Every high school kid who has went sub 9

Again, I have the complete & up to date list, but it's on my old hard drive. Obviously it is doint us no good there, I'll try to pull it off this weekend.

Question for Alan S: has anyone on that sub-8:50 list competed seriously as a master other than you and Craig V? And how are things going nowadays? Thanks in advance.

Jim Hill ran 13:27 in college, so i was sorta right, his lifetime pr is 13:19. oh well

Mini me wrote:

When did Alan become "The Shark?" I've always heard he was "Mini-Tabb."

Don't know exactly. I didn't know him personally or anything. I was very young in the 80's and went to a lot of meets, some just to watch. I had a friend who was 20 years older than me who had lived in Boulder and Eugene for a while and knew a lot of the elite runners. One time I mentioned Scharsu (one of my favorites because he was from the midwest - we didn't have Kennedy or Williams at this point - because they were still in high school with me!) and he called him "the Shark."

If he was "Mini-Tabb" he must have been very, very small. Wasn't Ron Tabb like 5'6"/110 # or something?

common cents wrote:

Jim Hill ran 13:27 in college, so i was sorta right, his lifetime pr is 13:19. oh well

Yes, except you were way off in most of your analysis. I don't have time to poke holes in all that you wrote, but just for example Jim Hill was viewed (in 1984) as possibly the best distance runner in America as he had 3:56/13:19/27:56 on his resume. Those times are still unmatched as a group by Americans 20+ years later except by the best ever types like Kennedy, Pre, and well nobody else.

There are definitely several who "could have" run that fast for mile-10k, but they didn't.

>>>

Actually I guess I have time. I always have time to show someone they don't know as much as they think they do.

From the list:

1 8:36.3 Jeff Nelson Burbank CA '79

-already covered - for being the fastest ever, he really didn't have much follow up results

2 8:40.0i Gerry Lindgren Rogers, Spokane, WA '64

- Need I say anything?

3 8:40.9 Craig Virgin Lebanon IL '73

- Depending on how one measures it, the best American ever or at least in the top 5 on anyone's list.

4 8:41.5 Steve Prefontaine Marshfield. Coos Bay, OR '69

- see what I wrote for Virgin and make it top 3.

5 8:43.2i Dave Merrick Lincoln-Way. New Lenox, IL '71

- this guy had a standout career in college despite injuries. If you dug deep you could find a lot of supporting evidence.

6 8:44.0 Eric Reynolds Camarillo CA '83

- don't know much - surprising since he is close to my era.

7 8:44.03 Alan Scharsu Fitch HS, Austintown OH '78

- This has been covered. Top American in NCAA XC, 7:50/13:33/28:20 and a spot on the US WCCC team. He ran well in college and beyond and 28:20 is definitely improving on an 8:44. Scharsu was awesome because he ran sub-8:50 as a junior IN OHIO NO LESS.

8 8:44.12+ Dathan Ritzenhein Rockford (8:41.1-3.2k) MI '00

- This is where your argument fails worst. He won an NCAA title and has 7:50/13:27/27:38 marks already and he still has 8-10 years left!

9 8:44.53+ John Trautmann Mon.-Wood. Cen.Val.(8:05.8-3k)NY

- won the '92 Trials 5k - lots of results in college and beyond.

10 8:44.6 Eric Hulst Laguna Beach CA '76

- Don't know much about the greatest HS runner ever (based purely on four years of PRs). Seems he did very little after HS.

11 8:45.19i Alan Webb Reston VA '01

- 3:32 and 13:10 or whatever he ran last year. 8-10 more years to go.

12 8:45.2 Thom Hunt Henry, San Diego. CA '76

- stud in the Steeple and a 28:12 road 10k AR. Lots of other standout results for many years.

13 8:45.9 Ralph Serna Loara, Anahaim CA '75

- I don't remember a lot of stats, but I believe he was a sub-4:00 miler in the 80's.

14 8:45.92+ Donald Sage Elmhurst York (8:42.89-3.2k) IL '00

- NCAA champ and a major cog in the Stanford Machine - hope he doesn't quit running so young.

15 8:46.44c Chris Solinksy Stevens Point WI '03

- Already sealed his fate as a great college runner and he still has more time. He will be a 3:55/13:10 type before very long.

16 8:46.47+ Eric Mastalir Jesuit Carmichael(8:07.60-3k)CA '86

- Don't know much, maybe he didn't do much at all.

17 8:46.5 Richard Kimball (LaSalle. Concord, CA '74

- This has been covered.

18 8:46.87 Bobby Beck Salmen. Slidell. LA '79

- don't know

19 8:46.99 Brent Steiner Shawnee Mission S. Overland Park, KS '79

20 8:47.02+ Scott Fry Perkins. Sandusky (8:08.1-3k)OH '85

- great runner for Wisconsin for years. 13:37 and 28:47 I believe. I think he ran a 2:17 marathon at about age 35.

