What if Jim Ryun had raced in this era?

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2 years ago 07/14/2023 8:01am EDT

re: 600yd/600m man

600yd/600m man wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
Just stop digging in. You are wrong. You started off as an over the top J Ryun fanboy, now you are making false statements. Amphetamines were available with little to no testing. Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago. Buckets of amphetamines in locker rooms.

The only thing amphetamines would have done is help Ryun have a heart attack. Let's raise a resting heart rate by 30 BPM and then let's see, oh yeah, go try to run a world record 1500 meter/mile. Roll a casket out on the track.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 8:30am EDT

re: LRC2000

If he was so good why doesn't he have a gold lmao

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:10am EDT

re: Les

Les wrote:
Also, when Ryun was 18 he beat the reigning Olympic champion and world mile record holder Peter Snell. Jakob was good at 18, but not as good as Ryun.

Jakob did beat the reigning Olympic champion in the 1500m and the silver medalist in the 5000m easily as a 17 years old in a 1500m, and would have been sub 3.30 as a 18 years old if he hadn’t eased over the finish line… But not saying he’s better than Ryun (or vice versa)…

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:15am EDT

re: Lt Col Obvious

How many guys have you ever seen run a completely solo 3:51 mile? If you've seen any, how many have you seen run the last 440 in 53? With pacers, wavelight, today's shoes and tracks, I have no doubt Ryun would be the fastest in the world right now.

Another thing to consider is track and field was controlled by the AAU back then. If you wanted to run in the Olympics you had to adhere to strict amateur rules. Ryun could not get paid to compete like the professionals today which is one reason his career wss not long.

Ryun would have won the 68 Olympics if it were not at high altitude and Beamon wouldn't have jumped as far.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:18am EDT

re: Lt Col Obvious

Lt Col Obvious wrote:
If he was so good why doesn't he have a gold lmao

Do you think Bernard Lagat was a bad runner (no Olympic golds) or Wilson Kipketer (no Olympic golds)…?

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:22am EDT

re: Coevett

Coevett wrote:
Steffe wrote:
Floyd Patterson has admitted that he used steroids to put on muscles before the second title fight against Johansson in 1960.
Bit of a difference between a high school track athlete in the 1960's and a guy fighting to reclaim the most lucrative title in professional sport.
But it's fitting you bring up boxing. In boxing forums you don't have these discussions. Well you do, but it's a given by everybody that the top guys from the 60's and even the 20's would compete with or even dominate the guys of today.
Whereas here, it's a joke to consider that Zatopek or Nurmi could compete today. As Ryun's generation fades from history, it will happen to him too. Then Walker, Ovett, Coe, Cram, Aouita...

My point is that peds have been around longer than most posters here seem to know. Many people believe that Kuts was using steroids in the 1950s.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:25am EDT

re: Oldie but goodie

GOAT - don’t overthink this.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:29am EDT

re: Ryun is the GOAT

Ryun is the GOAT wrote:
round and round wrote:
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception?
Ryun would be the exception because he broke world records as a teenager! He was, by definition, exceptional.
Consider not only the advances in shoes and tracks. Consider the advances in training knowledge and professionalism of the sport. Ryun set his best 1500 and mile times at age 20. If he ran today with the type of professional supports and resources that are available, he very likely would have continued improving for another 5 years.

Agreed! And more than likely, due to today's advances in training, Ryun's talent would've been nurtured and brought along at a more gradual pace. Even today's top high school programs, that have been described by many as training like collegiate athletes or pros, are like jogging programs compared to the amount and quality of work performed by Ryun as a teenager.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:37am EDT

re: 600yd/600m man

600yd/600m man wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
Drugs were in their infancy in the mid-sixties and not known to be then present in distance running. You are failing to see that doping has developed alongside the sport in the last fifty years to the extent they have become indistinguishable. That wasn't so in Ryun's era.
Just stop digging in. You are wrong. You started off as an over the top J Ryun fanboy, now you are making false statements. Amphetamines were available with little to no testing. Amphetamines were widely used openly by many pro athletes in numerous sports to 35 or 40 years ago. Buckets of amphetamines in locker rooms.

