I remember the first time I ran Silver Rush 50 miler which was my first go at an ultra. Michael Aish smashed it that year and then was out helping direct traffic after. Had a good chat with him, super nice guy! Not really much to contribute to the conversation at hand but thought I'd share.
North Face offered some good money for their championship race also. No EAs showed up.
My theory would be that running a hard 50 or any 100 would required a break afterwards, and they might not be able to race again for a while, unlike zipping into town winning a 10k and zipping off to the next town.
Me thinks someone recently won the women's category in 3 100 milers in a span of 3 mounths.
An intellectually honest discussion of how well a sub 2:10 marathoner would do in trail racing would start with a trail race of approximately the same time. If this years Sierra-Zinal (31K/2200 meters elev) is any indication the EA will do quite well: #1&2 Kiriago & Kipngeno. I could go on but I think this speaks volumes.
It's actually kind of complicated to get into some of these races and I'd imagine that would be discouraging for a lot of marathon road runners (especially if from countires like those in East Africa).
That's why mountain-ultra trail 100-milers are usually full of mostly caucasian men in their 30s and 40s and 50s with disposable income who have the time and flexibility to train and travel.
This is very true. I wanted to run UTMB or HardRock just to cross them out of my bucket list, and it turns out that it takes a 2-3 years commitment and some luck to get enough points and be selected to run one of these races. Most of the other long trail races I looked up, also require you to have run X-shorter trails, do community service etc... you cannot just sign up and run.
In sum, it’s not that elite marathoners couldn’t become elite mountain ultramarathoners because ultramarathoners are so special, it’s that there is a multi year learning curve to do so, particularly with longer races in terms of learning new gear, stride patterns, terrain, nutrition, and overall race management techniques. Factoring all that in, it’s not so simple as taking an Uber from Iten to Steamboat and picking up your $15,000 check. Add in the fact that few races have appearance fees, and the economics aren’t as appealing as they seem at first.
That said, the fact that someone like Courtney Dauwalter, someone with no high level traditional running background, so thoroughly dominates long mountain ultras, hints that there is a unique skill set required to succeed at these events. It dovetails with traditional running, but the overlap is only partial.
You do realize that East Africans dominate the s**t out of Amers and Euros on technical cross country courses, don't you? They would have no problem with the technical aspect of ultra running.
You do realize that there is no such thing as a "technical" cross country course, don't you?
15k is good but not really enough to attract the pro marathon crowd if you can only do 2 or 3 races a year. You probably have to spend 1k on mandatory gear plus the entry, travel etc. This kind of race isn't going to fly you in and put you up in a hotel.
It's good to see some decent money being put up though.
you're saying that Africans couldn't possibly figure out something so complex as "gear management"? Yeah, okay
Re: "no top runners do it": Courtney Dauwalter actually burst onto the ultra running scene right after winning Run Rabbit 100 in 2016. It was a huge jump forward for her and really put her name on the map.
I also think a lot of 2:10 kinda marathoners would obviously crush a lot of ultramarathons. (Even 100-milers+). People focus on the distance like "100-miles" or "50-miles" but the bigger difference is the type of trail you are running on. Does it have over 20% grade steep trails a lot? Is it technical? A mountain trail? Do you have to carry a 4lb pack of gear and are the aid stations far apart? How efficient will your aid station crew be?
I've said this for years on here and I'll say it again: Success in ultras correlates very highly with best marathon times. Yes, of course sometimes the 2:15 guy has a horrible meltdown and gets beat by the 2:25 or 2:30 guy. But generally they are destroying the 2:40 guy.
I think Sage is correct. In a technical 100 it would be difficult. But I think if you put whoever wins the Houston Marathon in the rocky raccoon 100 (a flat, easy course) they’d likely win it. Particularly if we are talking about someone who is a 2:10 marathoner. Just some months of specific training to prepare for a lot of extra miles and they’d win.
Re: "no top runners do it": Courtney Dauwalter actually burst onto the ultra running scene right after winning Run Rabbit 100 in 2016. It was a huge jump forward for her and really put her name on the map.
I also think a lot of 2:10 kinda marathoners would obviously crush a lot of ultramarathons. (Even 100-milers+). People focus on the distance like "100-miles" or "50-miles" but the bigger difference is the type of trail you are running on. Does it have over 20% grade steep trails a lot? Is it technical? A mountain trail? Do you have to carry a 4lb pack of gear and are the aid stations far apart? How efficient will your aid station crew be?
