double threshold is the most overrated thing in running

A key point here is that, in Norwegian framework, there is no such thing as "threshold pace." It's a physiological state, not a particular pace. As someone noted above, when Ingebrigtsen is doing 25x400, his pace is typically 63-64 seconds. But when he's doing 2000m threshold intervals, his pace is much slower. The common thread in both cases is that he's running at a pace that keeps his lactate levels within a certain tight range.

Can you approximate that by starting with an estimate of threshold pace, then titrating up or down depending on the length of intervals you're doing, the duration of rest, and how you're feeling? I dunno. Maybe. I suspect you'd do better with an initial run-in period to get a feel for how the various types of workouts are supposed to feel.

As for the OP's question about whether double thresholds are overrated... I guess it depends on how you rate them! The discussion would be more productive with a specific claim/resolution to debate.

False. It's right in the name Lactate Threshold Pace. Now if they said Threshold Pace is always 5 min pace or something to that, then that would be wrong.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. The post I was responding to mentioned a bunch of ways of estimating threshold pace: "5k pace +30sec, 10k + x, or 15k pace or 1/2 marathon pace." These are all intended to get you close to threshold during long sustained efforts.

My point was that, if you're trying to emulate Ingebrigtsen-style training with threshold intervals, those formulas don't apply, because the pace that elicits threshold depends on the details of the workout (i.e. interval length and recovery). So there's no single formula that can tell you what "threshold pace" is in this context, because you'll have a different threshold pace for every workout.

Agreed. You could just do 4 threshold sessions in singles but the scheduling and recovery won't be as precise

If you just use time, it ends all the silliness and confusion(Tempo, Threshold, Critical Velocity, 5K, 10K etc.).

In this case, it’s your 1 hour max pace. So. obviously it’s gonna be slower than your 15 or 30 min max pace, and as a result you’ll be able to do more volume.

The theory is that the added volume will be a greater benefit than your faster but lower volume workout.

It’s no different than believing 3 sets of 20 reps is better than 3 sets of 10 with a heavier weight.

From what I’ve seen, it’s splitting hairs.

Why?

And you are?

The easiest way it has been described (and why it is used for doubling) is that you have your LT1 and LT2 zones.

LT1 is your aerobic threshold

LT2 is youe anaerobic threshold

While there is benefit to doing work at the pace between the two, it's a bit harder to recover from. As a result, someone like Jakob would do a workout at LT1 (8-10x1K) which are slow enough to still allow for recovery before a more intense LT2 session (20x400). LT1 sessions tend to be longer reps and LT2 tends to be shorter unless you're doing a peak workout. For Jakob and those like him, LT2 is kept in check by that upper bound around 4mmol or so.

All the other terms thrown around like CV pace, tempo pace etc. either fall within or around those 2 zones. The key here is that by doing a workout in each zone, you can recover and still do 2 workouts per day as opposed to 1 faster workout. It's obviously important to go faster or slower than these zones on occasion, but the bread and butter of training is all about getting quality sessions consistently while being able to recover. Double threshold done right allows for that.

As has been mentioned multiple times at this point, in the double threshold system used by Marius Bakken and later Gjert Ingebrigtsen, threshold pace represents a range of paces depending on the length of the repetition and recovery interval. One hour race pace might be one of several “threshold” paces used, perhaps for 3-4 minute repetitions. 1 minute repetitions are faster, and 6 minute repetitions are slower. All of these are “threshold” paces under the Norwegian double threshold system.

The idea that one hour race pace is the only “threshold pace” has proliferated as a result of people completely misunderstanding and misrepresenting Jack Daniels’ work.

Pardon me. I only read the first page of this thread.

Marius Bakken didn't start out by doing double threshold. He has written extensively about this on his website. For years, he did single, sub threshold, interval sessions at very high volumes (10-15k), 4-5 times per week. He only changed to double threshold when he felt like the singe threshold sessions were not giving him enough stimulus, so he went to more of a "hard/easy" system with 2 days of double threshold, with high volumes of easy recovery running and a little speed sprinkled in. This is the system the Gjert later adopted for his kids

The real innovation was that they used portable lactate testing (pretty radical in the late 90s) to make sure the intensity stayed low enough where the stimulus could be repeated day after day.

This is just it.

Most of the people suddenly d-riding for double-thresholds (that's double-riding, btw) weren't even running fast every day.

They are skipping straight from a hyperpolarized HARD day / EASY day program to double threshold work. FFS start with daily threshold work.

Apparently, this is why Chinese weightlifters take EPO, even though their sport is anaerobic. The increased recovery allows them to get in an extra session or two,

Agree. My point is that there is a “pace”, but I agree it’s different depending on what you are doing, which is the challenge. I guess I kind of took you out of context.

And that high volume comes partly from double tresholds, and the consistency from not getting hurt due to staying at threshold intensity. Threshold training means higher volume and less hero workouts with high intensity and high risk of injury.

No one needs to be reminded of this, yet here you are, in every thread, reminding people about this.

Sometimes I wonder if you are sponsored by Big Doping. Yes we know drugs works wonders, you don’t have to force it in to every thread.

No one ignores the elephant in the room. In fact everyone has seen, greeted and discussed the elephant in the room so much that we are kind of bored of it. Now we want to discuss the zebra in the hallway, the giraffe outside the window.

As I sometimes say to a small person that shares my genes: I understand that you want to talk about something else, but now we are talking so you either have to join us or wait for your turn.

Precisely! And then Woldemar Gerschler greatly added to the understanding of intensity modulation by monitoring Heart Rate. I contend, to this day, a Heart Rate monitor/strap is sufficient for 95% of serious athletes and hobbyists, in lieu of unnecessary lactate monitoring.

Alphaflies