I think we need to have a serious discussion if we should even have "women's" sports anymore. It's just getting to be a total joke.
It's like allowing high schoolers to run in the middle school division. If they're just going to allow anyone to run as a woman, it's definitely time to just have one division "Human 100M", et al.
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an interest woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
You think that "suspected intersex" is better? Shame. Hall of Shame worthy.
The perplexity and even the derision that these competitors evoke by competing in women's events shows the manifest failure on the part of those who run the sports to deal with this issue.
The derision of intersex and trans athletes is evidence that something needs to be done to prevent them competing in the women's events?
Advocacy for mob rule
It is difficult for some to respect them when they don't respect what they have chosen to do.
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an interest woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
Please play along with my denying of reality so my website isn't cancelled by the wokes...
OK, well said. Why did she compete then? Is this outside IAAF or something?
200m is not a restricted event under the DSD rule. That could change after this season, depending on how fast Mboma runs.
And to anyone who thinks it would take the new WR to change the rule, Semenya did not break the WR.
To be clear: the WA/IAAF DSD regulations apply to athletes competing in women's track & field, not to the events themselves. The WA regulations now in place originally were meant to apply to all athletes with the specific DSDs listed in the rule in all and any women's events. But the CAS in its decision in the Semenya case said the IAAF/WA could only put the DSD regulations in force in middle-distance events (the 400m through the mile).
In other words, women's events themselves are not restricted by the DSD regulations. XY DSD athletes seeking to participate in certain women's events are restricted in the amount of natural testosterone they are allowed to have.
The DSD regulations now in place require affected XY DSD athletes to reduce their testosterone to under 5 nmol/L for 6 months in order to in order to be eligible to compete in women's events from the 400m to the mile. In time, the CAS will presumably allow WA to require affected XY DSD athletes to reduce their T levels to participate in a broader range of women's events - perhaps even all of them.
However, it should be noted that even then, the DSD rules as they are currently written would not go so far as to bar XY DSD athletes from competing in any women's track & field events. XY DSD athletes with conditions like Semenya's and Seyni's could all continue competing in women's events so long as they reduce their T levels for a time.
I know what I've said in this post is obvious to many. But I've spelled it out anyways because I keep reading and hearing people say that Semenya, Seyni, Niyonsaba, Mboma and Masilingi have been "banned" from the particular women's events that they originally competed and excelled in. This is not true. None of these or other XY athletes with the kinds of DSDs at issue here have been banned from women's competition governed by the IAAF/WA. The XY DSD athletes who've successfully switched to running other distances in elite events like Niyonsaba and Seyni have - or who fell out of elite competition altogether after mid-2019 like Semenya and Wambui - have all done so because to continue running in the events they previously competed in would have required reducing their testosterone levels - which none of them is willing to do.
WA is not seeking to ban XY DSD athletes from women's competition, either. WA's aim is to make women's competition a bit fairer by saying XY DSD athletes can still compete, but just with one condition - they have to lower their T for a spell. However, WA does not seem to have any plans to fully restore fairness to women's competition by barring XY athletes altogether. On the contrary, WA's current rules allow normally-developed XY athletes who claim opposite-sex gender identities to compete in women's events so long as they too reduce their T to under 5 nmol/L for a time.
I don’t get something , you worry about if a “intersex” is competing. What businesses is it of yours? If the competitors start complaining than you can start acting all high and mighty. Just leave these people alone.
As oppressive regimes and ideologies get toppled we are finding there is more variability to the human condition than we realized as people on the fringes are no longer forced to live in the shadows.
We should remove the notion of men's and women's division and start classifying divisions by testosterone and/or other hormone levels.
These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go.
They are being treated as human beings who have the intelligence to understand the information given to them by medical experts and their advisers, information which has been spelled out by WA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport: athletes with their particular kinds of disorders of male sex development have the same exact kinds and scale of unfair physical advantages over female athletes that males with normal sex development have.
They are being treated as human beings grown-up enough to know the fundamental differences between the two sexes, and with enough common sense to grasp why there are separate divisions for males and female in sports in the first place.
They are being treated as human beings with enough moral fibre basic human decency to know that the way they are behaving is unethical because it is patently unfair for anyone with male advantage to be competing in women's sports.
They are being treated as human beings who have the mental and emotional capacity, and enough regard for other human beings, to come to terms with the the fact that they were born with rare disorders of male sex development without taking it out on women.
They are being treated as human beings with enough "sportsmanship" to grasp that female athletes shouldn't be made to suffer and pay in order to compensate them for being born with partially undescended testes and anomalies of urogenital anatomy.
