Update on 12/30/2025 - This thread was started in 2023. I've updated it to reflect the fact that non-African born men swept all 4 track distance golds at 2025 Worlds.
So after going 0-64, non African born men won the last 2 in 2022, 2 of 4 in 2023 and 4 of 4 in 2025.
This is a rare occasion where Roy is correct. The big road majors are where the money and prestige are at. Nobody gives a sh!t about track.
if you wanna dive a little deeper, you can attribute it to one man, Kipchoge. All of the best runners in Kenya and Ethiopia wanted to follow his footsteps and become a worldwide star athlete.
You and the rest like you do nothing but deflect. The main reasons are obvious. It’s the incremental increase in actual testing, and the improvements in the tests themselves. Period. There is little doubt that some elements within the powers that be are working on some way ($) to convince officials to again constantly look the other way at African/third world cheats, so things are likely to roller-coaster over the next few years. Certain elements see helping third world cheats as a way to put the rest of the world in its place, especially the West. Yes, politics runs deep in the sport. That’s why Russia is ‘out’ while a nation with far more cheats - Kenya - cruises along with no worries.
The Africans are so behind in understanding basic linear programming and basic understanding of nutrition s&c, do you see how many African diaspora are dominating and running records? Belgium, Norway, Spain, Netherlands, Germany, America, Sweden have all had Diaspora run extremely well for these countries let me list a few athletes
Spain Thierry
netherlands has two abdi
sweden has a 2:05 marathon
Belgium has kimelli and Bashir
Germany has abdillahi who just ran 12:53 and petros as well!
norway has a 2:04 guy
canada has a 1:41 guy Arop another 1:44 guy abdulahi and has Mo Ahmed
America just had two African make the world cross team and has had studs in the past like abdi Abdurahman, Meb and Nur was a huge problem before his injury.
if Kenyans and Ethiopian had better resources more intelligent training and weren’t poor they wouldn’t need to quickly dope for a buck.
the average African doesn’t want to run they just want to eat so doping incentives the easy path. Training consistently and meticulously over periods is what actually makes you a good athlete not doping and they don’t have the desire for hard work
Further more the African prefer the road, also a lot of them maybe getting popped falsely due to the influence of piezo1 gene which encodes for greater tendon stiffness but can dramatically change blood values and we all know that the epo test are rubbish and most Kenyan are getting popped for bad blood values as opposed to actually finding EPO in their system
This is a rare occasion where Roy is correct. The big road majors are where the money and prestige are at. Nobody gives a sh!t about track.
if you wanna dive a little deeper, you can attribute it to one man, Kipchoge. All of the best runners in Kenya and Ethiopia wanted to follow his footsteps and become a worldwide star athlete.
You and the rest like you do nothing but deflect. The main reasons are obvious. It’s the incremental increase in actual testing, and the improvements in the tests themselves. Period. There is little doubt that some elements within the powers that be are working on some way ($) to convince officials to again constantly look the other way at African/third world cheats, so things are likely to roller-coaster over the next few years. Certain elements see helping third world cheats as a way to put the rest of the world in its place, especially the West. Yes, politics runs deep in the sport. That’s why Russia is ‘out’ while a nation with far more cheats - Kenya - cruises along with no worries.
Distance runners nerds are such snowflakes. PED’s are a part of professional sports and they always will be. I understand skinny white dudes finally found a sport that they can be good at but ended up butt hurt because skinny Africans are better. Look at the podium of every major Marathon: Kenyans and Ethiopians. You just had an American set the American record yet he was still forth in the race on his home soil. Too bad. That’s life.
You and the rest like you do nothing but deflect. The main reasons are obvious. It’s the incremental increase in actual testing, and the improvements in the tests themselves. Period. There is little doubt that some elements within the powers that be are working on some way ($) to convince officials to again constantly look the other way at African/third world cheats, so things are likely to roller-coaster over the next few years. Certain elements see helping third world cheats as a way to put the rest of the world in its place, especially the West. Yes, politics runs deep in the sport. That’s why Russia is ‘out’ while a nation with far more cheats - Kenya - cruises along with no worries.
