I feel the same about OAC tbh...I mean they've got a 3:47 guy (yeah right) and a 10k guy who just beat a 26:33 runner....pretty suspicious.
This is fair--but so far OAC doesn't have anyone serving a ban. The light came onto BTC when Shelby was caught. It's impossible to say...what is possible in the sport. But I'm going to be way more suspicious of BTC because of Shelby than I am of OAC for now.
Money. Once he confessed there was nothing else to do. Just business.
Doping isn't evil. It is cheating to win, and even then it is very easy to rationalize ("everyone does it"). When the USPS sponsorship began there had already been major doping scandals in cycling like the Festina affair at the 1998 Tour. They and all the other big sponsors knew exactly what they were getting involved with. But they deemed it worthwhile. It was still good advertising. No one at the head of USPS directed the team to dope. Rather they invested in and hired people and told them to win in a dope infested sport.
Nike though is a special case. Its top executives had a direct connection to the sport of running. NOP was created specifically as a vehicle to make US runners competitive internationally in the EPO age. You think in starting NOP the Nike brass did not know what they were getting into? No one is that stupid. In the post-epo era there is one way that distance runners can compete internationally. No way around it.
Anyway none of this is complicated or conspiratorial.
So why did Armstrong’s contract require him to repay his salary in the event he used PEDs?
You say Nike expects it athletes to cheat. Nike is an “it” but it’s employees are a “they” and which ones expected BTC to cheat? Did someone actually tell Schumacher that or was it a wink and a nudge? If a total of 50 people are involved, are all of them going to be willing to lie under oath after the sh*t hits the fan?
Before a contract is signed, the BTC would need to disclose to the runner that he/she is required to cheat. If they didn’t, they could sued when that athlete learns the BTC is a cesspool of cheaters.
The payoff for all these people putting their careers on the line would be Grant and Emma winning Bronze Medals.
I feel the same about OAC tbh...I mean they've got a 3:47 guy (yeah right) and a 10k guy who just beat a 26:33 runner....pretty suspicious.
This is fair--but so far OAC doesn't have anyone serving a ban. The light came onto BTC when Shelby was caught. It's impossible to say...what is possible in the sport. But I'm going to be way more suspicious of BTC because of Shelby than I am of OAC for now.
Ritz almost certainly dabbled in "grey area" stuff with Alberto...it's not like he learned special coaching tricks from anyone else. And with OAC running so well now, well....
The main issue for me is their recovery. People who are mentioning they barely won their events are forgetting a lot of them doubled or had raced at the US 10k champs. Karissa was "only" 4th in the 1500 but that was while she was in shape to win the 10k a few eeks prior and then came back to get second in the 5k after the 1500 rounds. I get that you can be in shape for multiple events at a time, but I have trouble believing that Shelby's training partner, who came 2 seconds back from her in that insane 5k time trial in 2020, is perfectly clean. The way they handled Shelby's ban and her post-ban training situation makes me look at all their "quirky" team behaviors, like skipping major races, in a negative light.
Further, I simply don't believe that the talent gap between BTC and every other group is that large or that Schumacher has a secret training method that know one else knows. I get that its possible to be in shape after multiple events, but their overall dominance in conjunction with Shelby's conviction is sketchy to me. They don't "ruin" the meet, some of their races are my favorite to watch, but I'm skeptical that their results are clean.
I agree with most everything you write, but I don't think racing at the US 10k champs would negatively impact running the 5k given they were spread out so much. For an elite athlete doped or clean that is sufficient time to recover.
its an important point, and i'm confused and struggling with this as well. why can't we have transparency?
is there anyone on this board who has been involved in doping or seen it first hand? i'd like to understand; is this an athlete choice?
the reason it seems like a group-sponsored choice is the repeated passes, the access to illegal or hard to find substances, etc...
that said, we know the "clinics" out there (balco, for example) catered to individuals. just not sure folks in T&F have that kind of bank to go hire independent doping consultants, though i could certainly be mistaken.
would just love one of the dopers or people who have seen it first hand to explain whether this sort of thing happens at the team level or the individual level. it makes rooting for athletes very confusing and difficult.
would just love one of the dopers or people who have seen it first hand to explain whether this sort of thing happens at the team level or the individual level. it makes rooting for athletes very confusing and difficult.
Several people have (somewhat) openly spoken about the doping culture at AW. For NOP and BTC, it's still too early. Also have a look at Aden's team/scandal.
My take is that it's between individuals and the whole team, meaning it's selected people in one team, carefully approached and then organized by the (assistant) coach.
As such, I do think that there are some clean BTC athletes. How many, and who, well who knows.
Yes, you're absolutely right, I should've explained that better. I confounded the two issues I have with her performance.
For the 10k, I meant that the fact that Karissa is in shape to win the US 10k champs and then almost make a 1500 team at the same month, seems like such an incredible range of fitness it makes me skeptical of her doping status because of her connection to Shelby.
For the 1500-5000 double, it's a really competitive double and the recovery there is impressive, which also makes me a bit skeptical. Her weekend seemed like college conference meet kind of stuff.
I totally get it's possible to be in shape for a range of events at once, but the ability to take the US champ in the 1500 to the line and then come in a close second in the 5k two days later seems way beyond what any other US runner, male or female, can do right now.
its an important point, and i'm confused and struggling with this as well. why can't we have transparency?
is there anyone on this board who has been involved in doping or seen it first hand? i'd like to understand; is this an athlete choice?
the reason it seems like a group-sponsored choice is the repeated passes, the access to illegal or hard to find substances, etc...
that said, we know the "clinics" out there (balco, for example) catered to individuals. just not sure folks in T&F have that kind of bank to go hire independent doping consultants, though i could certainly be mistaken.
would just love one of the dopers or people who have seen it first hand to explain whether this sort of thing happens at the team level or the individual level. it makes rooting for athletes very confusing and difficult.