21 8:47.77 Jim Hill Oakton, Vienna VA '79

- top HSer, top college runner, top internationalist. Or do you need to run faster than 27:55 for it to mean something to you?

22 8:48.3 Rick Riley Ferris, Spokane WA '66

- Don't know anything about this guy, but Garry Hill swears taht he was as good as Ritz in HS. Not sure if he did much that was earth-shattering in college.

23 8:48.8 Curtis Beck Santa Monica CA '72

- don't know.

24 8:48.8c Brent Vaughn, Brent Smoky Hill CO '03

- Vaughn has had a solid college career and he has a lot more to go.

25 8:49.1i Mark Dani Valhalla, El Cajon CA '86

- couldn't tell you much.

26 8:49.4+ Rickey Pittman East Tech, Cleveland OH '80

- This guy was a great college steepler and good at other events as well. Not sure if he did much after college.

27 8:49.53+ Galen Rupp Central Catholic, Portland,(8:10.42 - 3k) OR '03

- superstar who has already far eclipsed his HS marks.

28 8:49.60i Franklin Sanchez LYNN VOKE TECH HS MA '99

- AJR holder in the 5k, until Galen took it from him.

29 8:49.66+ Mark Mastalir Jesuit, Carmichael (8:10.54-3k)CA '86

- don't know much.

30 8:49.86+ Jon Butler Edison Huntington Beach(8:46.78-3.2k) CA '81

- solid college career, but I don't know specifics.

31 8:49.91+ Eric Logsdon Canby (8:10.66-3k) OR '00

- Believe he was a multi-time AA at Oregon.

So I guess unless you subscribe to the idea that Salazar ran 8:56 in HS and Chris Fox ran about the same and they ran 13:11/27:25 and 13:21/27:59 respectively, so anyone who ran sub-8:50 in HS MUST BE ABLE TO RUN 13:10 and 27:20 or they are considered a failure, then most of these guys ran really well and improved considerably.

Some of them admittedly did not.

Rick RIley: 3:59/13:52 for WSU

darkness wrote:

>>>

13 8:45.9 Ralph Serna Loara, Anahaim CA '75

- I don't remember a lot of stats, but I believe he was a sub-4:00 miler in the 80's.

Serna never ran a sub-4 mile. He did win two Div. II xc titles for UCI as a frosh/soph (also ran a 14:01 in track). And he showed up at Boston in '81 to run a 2:14:16 for 18th place (12th American).

i know two people personally that have gone sub nine. Mr. James (Randy James, science teacher at my school) and Leaf Barnes broke 9 last track season. yea... two spokane runners woo! (that i know)

Sorry i also forgot Gerry Lindgren was a running partner to my XC coach, Len Long.

I think you misunderstood my post. I was in no way arguing that no one other than the guys I listed did anything. I was posing a question asking what any of them did. I'm glad you took the time to analyze everyone's careers, since I'm too young to know much about the older guys except for the virgin, pre, Lindgren type guys without looking it all up. I try not to be that much of a running geek. So I suppose there could have been holes in my argument, had I been making one, but there was no argument made. At no point did I say no one else did anything. Read a little closer next time buddy

darkness wrote:

Yes, except you were way off in most of your analysis. I don't have time to poke holes in all that you wrote, but just for example Jim Hill was viewed (in 1984) as possibly the best distance runner in America as he had 3:56/13:19/27:56 on his resume. Those times are still unmatched as a group by Americans 20+ years later except by the best ever types like Kennedy, Pre, and well nobody else.

Paul Cummings

Tuesday, June 23, 1992

Ex-Running Star Hulst Dies of Brain Cancer at 34;

By: BARBIE LUDOVISE

TIMES STAFF WRITER

NEWPORT BEACH

Eric Hulst, perhaps the best high school distance runner in Orange

County history, died Sunday after a yearlong battle with brain cancer. He

was 34.

Hulst, a track and cross-country standout at Laguna Beach High in the

mid 1970s, experienced a brief remission earlier this year, enabling him

to run up to five miles a day, more than he had run since a knee injury

ended his career more than a decade ago.

But his health declined sharply in recent weeks, his mother, Sharon,

said. Hulst became exhausted one night late last month after a short walk

home from a Bible study. The next morning, he could barely move.

He died at 9:30 Sunday morning with his mother and sister, Heidi, at

his side.

"His passing was very gentle," Sharon Hulst said. "Just as he was."

Certainly, track statisticians might remember Hulst for his impressive

strength and endurance. His best time of 8 minutes 44.6 seconds, clocked

as a senior in 1976, ranks him as the sixth-fastest prep two-miler in

U.S. history. Hulst's tenacity, his rivals said, was what made him

special.

Hulst, they said, didn't run for trophies or headlines, but rather

for the simple pleasure of seeing how far and fast his body could go.

