Was Noureddine Morceli the first African to use EPO in August 1992?

+1

But I'd add that the recent history provides quite strong evidence that most if not all of the 1:41s and 3:28s of the dirty past were heavily doped (roids/transfusions/Epo): no one has run faster than that since 2012 (800) and 2015 (1500, when the doping tests got more serious in Kenya), despite advances in training and super shoes and Monaco's and Tokyo's fast tracks. Clearly the ABP limits the most egregious hard-core blood doping.

Bonus points: the last person to go under 3:28 was.... drug cheat Kiprop, lol. The last person to run 1:41 was... drug cheat Amos, LOL.

Go from nothing? You mean get pipped by Peter Elliott at the trials, silver medalist in 88 on one leg?

No it wasnt. The drop from 3:37.87 to 3.32.6 was a heck of a lot bigger. The drop from 3:28.86 to 3:27.5 is also a lot more significant. A 2.14s improvement isn't noticeablely different than a 1.6 one.

But if you want to say every 22 year old who drops 2s started doping, go for it. But it is going to be a long list with guys like cram (3:33 to 3:31), ovett(337 to 3'34), Allen Webb ( 332.5 to 3:30.5), Centro( 3.34.4 to 3:31.96), cooper teare (3:43 to 3:36), wheating (3:38 to 3:31) and so on. Most people run faster at 22 than 21.... And most people need to keep on improving off there 21 year old times if they are going to be world class.

Maybe they all start taking drugs at 21. But that seems unlikely...

We are talking about md and distance running. Nothing since the 80's and perhaps even the 70's can be assumed clean, even though doping was less prevalent then outside the E Bloc.

Some posters have understated how dominant Morceli was in 1991 as a 21 year old. Coevett’s claim that Peter Elliott would have been the Olympic favorite in ‘92 if he hadn’t been injured is especially ridiculous. In ‘91 Morceli went 19-0 in finals ranging from 800 to 3k, indoors and out (he won all his heats and semis for good measure). He clocked 3:31.00/3:31.00/3:31.01, which would be one thing if he was placing 5th, but doing it while sweeping the European circuit is something else entirely. The fact that those times are remarkably uniform is not proof that 3:31.00 was his limit at the time. Nobody could split 51.5 in a 3:32.5 race without sub-3:30 ability.

All that at age 21… It shouldn’t be surprising that he ran 3:28.86 once he got healthy at age 22, considering he was likely capable of that at age 21. If we applied the same circumstances to someone whose times are a little more conceivable (say a 21 year old running 3:35s with big kicks who then struggles some the next season before eventually breaking through to 3:33 flat to close the year) we would consider that “getting back on track.”

I don’t think the 3:28.86 PR is compelling evidence that he started doping after the ‘92 games, whatsoever. Not at all. Of course I can’t rule out the possibility, but I think it’s more likely that he was doping throughout all of ‘91 as well.

So Willis and Walker were dopers?

When you consider that no one had touched 1:41 since Cruz, Kipketer's 1:41 was surprising in an athlete beaten soundly in the Olympics. His long series of 1:41s was unprecedented until Rudisha. As for the 5000m, those 12:55s and 12:56s came all of a sudden and together, as if 1995 was the first mass use of EPO, and prior to that the only guys to run 13 flat or sub were already legends. Komen and Geb were two of those guys who soon after dropped the 5000m wr down another 16 seconds.

The guys you listed improved their pbs over the corse of the season. Morceli is 'struggling for fitness' and finishes 7th in the Olympics, then runs 3:30.7 at Zurich when it was the Monaco of its day, then loses a mile race by over a second, disappears for 2 weeks and then runs a 3:28 WR in his last race of the season. 1/2 second faster than Aouita, and 11 seconds faster than his older brother and coach. And all in the year that EPO is starting to become used by elites. Do you see the difference between that and, for example, Cram in 83?

Morceli was dominant in 91 because Elliott got injured (and in 90).

What Elliott did in early 1990 would have been sensational in the epo era or today in the super shoe era. Based on his 1:42 and his Commonwealth Games, and what he was doing in training, he and his coach fully expected to run 3:27 that summer. Alas he got injured. He was returning to form in early 91 but then had problems again and missed Tokyo. Morceli dodged Elliott at the Bislett Games in 91.

Kipketer was never "beaten soundly" in an Olympics. In 1995 he was World Champion, the unquestioned #1, and ran 1:42.87 twice. He was certainly no shock to run in the 1:41s after that sort of season. Due to his change in nationality, he didn't get to compete at the 1996 Olympics but went 14-0 outdoors in the 800 but went to an even higher level in '96-97 with the 1:41s. The gold medalist in '96 Rodal ran 1:42.58, which was a great performance but he was 0-5 that year vs. Kipketer with only one close finish. As for stacking together fast 800s/1000s yes Coe never did it, but in 1984 Cruz in one month had 1:43.00 Olympics Gold, 3 sub 1:42.5 performances (all in a 7-day span), and 2 sub 2:14.6 1000m performances. So, if you're asking me if there was a blueprint to stack together very fast 800s in a short span, there was.

Your use of "legends" is a bit arbitrary when you consider Dave Moorcroft ran 13:00.41. Excellent runner, and maybe an Alan Webb type career. To think 13 years later, someone running 4-5 seconds faster would have to be drugs feels like a stretch.

In Tokyo Morceli finished a 3:32.85 in 51.55. He clearly was in sub 3:30 shape then. His best in 91 was better than his best in 92.

This just seems like a dramatic rendition. Here is the actual calendar of events:

Aug 8: 7th Olympics
Aug 11: 1st Monaco 3:32.75
Aug 19: 1st Zurich 3:30.75 PB
Aug 21: 2nd Berlin 3:49.79 PB (beaten by Kemei who was 2nd to him the two races before)
Aug 25: 1st Kobenhavn 3:51.96
Sep 6: 1st Rieti 3:28.86 PB

So he "disappeared" for 11 days off after 3 races in 7 days to run on a notoriously fast track. Reality: he just took Brussels off after a very busy racing calendar.

Certainly Morceli could have been threatened by Elliott in 1991. That being said, if you are able to run 3:32 with a 51-second last lap in a championship 1500, you are most likely just a dominant athlete period. Not just because one guy is hurt. Elliott was really good and certainly would've been closer than Kirochi who finished second in Tokyo. In the form he showed, whether he'd be right with Morceli (I'm dubious), a half second back, a full second back etc. is a matter of debate. If he truly "fully expected" to run 3:27, though he is a bigger talent than I'd pegged him as.

I don't which relevance this has at all, but 8 seconds faster than his older brother and coach.

I have to correct myself: Coevett's 11 seconds are 7 seconds.

Surprised you are unaware that Elliott was working full time doing hard manual labour in a Sheffield steel mill for most of the 80's. He broke Ovett's junior records when he was a teen. He might have been an ugly runner, but he was in the same talent bracket as the other golden Brits. To give you an idea how close he would have been to Morceli in 91, in 1990 he broke the 1500m indoor WR, and in 1991 Morceli shaved just 4/100ths off it.

So Elliott started doping? How else is a late 20s athlete cutting 5s off their PR?

Well I knew he was very good — he did win two global Silvers and a Commonwealth gold. Capable of running 3:27 or even 3:28 (pre-super shoes and Monaco) is a different level though, and you'd probably put that in the Coe talent bracket alone (given his 1:41.7 and 2:12.18 marks along with his obvious 1500/mile upside).

But without injury Elliott would have run 3:27 in 91. Clean.

I't so so sad that you immediately downvote any post which corrects your wrong numbers, Vetty. Why are you doing so, Vetty?