Wrong era. I am talking about the early and mid-sixties, which I remember well. Ryun was a mid-sixties athlete, and not competing "35 or 40 years ago", which was two decades later, in the mid to late eighties, when doping had fully invaded sport. In the early sixties drugs were mostly being used in strength-related sports, like weightlifting and field events, because there were relatively few doping options and their effects or "benefits" were then not well known. Outside the Eastern Bloc it was amateur stuff. Now it is fully professional.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:42am EDT

re: round and round

round and round wrote:
Oldie but goodie wrote:
My goodness the man was more talented than Jakob. Would Ryun run 3:25 with the tracks and shoes?
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception? If you think Ryun is more talented than jakob, do you think Alan Webb is more talented than Jakob Ingebrigsten? He might be physically, but that's not all is takes to be the best.
Kip Keino broke the 3,000m WR by 6 seconds and broke the 5,000m WR as well. He beat Ryun by 20 meters in the 1968 Oly final...biggest winning margin ever.
Are people arguing Keino would be better than Bekele and Cheptegei?! Or the 3,000m WR holder? I doubt it.
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
Ryun ran 3:51. Obviously, that'd be faster on modern tracks and with better shoes. So, safe to say he'd have been under 3:50 for the mile. I don't find it difficult to make an argument that would have happened. Today, running 3:50/51 is fairly common. Even Galen Rupp did it. There are guys running 3:49 who aren't sniffing 3:25 in the 1500m. Even if Ryun ran 3:47-48, I don't think he's faster than the everyone else. Webb wasn't and he ran 3:46 and 1:43 in the same month.
El G was the best and most consistent 1500m runner ever, and no one really comes close.

Ryun thrashed Keino by well over over 4 seconds when set his 1500 wr at the Coliseum Relays in '67. It was all done over the last 250m. Fantastic kick.

Mexico was an aberration that clearly favoured altitude athletes like Keino. It's a poor comparison of their talents.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:46am EDT

re: MohammedA

MohammedA wrote:
18rabbitskiing wrote:
Ryun competed over 55 years ago.i
And as I and other have demonstrated, they were widely used 55 and more years ago.

They weren't.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 9:52am EDT

re: Same as it ever was

Same as it ever was wrote:
600yd/600m man wrote:
Have you been driving from library to library giving yourself up arrows?
You should know amphetamine use was widespread during Ryun era. Are you an English professor or attorney? Amphetamines were widely available in pro locker rooms UP TO 35 to 40 years ago.
Yep, below is the link to a well-known SI article that came out in 1960 entitled "Our Drug Happy Athletes". Here is one interesting excerpt from the article:
"In terms of records, these figures indicate that amphetamines could take 3.6 seconds off the time of a four-minute miler."
Again, this was an article from 1960. For those you claim there was no drug use in that era please state your age and when you competed. If you didn't actually compete in the 1960s you have no real basis for making a claim about the use of drugs.
Link:vault.si.com/vault/1960/11/21/our-drug...

I competed in the sixties. I knew that drugs were being used in field events but there was no talk of using them then in distance running because there were no drugs in that era that specifically targeted those events. What might work for shot-put doesn't help distance runners. It was also an amateur era. The ideals of sportsmanship hadn't been coloured by the professional's need to succeed at all costs.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 10:01am EDT

re: peterpan

peterpan wrote:
He ran 3:33 and won silver at an Olympics. Obviously very good accomplishments, but to say he'd be running world records today is a disservice to all the sub 3:30 runners and Olympic gold medalists since then.

Did you ever see Ryun run in person?

2 years ago 07/14/2023 10:12am EDT

re: Oldie but goodie

Let's make it really interesting ana throw Herb Elliott into the mix.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 10:23am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Ryun thrashed Keino by well over over 4 seconds when set his 1500 wr at the Coliseum Relays in '67. It was all done over the last 250m. Fantastic kick.
Mexico was an aberration that clearly favoured altitude athletes like Keino. It's a poor comparison of their talents.

And Keino beat Ryun........ONCE.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 10:24am EDT

re: Oldie but goodie

Jim Run is like 80 years old. If he raced today he wouldn't do so well

2 years ago 07/14/2023 11:01am EDT

re: Oldie but goodie

Ryun trained too hard, too much as a young man and burned out. The assumptions and beliefs of his era likely contributed to this. Who knows what the arc of his career would be today? His coaching?

