But biological sex is quite clearly defined in the most basic scientific terms. Using the "logic" of non-binary category supporters though we should also have an Autism spectrum category with $5000 in prize money too then.
,,,and we could go down the wormhole of all sorts of categories on the mental scale - oops gender dysphoria isn't mental--sorry my bad.
Someone should post this on Reddit to get more people aware
You should post Rojo's article on Reddit and see how fast your Reddit account gets banned by the wokes over there for not conforming to their leftist fairy tales.
My objection to the article is not based on the strict merits. I agree that categorizing athletic competition based on biological sex (and by physical disabilities) makes sense because these categories directly and clearly impact athletic performance , while other categories, including gender, are not relevant to athletic outcomes even if they might be highly relevant categories in other circumstances.
My objection relates to the outsize importance the article gives to this particular problem, of having a “non-binary” category in the race. In light of all the actual sh-t that goes on and afflicts women and especially women of color, arguining that having this category and paying up to $15k in prize money is an important assault on biological women’s athletics is absurd. It’s even more absurd to label this a racist act aimed at discriminating against women of color. How about devoting the same rhetorical energy to combatting real misogyny in sports as manifest in the sexualization and objectifying of women athletes, securing the safety of women athletes out in the community, stopping the predatory and abusive behavior of coaches, ending the unequal pay in all aspects of sports, correcting the unequal facilities, etc. It trivializes the actual historical plight of black women growing up in a world wrecked first by colonialism and then riven by civil war and political instability to say that creating this race category is a further important injury to them. Elevating this issue strikes me more as bullying than actually defending biological women.
I also lean pretty far left and agree with rojo (that's a first) and runragged. I think letsrun does devote a LOT of coverage to the issue of gender in sports and rojo does have an axe to grind, but that doesn't negate some of the points being made that I think are valid. This thread is such a mess at this point though I'm not going to try and add anything more substantial than this.
Please share what you mean when you speak of "everything we know about gender identity" which "we got past in the 80s" which shows it's not a belief.
As far as I can figure out, a gender identity is belief about the self that some people hold based on their fixation on sexist sex stereotypes and their conviction that sexist sex stereotypes are of paramount importance and they are the primary criteria which define human beings. Similar to how some people believe they have souls based on their faith in a religion and their conviction that the tenets of their religion are of paramount importance and all humans should be judged and categorized according to them.
Personally, I don't remember much talk about gender identity in the 1980s. As I recall, the only people who were thought to have a gender identity back then were those who wished they were the opposite sex. In the 1980s, gender identity was mainly discussed by that very small group of people and the sexologists and other clinicians who treated and studied them.
But maybe I missed the ball here. Again, please share "everything we know about gender identity" that "we got past in the 80s."
You come to this board a lot and assert stuff far outside of your apparent expertise - I suspect the academic establishment or literate circles are too intimidating for you and it's easier to appear smart/dominating on this board full of troll-ish bros who don't care to learn more about the subject matter at hand.
Your dismissal of a few decades of gender theory... and actual evidence from athletic competition doesn't fly past the few of us who have read a little.
I'll let you have your fun, but just know that you are preaching to the choir here, not enlightening any minds, furthering any causes, or really doing anything at all!
What exactly are you referring to when you say I "come to this board a lot and assert stuff far outside of your apparent expertise"?
I post on this board only about a narrow range of topics about which I have expertise. These include: sex differences in human males and females and how/why they matter in sports; the history of women's and girls' sports and the sex discrimination girls and women have experienced in sports; the specific nature of the disorders/differences of male sex development that have been exploited and lied about to allow biological males like Caster Semenya to compete and clean up in women's events; gender identity ideology; facts of human female anatomy, physiology and experience; child development...
Repeating what I asked before and you ignored: please name the texts that you think will convince me and others that fairness for female persons in sports should be abandoned because of "a few decades of gender theory" and will cause us to agree with your claim that "actual evidence from athletic competition [supporting sex separate categories] doesn't fly past the few of us who have read a little."
Someone should post this on Reddit to get more people aware
Anyone who posts anything on Reddit questioning gender identity ideology and the male supremacy it promotes gets banned.
Please explain what gender ideology is and how it promotes male supremacy. I understand that you do not like men. You appear to hate men. You give yourself away in almost every post and consequently you have little credibility and even less objectivity.
Changing gender identities goes against nature. If you don't feel like you fit with either- then YOU are the problem, not nature. Nature is never wrong.
this truth seems to annoy a lot of people seeing the number of downvotes.
Changing gender identities goes against nature. If you don't feel like you fit with either- then YOU are the problem, not nature. Nature is never wrong.
this truth seems to annoy a lot of people seeing the number of downvotes.
It is annoying to me ONLY because it manifests such a meager level of intelligence. If nature is never wrong, then let us assume that the non-binary has not (due to the impossibility) removed themselves from nature, then they remain not wrong IF nature is never wrong.
this truth seems to annoy a lot of people seeing the number of downvotes.
It is annoying to me ONLY because it manifests such a meager level of intelligence. If nature is never wrong, then let us assume that the non-binary has not (due to the impossibility) removed themselves from nature, then they remain not wrong IF nature is never wrong.
human beings were given by nature free will. Which gives the capacity to remove oneself from nature as you say. It's not something new. We have done this as a species for milleniums with technologies. 21st century is the culmination of this process and that's how people come with such weird ideas and feelings. Human beings disconnected from nature loose common sens and degenerate because even if we have the capacity to remove from nature, it's not something desirable as we originally are creatures from nature, we need to keep connexion with it and to respect its laws to stay in a state of sound body and mind.