The Africans are so behind in understanding basic linear programming and basic understanding of nutrition s&c, do you see how many African diaspora are dominating and running records? Belgium, Norway, Spain, Netherlands, Germany, America, Sweden have all had Diaspora run extremely well for these countries let me list a few athletes
Spain Thierry
netherlands has two abdi
sweden has a 2:05 marathon
Belgium has kimelli and Bashir
Germany has abdillahi who just ran 12:53 and petros as well!
norway has a 2:04 guy
canada has a 1:41 guy Arop another 1:44 guy abdulahi and has Mo Ahmed
America just had two African make the world cross team and has had studs in the past like abdi Abdurahman, Meb and Nur was a huge problem before his injury.
if Kenyans and Ethiopian had better resources more intelligent training and weren’t poor they wouldn’t need to quickly dope for a buck.
the average African doesn’t want to run they just want to eat so doping incentives the easy path. Training consistently and meticulously over periods is what actually makes you a good athlete not doping and they don’t have the desire for hard work
Further more the African prefer the road, also a lot of them maybe getting popped falsely due to the influence of piezo1 gene which encodes for greater tendon stiffness but can dramatically change blood values and we all know that the epo test are rubbish and most Kenyan are getting popped for bad blood values as opposed to actually finding EPO in their system
And what happened to them this year? Barely any of them won in the 1500-10k the reality is the rest of the world has overcome the East African myth and now believe they can win. The Africans are running to the road because the western world is dominating the track. Cole hocker dominated the 5k, Almgren will be the future of the 10k as he recently dropped a sub 59 Half! Nico young and Parker Wolfe are the future, NCAA is stacked with Marco langon and Gary Martin showing that they’re going to dominate, the African are in this for a quick buck and don’t have the heart and discipline
You and the rest like you do nothing but deflect. The main reasons are obvious. It’s the incremental increase in actual testing, and the improvements in the tests themselves. Period. There is little doubt that some elements within the powers that be are working on some way ($) to convince officials to again constantly look the other way at African/third world cheats, so things are likely to roller-coaster over the next few years. Certain elements see helping third world cheats as a way to put the rest of the world in its place, especially the West. Yes, politics runs deep in the sport. That’s why Russia is ‘out’ while a nation with far more cheats - Kenya - cruises along with no worries.
Distance runners nerds are such snowflakes. PED’s are a part of professional sports and they always will be. I understand skinny white dudes finally found a sport that they can be good at but ended up butt hurt because skinny Africans are better. Look at the podium of every major Marathon: Kenyans and Ethiopians. You just had an American set the American record yet he was still forth in the race on his home soil. Too bad. That’s life.
You literally don’t even know wth you’re talking about, how many of these marathons can drop a sub 3:40 1500 whilst in marathon shape, Conner mantz is improving every year and is faster that the Covid WR holder chrptegei who hasn’t done anything in the marathon
It's the shoes . European distance runners have on average been heavier and less capable of a heavier work load which often caused injury ... not now . Also the energy return from the carbon plate is more beneficial the heavier you are . Simple physics really .
Do you have any evidence? Superspikes help everyone the Africans, but it just that the western world has caught up now. We’ve had 3 sub 12:50 from western world this year and the Africans struggled. Last year grant took the bronze and showed what was possible look at the 10k and 5k this year barely any Africans won
You and the rest like you do nothing but deflect. The main reasons are obvious. It’s the incremental increase in actual testing, and the improvements in the tests themselves. Period. There is little doubt that some elements within the powers that be are working on some way ($) to convince officials to again constantly look the other way at African/third world cheats, so things are likely to roller-coaster over the next few years. Certain elements see helping third world cheats as a way to put the rest of the world in its place, especially the West. Yes, politics runs deep in the sport. That’s why Russia is ‘out’ while a nation with far more cheats - Kenya - cruises along with no worries.