Other than their urogenital anatomy developing atypically during gestation in utero, there is nothing physically wrong with athletes like Seyni and Semenya. They are robustly healthy, in fact.
The people who are treating these athletes as "lesser" and are marginalizing them are those who believe that males who were born with their testes in a place other than the scrotal sac and without normally-developed penises should be shunted aside and cast out from the company and sports competition of boys and men because they can't accept that males with DSDs are bona fide members of the male sex who deserve to be treated as the equals of other males.
The people who are dehumanizing these athletes are the ones "othering" them by regarding them as deficient males and saying they should "run and play with the girls."
I think we need to have a serious discussion if we should even have "women's" sports anymore. It's just getting to be a total joke.
It's like allowing high schoolers to run in the middle school division. If they're just going to allow anyone to run as a woman, it's definitely time to just have one division "Human 100M", et al.
Sorry bud, not your decision and no one cared about your opinion. STFU
These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go.
They are being treated as human beings who have the intelligence to understand the information given to them by medical experts and their advisers, information which has been spelled out by WA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport: athletes with their particular kinds of disorders of male sex development have the same exact kinds and scale of unfair physical advantages over female athletes that males with normal sex development have.
They are being treated as human beings grown-up enough to know the fundamental differences between the two sexes, and with enough common sense to grasp why there are separate divisions for males and female in sports in the first place.
They are being treated as human beings with enough moral fibre basic human decency to know that the way they are behaving is unethical because it is patently unfair for anyone with male advantage to be competing in women's sports.
They are being treated as human beings who have the mental and emotional capacity, and enough regard for other human beings, to come to terms with the the fact that they were born with rare disorders of male sex development without taking it out on women.
They are being treated as human beings with enough "sportsmanship" to grasp that female athletes shouldn't be made to suffer and pay in order to compensate them for being born with partially undescended testes and anomalies of urogenital anatomy.
Other than their urogenital anatomy developing atypically during gestation in utero, there is nothing physically wrong with athletes like Seyni and Semenya. They are robustly healthy, in fact.
The people who are treating these athletes as "lesser" and are marginalizing them are those who believe that males who were born with their testes in a place other than the scrotal sac and without normally-developed penises should be shunted aside and cast out from the company and sports competition of boys and men because they can't accept that males with DSDs are bona fide members of the male sex who deserve to be treated as the equals of other males.
The people who are dehumanizing these athletes are the ones "othering" them by regarding them as deficient males and saying they should "run and play with the girls."
You need to know your place and stay in your lane. I suppose you lack the requisite intelligence to see how they are being described, likely erroneously, as if they have penises and mocked endlessly due to the way they were born. Educate yourself before lecturing your superiors.
“Therefore, taking a conservative approach, to allow DSD athletes to compete in the gender with which they identify as far as possible without restriction, the new Regulations only apply to track events between 400m and one mile (and only to international competitions). However, the revised Regulations expressly confirm that the IAAF Health & Science Department will keep this under review. If future evidence or new scientific knowledge indicates that there is good justification to expand or narrow the number of events affected by the Regulations, it will propose such revisions to the IAAF Council”
Based on the last sentence, isnt it likely that, in the near future, distances longer than 1500m will also require testosterone suppression for DSD athletes?
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go.
They are being treated as human beings who have the intelligence to understand the information given to them by medical experts and their advisers, information which has been spelled out by WA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport: athletes with their particular kinds of disorders of male sex development have the same exact kinds and scale of unfair physical advantages over female athletes that males with normal sex development have.
They are being treated as human beings grown-up enough to know the fundamental differences between the two sexes, and with enough common sense to grasp why there are separate divisions for males and female in sports in the first place.
They are being treated as human beings with enough moral fibre basic human decency to know that the way they are behaving is unethical because it is patently unfair for anyone with male advantage to be competing in women's sports.
They are being treated as human beings who have the mental and emotional capacity, and enough regard for other human beings, to come to terms with the the fact that they were born with rare disorders of male sex development without taking it out on women.
They are being treated as human beings with enough "sportsmanship" to grasp that female athletes shouldn't be made to suffer and pay in order to compensate them for being born with partially undescended testes and anomalies of urogenital anatomy.
Other than their urogenital anatomy developing atypically during gestation in utero, there is nothing physically wrong with athletes like Seyni and Semenya. They are robustly healthy, in fact.
The people who are treating these athletes as "lesser" and are marginalizing them are those who believe that males who were born with their testes in a place other than the scrotal sac and without normally-developed penises should be shunted aside and cast out from the company and sports competition of boys and men because they can't accept that males with DSDs are bona fide members of the male sex who deserve to be treated as the equals of other males.