I've said this for years on here and I'll say it again: Success in ultras correlates very highly with best marathon times. Yes, of course sometimes the 2:15 guy has a horrible meltdown and gets beat by the 2:25 or 2:30 guy. But generally they are destroying the 2:40 guy.
I think Sage is correct. In a technical 100 it would be difficult. But I think if you put whoever wins the Houston Marathon in the rocky raccoon 100 (a flat, easy course) they’d likely win it. Particularly if we are talking about someone who is a 2:10 marathoner. Just some months of specific training to prepare for a lot of extra miles and they’d win.
Sage likes to say this but he has never run a 100 mile race well. Despite his marathon time.
In sum, it’s not that elite marathoners couldn’t become elite mountain ultramarathoners because ultramarathoners are so special, it’s that there is a multi year learning curve to do so, particularly with longer races in terms of learning new gear, stride patterns, terrain, nutrition, and overall race management techniques. Factoring all that in, it’s not so simple as taking an Uber from Iten to Steamboat and picking up your $15,000 check. Add in the fact that few races have appearance fees, and the economics aren’t as appealing as they seem at first.
That said, the fact that someone like Courtney Dauwalter, someone with no high level traditional running background, so thoroughly dominates long mountain ultras, hints that there is a unique skill set required to succeed at these events. It dovetails with traditional running, but the overlap is only partial.
Around 2004 or so I asked some professional Kenyans before Boston how far their long runs were, how much time they spent running those long runs. Their longest 'time on feet' was never any greater than 2:20. When I joked that I wanted to break 3 hours, they laughed back and said they could never run for that length of time. It would hurt them too much to be on their feet for that long. Now I'm sure that they could train for it, but it would be a noticeable difference for East Africans to get ready for a 100 miler/run for that much time on their feet compared to what they've been used to for the last 35 years.
Around 2004 or so I asked some professional Kenyans before Boston how far their long runs were, how much time they spent running those long runs. Their longest 'time on feet' was never any greater than 2:20. When I joked that I wanted to break 3 hours, they laughed back and said they could never run for that length of time. It would hurt them too much to be on their feet for that long. Now I'm sure that they could train for it, but it would be a noticeable difference for East Africans to get ready for a 100 miler/run for that much time on their feet compared to what they've been used to for the last 35 years.
Something similar happened to me in the early 90ies. I think it was a Tanzanian who won a smaller city marathon and I had the chance to talk to him a day after the race. He could not comprehend that somebody would run a 3:30 Marathon.
Around 2004 or so I asked some professional Kenyans before Boston how far their long runs were, how much time they spent running those long runs. Their longest 'time on feet' was never any greater than 2:20. When I joked that I wanted to break 3 hours, they laughed back and said they could never run for that length of time. It would hurt them too much to be on their feet for that long. Now I'm sure that they could train for it, but it would be a noticeable difference for East Africans to get ready for a 100 miler/run for that much time on their feet compared to what they've been used to for the last 35 years.
Make it a race that pays out like 10 deep with 50k first places and plenty would decide that it is worthwhile.
back in the 80s there was talk about how the marathon was too long for the Kenyans and the like. Then the incentives changed and they dominated.
now the best Kenyan 100miler might be some 2:15 guy who is too slow to run 2 :05 but who can run all day. He might be somewhat hard to discovery. And I also doubt random white boys happen to have some unique technical skills. That is just a matter of getting some training in.
if you look at the dominant ultra runners, they tend to be the subset with superior hm/marathon times.there are exceptions but the trends are clear. If there is an ultra and you can put you money on 10 people who have run sub 225, 10 people who have run sub 2:35 or 10 who have run sub 2:45, everyone is taking the 2:25 group. The correlation is never 100% but it is still very strong.
Make it a race that pays out like 10 deep with 50k first places and plenty would decide that it is worthwhile.
back in the 80s there was talk about how the marathon was too long for the Kenyans and the like. Then the incentives changed and they dominated.
now the best Kenyan 100miler might be some 2:15 guy who is too slow to run 2 :05 but who can run all day. He might be somewhat hard to discovery. And I also doubt random white boys happen to have some unique technical skills. That is just a matter of getting some training in.
if you look at the dominant ultra runners, they tend to be the subset with superior hm/marathon times.there are exceptions but the trends are clear. If there is an ultra and you can put you money on 10 people who have run sub 225, 10 people who have run sub 2:35 or 10 who have run sub 2:45, everyone is taking the 2:25 group. The correlation is never 100% but it is still very strong.