Distance runners nerds are such snowflakes. PED’s are a part of professional sports and they always will be. I understand skinny white dudes finally found a sport that they can be good at but ended up butt hurt because skinny Africans are better. Look at the podium of every major Marathon: Kenyans and Ethiopians. You just had an American set the American record yet he was still forth in the race on his home soil. Too bad. That’s life.
I brought this topic up last Friday on our SC podcast and will do so again today in our regular year in podcast. It's certainly one of the bigger themes in the sport. What explains the crazy change?|
Is it there are so many Westerners now doing altitude training? Westerns are better responders to super shoes? We need something that makes sense.
I've also updated the thread title with the new stats.
After going 0-64, non African born men won the last 2 distance golds on the track at Worlds in 2022, 2 of 4 in 2023 and 4 of 4 in 2025.
And what happened to them this year? Barely any of them won in the 1500-10k the reality is the rest of the world has overcome the East African myth and now believe they can win. The Africans are running to the road because the western world is dominating the track. Cole hocker dominated the 5k, Almgren will be the future of the 10k as he recently dropped a sub 59 Half! Nico young and Parker Wolfe are the future, NCAA is stacked with Marco langon and Gary Martin showing that they’re going to dominate, the African are in this for a quick buck and don’t have the heart and discipline
I think you have cause and effect backwards. The western world is dominating in track (to the extent that they are) because the Africans ran to the road.
The East Africans went to the road long ago, around 2010 timeframe. This paved the way for Slo Mo to dominate the 5K and 10K, as the younger East Africans bypassed the track and started dropping marathon, half-marathon, and 10K road records.
Westerners are running faster because of superspikes, and they are winning because it is no longer cost effective for the fastest East Africans to go to the track.
And what happened to them this year? Barely any of them won in the 1500-10k the reality is the rest of the world has overcome the East African myth and now believe they can win. The Africans are running to the road because the western world is dominating the track. Cole hocker dominated the 5k, Almgren will be the future of the 10k as he recently dropped a sub 59 Half! Nico young and Parker Wolfe are the future, NCAA is stacked with Marco langon and Gary Martin showing that they’re going to dominate, the African are in this for a quick buck and don’t have the heart and discipline
I think you have cause and effect backwards. The western world is dominating in track (to the extent that they are) because the Africans ran to the road.
The East Africans went to the road long ago, around 2010 timeframe. This paved the way for Slo Mo to dominate the 5K and 10K, as the younger East Africans bypassed the track and started dropping marathon, half-marathon, and 10K road records.
Westerners are running faster because of superspikes, and they are winning because it is no longer cost effective for the fastest East Africans to go to the track.
Pretty sure the most talented East African are on the track…. They’re just getting outbeat by westerners because now we are looking for westerners that can actually compete with EA. I’ll admit that the African seem to have an advantage on the roads but this has definitely been evened out on the track. When was the last time you have seen a sub 13 race close In a 52? That put hocker in Mo territory who was definitely not slow and had some competitive 10k and 5k races in rio at fast times
I think you have cause and effect backwards. The western world is dominating in track (to the extent that they are) because the Africans ran to the road.
The East Africans went to the road long ago, around 2010 timeframe. This paved the way for Slo Mo to dominate the 5K and 10K, as the younger East Africans bypassed the track and started dropping marathon, half-marathon, and 10K road records.
Westerners are running faster because of superspikes, and they are winning because it is no longer cost effective for the fastest East Africans to go to the track.
Yes, to the roads around 2010 or whereabouts maybe. The only thing that changed more recently for one group (esp. Kenya and Ethiopia) but not the other is the huge increase in PED testing, slowing beginning with the AIU in 2017, and then drastically increasing after Covid. See for example here in 2023:
Most Africans are 100% dependent on prize money. No sponsorship or government funding. It has become impossible to earn a living running 3000m steeplechase, 5000m or 10,000m. So most Africans have migrated to the roads.