And, even in recent years, he could never understand why other runners,

some he didn't even know, came up to shake his hand.

"He was just pure that way," said Ralph Serna, a top rival of Hulst's

while at Loara High, and later a teammate at UC Irvine. "It wasn't for

the glory or the records. It was just for the love of running.

"If I knew anyone who was into 'Zen and the pure art of running,' it

was Eric. He was less cocky than anyone I met."

Hulst certainly had reason to be proud of his accomplishments. As a

freshman at Laguna Beach, he decided to go out for cross-country to get

in shape for tennis, his first love. But he became a running sensation

almost overnight.

Hulst ran 9:04.4 for the two miles as a freshman, 8:50.6 as a

sophomore and 8:44.9 as a junior--all stand as national class records

today. He won three Southern Section cross-country titles and the world

cross-country championship for juniors (19-and-under) in 1976.

His training sometimes brought him as much notoriety as his racing.

Hulst ran up to 130 miles a week, sometimes while wearing a lead vest or

carrying four-pound hand weights he made from steel pipes filled with

casings of bullets he collected from a nearby shooting range.

"All to combat Ralph Serna's kick," Hulst said with a laugh earlier

this year.

The Hulst-Serna duels often brought crowds to their feet. Serna, who

weighed about 100 pounds, had perfect form and superior speed. Hulst was

a muscular front-runner, able to set a fast pace and stick with it.

"Eric had one gear and it was to the wall," said Doug Speck of Track

& Field News.

Said Serna: "It was especially difficult to run against Eric because

there was no way to psyche him out. . . . At the State meet (in 1975), he

led the entire race. I stayed right behind him. With 300 meters to go, I

tried to pass, but he reacted. I came up on his shoulder, but he held me

off. I tried to pass him on the backstretch, too--he held me off again.

Coming into the homestretch, he had me."

By a margin of 8:44.9 to 8:45.9.

"I think Eric was the most prolific high school runner I ever saw,"

said Len Miller, who coached Hulst in his early years at Laguna Beach and

later at UCI. "If you think about Steve Prefontaine or Jim Ryun, Eric

Hulst as a high school distance runner was as great as any of them."

But in college, a knee injury, along with an increasing disinterest

in academics, led Hulst to drop out after his sophomore year. Years

later, he reflected on the abrupt finish to his career without

bitterness. He developed other interests such as photography and working

with stained glass. He rode his bicycle, sometimes hundreds of miles in

one day.

"Athletes need to understand there are other things," he said.

When doctors told him in the spring of 1991 they would have to

surgically remove a large tumor in his brain, Hulst remained positive.

Months later, after six weeks of radiation therapy, he started daily

physical rehabilitation, and constructed pulleys over the head of his bed

to strengthen his arms and shoulders.

Throughout his remission, Hulst spoke of riding his bike again and

gaining enough mobility in his fingers to play guitar. He started making

plans for a career in photography, and, possibly, a return to competitive

running.

All the while, he seemed to have little trouble making light of his

cancer. He made jokes often, and said he often closed his eyes and

visualized standing just outside his ear. Jesus would be standing at his

side, with a blowtorch in his hand.

"We'd walk into my ear and find the tumor," Hulst said. "I'd say,

'C'mon, Jesus, let's go torch that little sucker."

A memorial service will be held at 4 p.m. Tuesday, June 30 at

Mariners Church in Newport Beach. The service is open to the public and

will feature a short video highlighting Hulst's life and passages from

his training diaries.

Undisputed wrote:

Additional sub-8:50 run since 2003

8:45.44 Shadrack Kiptoo La Cueva, Albuquerque NM '04

8:48.11 Joshua McDougal Peru NY '04

8:48.25 Christo Landry Jefferson Alex VA '04

8:49.87 Andrew Bumbalough Brentwood Acad, TN '04

where is zishka?

I see

Zishka is listed as 8:51, wasn't this a sub 9 thread?

Thats funny, becuase everyone always uses that reason as to why the Keynas or other africans are so good. They run so much when there young and in a great climate

Titan wrote:

Thats funny, becuase everyone always uses that reason as to why the Keynas or other africans are so good. They run so much when there young and in a great climate

Running = Good.

Chasing times, high intensity training, mom & dad or a coach trying to earn a reputation, overcompeting, & treating HS as the end-all achievement = Maybe not so good.

Also remember that far more young Kenyans burn out than go on to world-level success and many who do last a short time at the top.

paul cummings has similar if not better (10k)PRs plus a 2:11.xx marathon and 1:49 880r ... from 70s and 80s

however Paul did not run sub 9:00 in HS, but showed range not often seen:

1500m (3:37.6i/1979)

1 mile (3:56.4/1974)

5000m (13:19.62/1982)

10,000m (27:43.7/1984)

U.S. 15K record (42:42/1983)

Half-Marathon (1:01:32/1983)

Marathon (2:11:32/1986)