You sound like you have no fundamental understanding what kind of skills are needed for a successful trail ultra. You need a good stomach, know what to eat when, a good strategy for clothing, good knowledge how your body reacts, the ability to make good judgements 15 hours into a race when you feel crappy... and then maybe some running skills. It took Jim Walmsley years to get to this point and yet I think he only won because Kilian Jornet was not there. Kilian would have scared the crap out of him.
I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of letsruns users that could've easily ran 100 miles at 12 minute pace. It might be time to start training for ultras.
Unfortunately for these putative letsrun users, Run Rabbit Run 100 mile race is a a live athletic competition. You have to show up and actually run the race. It does not award prize money to people who "could've easily ran 100 miles at 12 minute pace" unless they actually contest the race.
Make it a race that pays out like 10 deep with 50k first places and plenty would decide that it is worthwhile.
back in the 80s there was talk about how the marathon was too long for the Kenyans and the like. Then the incentives changed and they dominated.
now the best Kenyan 100miler might be some 2:15 guy who is too slow to run 2 :05 but who can run all day. He might be somewhat hard to discovery. And I also doubt random white boys happen to have some unique technical skills. That is just a matter of getting some training in.
if you look at the dominant ultra runners, they tend to be the subset with superior hm/marathon times.there are exceptions but the trends are clear. If there is an ultra and you can put you money on 10 people who have run sub 225, 10 people who have run sub 2:35 or 10 who have run sub 2:45, everyone is taking the 2:25 group. The correlation is never 100% but it is still very strong.
You sound like you have no fundamental understanding what kind of skills are needed for a successful trail ultra. You need a good stomach, know what to eat when, a good strategy for clothing, good knowledge how your body reacts, the ability to make good judgements 15 hours into a race when you feel crappy... and then maybe some running skills. It took Jim Walmsley years to get to this point and yet I think he only won because Kilian Jornet was not there. Kilian would have scared the crap out of him.
And why do you think those are skills that are unique to white runners? Why do you think Kenyan runners can’t learn those same skills? What do you think is unique about Walmart that the average Kenyan doesn’t have?
And if Japan ever decides ultra are cool and companies start paying hundreds of people to train for them, the level of competition will also go next level…
Around 2004 or so I asked some professional Kenyans before Boston how far their long runs were, how much time they spent running those long runs. Their longest 'time on feet' was never any greater than 2:20. When I joked that I wanted to break 3 hours, they laughed back and said they could never run for that length of time. It would hurt them too much to be on their feet for that long. Now I'm sure that they could train for it, but it would be a noticeable difference for East Africans to get ready for a 100 miler/run for that much time on their feet compared to what they've been used to for the last 35 years.
Yup, Des couldn't even run for 3 hours in her 50k world record.
An intellectually honest discussion of how well a sub 2:10 marathoner would do in trail racing would start with a trail race of approximately the same time. If this years Sierra-Zinal (31K/2200 meters elev) is any indication the EA will do quite well: #1&2 Kiriago & Kipngeno. I could go on but I think this speaks volumes.
And in other news, an intellectually honest discussion about the actual topic of this thread - how would a 2:10 marathoner do in high elevation mountain 💯 such as Run Rabbit Run, would recognize it takes significantly longer to finish than a standard road marathon no matter who you are. We could go on but this speaks volumes.
And why do you think those are skills that are unique to white runners? Why do you think Kenyan runners can’t learn those same skills? What do you think is unique about Walmart that the average Kenyan doesn’t have?
And if Japan ever decides ultra are cool and companies start paying hundreds of people to train for them, the level of competition will also go next level…
Kenyans and Ethiopians have a huge genetic advantage when it comes to Marathon running. Some Kenyans could pick up the same skills as the "white guys" but these Kenyans would not be the ones who have run a sub 2:05 Marathon.
Japanese runners are actually top ultrarunners on roads. A Japanese lady (former top marathon runner) holds the world record over 100k.