In 2025, all the 19 of the 20 best times in the half marathon were by East Africans.
All the top 25 marathon times were by East Africans.
For most East African men, It doesn't make sense to bother training for the 5000m or 10,000m or steeplechase anymore when these events have been reduced drastically or eliminated from the Diamond League.
Most Africans are 100% dependent on prize money. No sponsorship or government funding. It has become impossible to earn a living running 3000m steeplechase, 5000m or 10,000m. So most Africans have migrated to the roads.
In 2025, all the 19 of the 20 best times in the half marathon were by East Africans.
All the top 25 marathon times were by East Africans.
For most East African men, It doesn't make sense to bother training for the 5000m or 10,000m or steeplechase anymore when these events have been reduced drastically or eliminated from the Diamond League.
As I said, it’s not a real pro sport. Look at what the best of the best make.
AI Overview +9 The Diamond League's prize money increased significantly for the 2025 season, with a total of $9.24 million awarded across 15 meetings, including gender-equal payouts for all 32 disciplines, plus promotional fees, reaching $18 million in total athlete payments. For Diamond+ events, winners earn $20,000 at series meets and $50,000 at the Final, while standard Diamond events pay winners $10,000 and $30,000, respectively, with increased payouts for lower finishers and new payments for 9th-12th place.
I think you have cause and effect backwards. The western world is dominating in track (to the extent that they are) because the Africans ran to the road.
The East Africans went to the road long ago, around 2010 timeframe. This paved the way for Slo Mo to dominate the 5K and 10K, as the younger East Africans bypassed the track and started dropping marathon, half-marathon, and 10K road records.
Westerners are running faster because of superspikes, and they are winning because it is no longer cost effective for the fastest East Africans to go to the track.
Yes, to the roads around 2010 or whereabouts maybe. The only thing that changed more recently for one group (esp. Kenya and Ethiopia) but not the other is the huge increase in PED testing, slowing beginning with the AIU in 2017, and then drastically increasing after Covid. See for example here in 2023:
In 2025, all the 19 of the 20 best times in the half marathon were by East Africans.
All the top 25 marathon times were by East Africans.
Interesting point, but why did you look at top 20 in one case, and top 25 in the other? Also you need a comparison to earlier times to show a trend. Remember the change observed in this thread started in 2022.
Plus you have overlooked two non-African times - it's 18 of the best 20 times in the half and 19 of the top 25 in the marathon.
HM and M top times, non African born 2010: 0 of 25 (best place 111) — 0 of 25 (place 64) 2015: 1 of 25 (best place 19) — 0 of 25 (place 48) 2020: 0 of 25 (best place 32) — 1 of 25 (place 14) 2025: 3 of 25 (best place 9 (and 19)) — 1 of 25 (place 25)
So I do not see a clear trend by that metric since 2010; if anything, non-Africans started to close the gap on the road.
The Africans are so behind in understanding basic linear programming and basic understanding of nutrition s&c, do you see how many African diaspora are dominating and running records? Belgium, Norway, Spain, Netherlands, Germany, America, Sweden have all had Diaspora run extremely well for these countries let me list a few athletes
Spain Thierry
netherlands has two abdi
sweden has a 2:05 marathon
Belgium has kimelli and Bashir
Germany has abdillahi who just ran 12:53 and petros as well!
norway has a 2:04 guy
canada has a 1:41 guy Arop another 1:44 guy abdulahi and has Mo Ahmed
America just had two African make the world cross team and has had studs in the past like abdi Abdurahman, Meb and Nur was a huge problem before his injury.
if Kenyans and Ethiopian had better resources more intelligent training and weren’t poor they wouldn’t need to quickly dope for a buck.
the average African doesn’t want to run they just want to eat so doping incentives the easy path. Training consistently and meticulously over periods is what actually makes you a good athlete not doping and they don’t have the desire for hard work
Further more the African prefer the road, also a lot of them maybe getting popped falsely due to the influence of piezo1 gene which encodes for greater tendon stiffness but can dramatically change blood values and we all know that the epo test are rubbish and most Kenyan are getting popped for bad blood values as opposed to actually finding EPO in their system
This is a rare occasion where Roy is correct. The big road majors are where the money and prestige are at. Nobody gives a sh!t about track.
if you wanna dive a little deeper, you can attribute it to one man, Kipchoge. All of the best runners in Kenya and Ethiopia wanted to follow his footsteps and become a worldwide star athlete.