The people who are dehumanizing these athletes are the ones "othering" them by regarding them as deficient males and saying they should "run and play with the girls."
You need to know your place and stay in your lane. I suppose you lack the requisite intelligence to see how they are being described, likely erroneously, as if they have penises and mocked endlessly due to the way they were born. Educate yourself before lecturing your superiors.
Requisite intelligence? You are a joke, and a moran.
These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go.
They are being treated as human beings who have the intelligence to understand the information given to them by medical experts and their advisers, information which has been spelled out by WA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport: athletes with their particular kinds of disorders of male sex development have the same exact kinds and scale of unfair physical advantages over female athletes that males with normal sex development have.
They are being treated as human beings grown-up enough to know the fundamental differences between the two sexes, and with enough common sense to grasp why there are separate divisions for males and female in sports in the first place.
They are being treated as human beings with enough moral fibre basic human decency to know that the way they are behaving is unethical because it is patently unfair for anyone with male advantage to be competing in women's sports.
They are being treated as human beings who have the mental and emotional capacity, and enough regard for other human beings, to come to terms with the the fact that they were born with rare disorders of male sex development without taking it out on women.
They are being treated as human beings with enough "sportsmanship" to grasp that female athletes shouldn't be made to suffer and pay in order to compensate them for being born with partially undescended testes and anomalies of urogenital anatomy.
Other than their urogenital anatomy developing atypically during gestation in utero, there is nothing physically wrong with athletes like Seyni and Semenya. They are robustly healthy, in fact.
The people who are treating these athletes as "lesser" and are marginalizing them are those who believe that males who were born with their testes in a place other than the scrotal sac and without normally-developed penises should be shunted aside and cast out from the company and sports competition of boys and men because they can't accept that males with DSDs are bona fide members of the male sex who deserve to be treated as the equals of other males.
The people who are dehumanizing these athletes are the ones "othering" them by regarding them as deficient males and saying they should "run and play with the girls."
IF you were only smarter, and sadly you are not, you would recognize that you consider women to be inferior. You believe that because they are inferior they need a separate category for them. Now you are showing your true colors. You are a misogynist who holds women in contempt, even if you are a woman yourself. You believe that women must coddled and protected because they are inferior. Because they are inferior in your eyes, anyone who is not as inferior (again, in your eyes), is committing a grave transgression by competing against them. Just because you are obsessed with this subject does not mean you are objective. You have an agenda which you constantly try to shove down our throats.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go.
They are being treated as human beings who have the intelligence to understand the information given to them by medical experts and their advisers, information which has been spelled out by WA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport: athletes with their particular kinds of disorders of male sex development have the same exact kinds and scale of unfair physical advantages over female athletes that males with normal sex development have.
They are being treated as human beings grown-up enough to know the fundamental differences between the two sexes, and with enough common sense to grasp why there are separate divisions for males and female in sports in the first place.
They are being treated as human beings with enough moral fibre basic human decency to know that the way they are behaving is unethical because it is patently unfair for anyone with male advantage to be competing in women's sports.
They are being treated as human beings who have the mental and emotional capacity, and enough regard for other human beings, to come to terms with the the fact that they were born with rare disorders of male sex development without taking it out on women.
They are being treated as human beings with enough "sportsmanship" to grasp that female athletes shouldn't be made to suffer and pay in order to compensate them for being born with partially undescended testes and anomalies of urogenital anatomy.
Other than their urogenital anatomy developing atypically during gestation in utero, there is nothing physically wrong with athletes like Seyni and Semenya. They are robustly healthy, in fact.
The people who are treating these athletes as "lesser" and are marginalizing them are those who believe that males who were born with their testes in a place other than the scrotal sac and without normally-developed penises should be shunted aside and cast out from the company and sports competition of boys and men because they can't accept that males with DSDs are bona fide members of the male sex who deserve to be treated as the equals of other males.
The people who are dehumanizing these athletes are the ones "othering" them by regarding them as deficient males and saying they should "run and play with the girls."
IF you were only smarter, and sadly you are not, you would recognize that you consider women to be inferior. You believe that because they are inferior they need a separate category for them. Now you are showing your true colors. You are a misogynist who holds women in contempt, even if you are a woman yourself. You believe that women must coddled and protected because they are inferior. Because they are inferior in your eyes, anyone who is not as inferior (again, in your eyes), is committing a grave transgression by competing against them. Just because you are obsessed with this subject does not mean you are objective. You have an agenda which you constantly try to shove down our throats.
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These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
Your outrage is misplaced. Your virtue signaling should be held for cis-gendered female athletes who are not competing on a level playing field. Who will speak up for them? You?