Doesn’t your version of transparency involve confessions? I don’t think that’s happening anytime soon.
BTW Yes, you missed her (Cranny) essentially nonstop hard training and sacrifices the past 3 1/2 years along with the fact she had multiple stress injuries in college and has now been able to stay healthy through rest and improved fueling for an extended period because she has learned from her mistakes.
Do you see how hollow this sounds, given the ban that Shelby, her former training partner, is serving? I am not sure if you know Elise personally since you this does feel defensive, but here's the issue with this from an objective point of view.
--Doping aids "non stop hard training". It can help recovery and allow runners to do more where as clean athletes may get hurt or exhausted. People who are capable of working harder than others should be met with more scrutiny since realistically, everyone works hard in the sport.
--Again, Doping CAN help runners stay healthy. Nandrolone can aid in that too. "I was able to stay healthy" was also a Shelby excuse for her dramatic improvement, and she is serving a ban right now. Staying healthy helps for sure. But how much does it help in the grand scheme of things?
It's totally possible that Elise has learned from mistakes and improved the clean way. But her and BTC associations with a drug cheat + their dominance is going to cause some side eye. Elise is not the runner that I am the most wary of (Karissa is) but she doesn't get a free pass, or the benefit of the doubt. Elise has hardly said anything about clean sport, explained why she thinks Shelby is innocent other than a version of "I like her!" And then she goes and consistently destroys the fields she is in.
Talking about "hard work" "sacrifice" and "nutrition" are red flags for me, along with "form changes". Everyone does these things, and they aren't an explanation for dramatic improvement out of no where.
Cranny is the far more suspicious of the two based on the points that you made. Talented high school runner that stalled in college (it happens a lot!), then has a sudden improvement because of "better training" and "staying healthy." Her best 5K time dropped by 1:40 in her first two years with BTC (granted it was a bad 5K time her senior year) and she ran a 14:33 indoors (!!!!) this year. Schweizer only dropped 36 seconds in that same time period on her 5K, but that was off a very fast collegiate time of 15:02. Ironically, that is only her season best for this year. She actually only has a best time of 14:51 since Shelby's positive test.
Jager is(was) a doper. He was listed as "likely doping" on the leaked USADA report. I doubt very much that only he and Houlihan were doping among BTC athletes.
I couldn't help but be a bit leery/suspicious/cynical seeing the successes of BTC athletes this past weekend. I mean, I really want to cheer for Grant, Karissa, etc, and think that Jager could be a cool story, but with all of the SH stuff, and the way BTC handled it, I'm left with some doubts...which is too bad if these runners are actually squeaky clean.
I wish BTC did a better job explaining their side of the story (and not continue to work with SH to the point where at least one athlete had to leave due to the distraction and lack of clarity of having her around!)...maybe I could have celebrated these athletes and their accomplishments more.
It was really disappointing how BTC coaches + athletes read the Nike lawyer talking points right when the SH stuff went down. I think most of us saw right through that. Then they had Shalane go on her marathon press tour to have us forget about things. Lost a lot of respect for them. Really liked what they had built. Really liked a lot of their athletes. You can't tell me all of the comings/goings from the group were purely performance based. & now they've done nothing to really earn our trust back. They're not even trying.
Huge congratulations to all the BTC athletes who have respectfully earned their spots on the USA team. Almost all of them have come back from injury, an illness, etc., and deserve to be applauded. None of them (Shelby aside) have ever given anyone reason to criticize their character. And if you follow other pro runners they all seem equally happy for their accomplishments. Boom. 🇺🇸👏🏻💪🏻
Jager is(was) a doper. He was listed as "likely doping" on the leaked USADA report. I doubt very much that only he and Houlihan were doping among BTC athletes.
At the very least it seems like there's an inner circle to BTC. See when DeBues-Stafford left the team, and her claim that went uncontested by Houlihan's statement or by the team, that she didnt get told about Shelby's ban until the week the public found out, and that she and Lucia Stafford didn't know Shelby was being coached by Schumacher during her ban until they showed up for 2021 Fall training.
It shows that a group of in the know people in the team are capable of hiding pretty massive secrets from even their teammates for 6+ months with success. That's pretty wild.
Jager is(was) a doper. He was listed as "likely doping" on the leaked USADA report. I doubt very much that only he and Houlihan were doping among BTC athletes.
At the very least it seems like there's an inner circle to BTC. See when DeBues-Stafford left the team, and her claim that went uncontested by Houlihan's statement or by the team, that she didnt get told about Shelby's ban until the week the public found out, and that she and Lucia Stafford didn't know Shelby was being coached by Schumacher during her ban until they showed up for 2021 Fall training.
It shows that a group of in the know people in the team are capable of hiding pretty massive secrets from even their teammates for 6+ months with success. That's pretty wild.
IDK how I would feel if I were in GDS' position. I think I would understand it on an intellectual level (as I think she did) that she was not told, and be thankful that she didn't know so she didn't have to think about it, but I wouldn't be able to help but feel a whole lot of betrayal and frankly disrespect knowing that coaches and several athletes knew that a runner was suspended for doping for six months. I get why she calls that experience traumatizing.
Not really, but I did not root for them. Two that made it I'm okay with, and that might just be personal bias as I have followed them for a long time. The rest of the group, meh. I'd rather see someone else take 5th or 10th at worlds than see most any of BTC medal.