You and the rest like you do nothing but deflect. The main reasons are obvious. It’s the incremental increase in actual testing, and the improvements in the tests themselves. Period. There is little doubt that some elements within the powers that be are working on some way ($) to convince officials to again constantly look the other way at African/third world cheats, so things are likely to roller-coaster over the next few years. Certain elements see helping third world cheats as a way to put the rest of the world in its place, especially the West. Yes, politics runs deep in the sport. That’s why Russia is ‘out’ while a nation with far more cheats - Kenya - cruises along with no worries.
Nailed it. And the butt-hurt African Worshipping “I hate the West” crowd is highly agitated, as everyone can see.
Yes, to the roads around 2010 or whereabouts maybe. The only thing that changed more recently for one group (esp. Kenya and Ethiopia) but not the other is the huge increase in PED testing, slowing beginning with the AIU in 2017, and then drastically increasing after Covid. See for example here in 2023:
Very very hard to ignore the connection there, especially with the catching of three WR holders in 2025.
It's rather misleading to use the term PED. In one case, the WR holder was busted for a diuretic, not generally considered a PED. In another case, the former WR holder was provisionally suspended for evasion, again, not a PED. I couldn't find the third WR holder you referred to. Furthermore, these were road WR holders, not track WR holders.
I see testing also indirectly keeping clean athletes from the track, that haven't met the Category A requirements for eligibility to compete.
Yes, to the roads around 2010 or whereabouts maybe. The only thing that changed more recently for one group (esp. Kenya and Ethiopia) but not the other is the huge increase in PED testing, slowing beginning with the AIU in 2017, and then drastically increasing after Covid. See for example here in 2023:
Very very hard to ignore the connection there, especially with the catching of three WR holders in 2025.
But Europeans and North Americans dope just as much as Kenyans, perhaps even more since they are more sophisticated dopers.
However East African dominance is no good for the sport so Kenyans must be tested more thoroughly
Oy vey…Excuses, excuses. NO ONE dopes as much as E Africans, who were basically allowed to dope with impunity (and they are well aware of it) for decades.
It's rather misleading to use the term PED. In one case, the WR holder was busted for a diuretic, not generally considered a PED. In another case, the former WR holder was provisionally suspended for evasion, again, not a PED. I couldn't find the third WR holder you referred to. Furthermore, these were road WR holders, not track WR holders.
I see testing also indirectly keeping clean athletes from the track, that haven't met the Category A requirements for eligibility to compete.
Misleading deflection. To be picky, no one said these WR holders were caught with PEDs. To use logic, athletes dodge tests and use masking agents to hide their doping. Either way, you have no leg to stand on.
It's rather misleading to use the term PED. In one case, the WR holder was busted for a diuretic, not generally considered a PED. In another case, the former WR holder was provisionally suspended for evasion, again, not a PED. I couldn't find the third WR holder you referred to. Furthermore, these were road WR holders, not track WR holders.
I see testing also indirectly keeping clean athletes from the track, that haven't met the Category A requirements for eligibility to compete.
Misleading deflection. To be picky, no one said these WR holders were caught with PEDs. To use logic, athletes dodge tests and use masking agents to hide their doping. Either way, you have no leg to stand on.
Exactly. The “diuretic” is a known masking agent and was also at extremely high - well beyond therapeutic - levels. But ol’ rek has never been one to let actual facts get in the way of his being an apologist who provides astoundingly silly levels of deflection and rationalization.