While I agree with you on this topic rojo, I don't think it's smart and respectfull to illustrate the article with a picture that is a zoom on the face of a non binary runner. It looks like persecution. The runner does not deserve that and it probably harms your point.
I agree. White men are so used to having life easy compared to others that they have worked out ways of getting prizes for bring average.
There used to ge a calculation done in discrimination case law where the number of people who benefitted from the rule in practice was calculated on the basis of whatever discrimination was alleged. So the number of males or white people benefitting when compared to the number of females or non white people here is clearly much larger, and should therefore be discriminatory.
Offering male, female and non-binary as categories of competition conflates sex (immutable and consisting of two, male and female) with gender identity (fluid and difficult to define).
Rojo, for someone who claims to dislike Trump, you share his complete lack of nuance.
For example, I think Caster Semenya shouldn't be allowed to compete in as a woman, but to describe her as definitively and immutably male is ridiculous. It's reductive and unkind. I'm glad you're not in charge of anything meaningful.
Agree: there should be absolutely no gender identity in sports, especially distance running. There should instead be just a single open competition category that does not account for any gender. In this way everyone: men, women, non binary, trans etc etc, can compete on an equal footing and this would be the fairest situation - the first person across the line is the race winner regardless of their gender identity.
You'd think a third category would satisfy those with the "men killing womens sports" argument. its irrelevant who got the prize money in the non-binary division because they all agreed to the terms by entering that division.
Having a non binary division doesn't solve the issue of men in women's sports. Two separate issues.
Transwomen can still enter the women's division as they identify as women, not necessarily non binary.
We have 3 categories where XY can win now: Men's, Women's, Non Binary.
While I tend to agree with the write up, one thing that crossed my mind was having a more defined guideline by NYRR for prize money eligibility. Since non binary can include both genetic sexes, I feel like the bare minimum step should be to require a non binary athlete to run the time equivalent to what females are required to run to gain entry into the elite division. Not sure what that number is, but it has to be low 2:40s or better.
i don’t really mind runners choosing to run as non binary, but it’s frustrating to see prize money rewarded for athletic achievements that are ordinary. This is one of the biggest running events on the planet. How was a loophole created that someone barely breaking 3:10 and being beaten by hundreds of people one of the only 22 able bodied runners to receive prize money. When you have so many athletes who performed better get nothing.
A solution could be this. Sign up for your division by biological sex. Then a second box for your gender identity. That way nobody mis genders these athletes.
if we had an influx of intersex athletes, a third division makes sense, as they would fall between the lines of the two existing divisions. Non binary has to do with identity. So if we award the prize money and create a division for them, why not one for all sexual orientations, religions etc.
very interested to see how it plays out. I feel it’s here to stay as backtracking is a pr nightmare, so I expect to see sub elite men/women capitalize going forward. It’s free money for the taking, assuming you are morally ok with bending the rules.
I don’t understand the big deal about this at all. The Men and Women category prizes were not reduced for the non-binary category.
This is what you choose to get worked up about?
3) I do think it is discriminatory and hurting dark/brown African runners, particularly female. The poster here says the men's and women's categories were not reduced. I don't buy that argument. There is only so much money to split up. The reality is the World Marathon Majors winners from Africa - Eliud Kipchoge and Gotytom Gebreslase - were supposed to win $250,000 for winning the Series title but were told a few weeks ago to go pound said, they'd only be paid $50k.
So New York doesn't have money for the black WMM majors but suddenly finds $15,000 for this? And who is winning all of this non-binary prize money? So far it's been 100% taken by some of the most privileged people in our society - white males with degrees from super prestigious universities. It's really disgusting. The "let's don't send money to the black and brown people of Africa, let's send it to a bunch of privileged white people masquerading as modern day Rosa Parkses" needs to stop.
I can understand a lot of your viewpoints even if I don't fully agree, but this one hurts your point.
African runners are not entitled to winning these events; any other race or ethnic group can enter.
Non-binary people are not only white; every other race or ethnic group has non-binary people.
Those two groups of people do not take away from the other. To pit them against each other is not only incorrect, but it is the classic scare tactic of pitting two groups against each other in the hopes to create conflict. We see this tactic commonly used by extreme right-wing media/Trump/Breitbart.
You are trying to argue that Kipchoge and Gebreslase's $200k reduction in winnings is due to the $15k non-binary prize pool. This is ridiculous, even for you.
Agree: there should be absolutely no gender identity in sports, especially distance running. There should instead be just a single open competition category that does not account for any gender. In this way everyone: men, women, non binary, trans etc etc, can compete on an equal footing and this would be the fairest situation - the first person across the line is the race winner regardless of their gender identity.
This ^ X 100
This is the most obvious, simple, fair, and logical solution to all this twisted mess, and yet it will be ignored or met with angry opposition with failed arguments. It is the very definition of non-discriminatory. Not based on sex, race, religion, social status, etc.
The only segregation in sports should be age-based as children are developing, just like we do in education. Masters categories for old people should be tossed in the garbage bin as well.
Amyone against this is a bigoted fool with some selfish agenda that they use to override good reason.