World records if he was running today? I'd reckon he had more raw speed than Jakob. Who knows.

All that being said, he was beyond amazing. I'm 10 years younger than Jim, of course he was my hero. Even more than Pre, who was THE MAN when I was in high school.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 11:04am EDT

re: One dance at 7500'

...Ryun vs. Keino. I think Kip was better than Jim in '68 and would have won the Olympic 1500 at sea level.

But, Ryun '66-'67 was MUCH better than Keino in '68, I mean c'mon! BAM.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 11:29am EDT

re: Big Red

Ryun's legendary kick would compete with anyone of any era. If he's within striking distance against today's best with 300 to go, its game over. No contest. The only other miler with close to as good of a devastating kick was Noredine Morcelli.

2 years ago 07/14/2023 11:33am EDT

re: justanothercuriousdude

justanothercuriousdude wrote:
round and round wrote:
I know there will never be an answer and there is a group of Letsrun posters who see Ryun as immortal, but I don't think he'd be the best ever. He peaked early and was a true physical freak talent. He "looked" stronger and more fit than most other 1500m runners. When I first saw Alan Webb he reminded me of images I'd seen of Ryun.
Alan Webb, to me, was the late 1990's / early 2000's version of Jim Ryun. Freak talent. Muscular. Super good leg speed. Hard worker. Webb ran 3:30 and 3:46 (mile) and 1:43, all in a month span and never found that again. You could easily argue he peaked early as well. He was very much like Ryun and so, maybe Ryun could have been as fast +/- as Webb was.
There are no white boy USA runners who have ever run faster than 3:30. Why would Ryun suddenly be the exception? If you think Ryun is more talented than jakob, do you think Alan Webb is more talented than Jakob Ingebrigsten? He might be physically, but that's not all is takes to be the best.
Kip Keino broke the 3,000m WR by 6 seconds and broke the 5,000m WR as well. He beat Ryun by 20 meters in the 1968 Oly final...biggest winning margin ever.
Are people arguing Keino would be better than Bekele and Cheptegei?! Or the 3,000m WR holder? I doubt it.
Another thing hard to quantify is that Ryun didn't think anyone could run as fast as Keino did in Mexico City to win the gold medal. He thought a slower time would win. Perhaps this was a mental limitation that prevented him from setting higher goals.
Ryun ran 3:51. Obviously, that'd be faster on modern tracks and with better shoes. So, safe to say he'd have been under 3:50 for the mile. I don't find it difficult to make an argument that would have happened. Today, running 3:50/51 is fairly common. Even Galen Rupp did it. There are guys running 3:49 who aren't sniffing 3:25 in the 1500m. Even if Ryun ran 3:47-48, I don't think he's faster than the everyone else. Webb wasn't and he ran 3:46 and 1:43 in the same month.
El G was the best and most consistent 1500m runner ever, and no one really comes close.
I like your reasoning in this post.. But in the Mexico ex. about Ryun vs Keino I think you are a little unfair to the former, because the altitude was a clear disadvantage to Ryun (and a lot of others)…

Ryun was at a disadvantage to Keino in Mexico not only because of the altitude but because he was not the Jim Ryun of 1966-67. He came down with mono in either December of '67 or January of '68. It hung on for months and kept him from racing. In 1968 there were supposedly two Olympic Trials, one in Los Angeles in June and another in September at Lake Tahoe to match the altitude people would encounter in Mexico City. The deal was SUPPOSED to be that the winner in LA made the team and only needed to "demonstrate fitness" at Tahoe. (Ask Dave Patrick and Bill Clark how that worked out.) Ryun was still so sick in late June that he didn't even run in the LA trial. There was speculation that he might not be healthy enough to run in the Tahoe Trial and that even if he did he might not be sufficiently recovered and fit to qualify. He simply was not the Jim Ryun of the previous two years.

That he not only qualified but managed a silver medal a month later in a race whose setting clearly favored his main rival and where a countryman of that rival sacrificed his own race to maximize Keino's chance of winning was a tremendous accomplishment. That's not to take anything away from Keino whose time that day at that altitude was fantastic. But Ryun's race was too under those circumstances and it's a shame that so many people have considered that race a failure.

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