making the right excuses now."
Meaning back in the 80s and 90s when we heard it was low mileage, plyos, etc that ddn't make any sense. At least this gives people a sliver of hope that it could be from clean running as high mileage is about the only thing that could make it be plausible.
Yes. And the other piece of this is I like that his coach is saying "I don't know if he's going to have a long career, he might be training too much and too fast." I know many here assume the KIM group was dirty because of how fast they ran in the pre-EPO test era. A totally fair thing to think.
However, the one thing you hear (and can find in threads here from guys who jumped in the group) is that guys like Komen, Ngeny and so on trained extremely hard. So hard that it might not be for the best in terms of their long-term viability. Ngeny had a car crash, so that muddies it a bit. But in general I find it more plausible those guys could reach a high upper level, but not hold it for a ton of time (especially after Kim McDonald passed). This contrasted with some of the guys more focused on durability (e.g. Nick Willis) over training their absolute hardest at any point. It doesn't even really seem like the OAC thinks their workouts are particularly hard, and yet Nuguse is running 3:43 off of them (while noting he doesn't try to compete with the less talented/slower Garcia Romo in them).
Even 38-year-old Kipchoge at this point training with a bunch of 2:04-2:06 guys and running more like 130mpw...is he really going balls-to-the-wall? No, not really...he is doing sustainable training and as a result with a good setup and great mechanics he is never hurt pretty much.
I have no idea if Kiptum is doping, but he is running massive mileage, pushing his body to the limit, and didn't wait until after his physical peak to run the marathon. Those would be the ingredients to stress the limits of marathon. It's not going to be Cheptegei IMO as he is relatively low-mileage (80 mpw on hilly terrain) by all accounts despite his enormous strength. I think he would have to abandon track racing and get serious about his mileage (not just running 100-110 mpw for a couple months) to compete with a Kiptum.
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The late Sammy Wanjiru ran very high millage.Geofrey Mutai ran high millage too though slightly less.Kiptum's program is slightly similar to Geofrey's but with more millage in it .I think its a risky strategy but so far its working for him.
Kiptum running with marathon/road runners from age 13 onwards in a village sitting at 8,000 ft altitude might’ve been an advantage.
Personal intuition: the age when starting the aerobic development might be overlooked. And more specifically what aerobic development was done before puberty.
I also find it funny he mentioned keeping goats and sheep before starting formal training, something which was also a documenting activity of a guy named Kilian Jornet.
At least this will put and end to this retarded idea that Kenyans run their easy runs at pedestrian paces like 8-9 minute miles. It´s more like 4,10-3,40/km.
Kiptum, who regularly runs 150+ miles a week, runs so hard in training that his coach Gervais Hakizimana wants him to slow down: "I told him that in five years he would be done, that he must calm down to last in athletics."
Might be worth mentioning that there are local club runners worldwide who run 100 mile weeks whilst holding down full time jobs. They will be training at a much slower pace than elite athletes so actual time spent training per mile will be far greater. So although Kiptum's training mileage is impressive it is more relatable to these club runners when you consider the the actual time per mile he spends training as well as reports that state that his entire life consists of 'train, eat, sleep'
Rather than the doping explanation, could these incredible times be due to incredible mileage?
God it drives me nuts when people make this terrible argument. Doping allows you to recover better and can keep you healthy during intense training blocks. Pretty much every top runner would train this way if they thought their body could hold up to this. They can't, and I'm highly skeptical that Kiptum is an exception and just the next doper in a long line.
I have no idea why the "I work hard so I can't be doping" argument still holds any water.
Salazar's competitive decline is often attributed to the stress on his body from that memorable Duel in the Sun detailed in the eponymous book by John Brant.[10] Salazar recounts falling into a "more-is-better" mindset which led him to reason that if 120 miles per week yielded a certain level of success, then 180 miles (290 km) or even 200 miles (320 km) would bring even better results. This intense and grueling regimen of such extremely long distances led to a breakdown of his immune system, and he found himself frequently sick, injured, and otherwise unable to continue training. After failing to make the 1988 Olympic Marathon Team Salazar opened a successful restaurant in Eugene, Oregon. Although only able to stagger through four or five miles per run, he remained obsessed with training. Brant wrote that "He couldn't run, yet he couldn't stop running." Salazar unsuccessfully visited the Stanford Sleep Clinic and a cardiologist, had surgery, and trained in Kenya. In 1994 he said that "For most of the last 10 years, I hated running. I hated it with a passion. I used to wish for a cataclysmic injury in which I would lose one of my legs. I know that sounds terrible, but if I had lost a leg, then I wouldn't have to torture myself anymore."[10]
It is, in fact, true. Seems most runners nowadays refuse to acknowledge the effectiveness of mileage. If you’re able to handle it and recover, it WILL increase your aerobic fitness.
Molly Seidel peaked in the 130s for the trials, the Olympics and Chicago.
I’ve seen nothing to discredit Lydiard’s “Miles make champions” quote and everything to confirm it.
Now, if you want to argue against it on the basis of longevity, that’s different.
So what drugs help prevent you from getting injured when running up to 300kms per week?
Is this a case of an EPO and steroid cocktail or is it the new super shoes preventing runners from getting injured on such high mileage? is all of the running on soft surfaces?
Every individual responds to and recovers from the stress of training differently.
Consider all the things that seem to be true about Kiptum and his training that have contributed to his success and ability to cover many miles per week in training.
He is extremely talented. He started training for long races (half marathons) at a young age.
He grew up and lives/trains at relatively high altitude.
He started training with elite runners at a young age. (like Jakob)
He started running long (half marathon) races at a young age.
He is only 23 but has been training seriously for 10 years. (similar to Jakob)
He is only and likely is more fearless and can adapt and recover more quickly than older runners.
He runs trains by running high mileage at fast paces.
He may respond to high mileage at fast paces better than others.
He may be a super responder to super shoes.
He may wear super shoes for most/all of his training (Kipchoge seems to be wearing super shoes during all recent videos of him training).
Super shoes may help him train longer and faster than regular shoes.
Super shoes may help him recover faster than regular shoes.
Super shoes may allow him to cover more miles in less cumulative time than others wearing regular shoes.
He does his jogging easy runs at a relatively fast pace, so he covers more miles per time spent training than if he ran slower.
He does many fast continuous runs at fast paces, which helps him accumulate many miles per week in less time.
His training is specific to the marathon (multiple sessions of 30-40k at near marathon race pace.)
When he does hard training he is running alone (training alone makes it easier to set records and win alone).
He does not feel pain during marathons.
He focuses on running, only runs, eats and sleeps (similar to Kipchoge)
He may have already made more money from running than he ever dreamed possible.
He may not care about longevity in running.
Rest is not built into his training, he rests only when he is tired.
He may believe it's better to burn out than to fade away.
