To another invisible cat:
In order for the cynics to be right, however, they would have to prove what they are talking about. I don't see any objective proof on ???'s side... only sweeping generalizations.
To ???:
As for your "GLIAC-competitive, 15:30 or so time," you're off. Last year it took a 15:12 to score one point at GLIAC outdoor. Your generalizations have been stretching the facts (not surprisingly in your favor) throughout this thread. Who's telling the truth?
They did finish 11th in the nation this past cross country season. I'm sure their budget isn't nearly as large as most D1 schools in the area. As for producing solid athletes as of late, Steve Larson just ran a 14:23 at the EMU Twilight meet. Granted a guy like David Ernberger who wasn't even on the varsity squad at Hillsdale his frosh year is now running low 14's. And I know of another runner that transferred from BG who ran in the low 25's there and did quite well in high school that struggled to break 26 this year as a junior at Hillsdale. Regardless, it is up to the runner if he wants to succeed he will put the work in, don't pin it on the school or the coach.
You guys are like my little pug bulldog. He thinks when he is tries to wrestle my sock away from me that he is going to get by virtue of his great strength. Actually, he may get the sock, but only because I let him. This "argument" is the same way.
scotth, I am glad you're willing to concede that poor writing leads to incorrecct conclusions.
Cynic, there can be "up" years and "down" years. The fact that last years conference meet had the last point winner in 15:12 as opposed to 15:30 hardly means that I am incorrect. We are talking what the norm is over many years. But to appease you, I will give Hillsdale's conference performances over the last couple of years.
2003 Indoors
14:37, 14:57, 15:49
2002 Indoors
7th place - 15:27
2001 Indoors
15:07, 15:16, 15:27, 15:37
2002 Outdoors
14:53, 15:04, 15:12, 15:35
2001 Outdoors
15:13, 15:33, 15:57
Do these suggest that I was incorrect, or as you put insinuated, lying? Actually, upon second reading of your note, I think you are trying to convey that you would like me to take my complimentary discriptors of "respectable" and "GLIAC-Competitive" out. That is fine. Here is the amended sentence, so that it does not appear that I am stretching the facts: "Hillsdale will most likely do very well in getting you to a 15:30 or so time."
Michigan Runner, you are completely right. The ultimate responsibility falls on the runner. However, I think that there are a couple of good reasons to identify unnecessary shortcomings. 1) Potential runners should be made well aware of the pros and cons of a program before entering. 2) Perhaps those currently involved in the program can work towards bettering the program.
??? wrote:
You guys are like my little pug bulldog. He thinks when he is tries to wrestle my sock away from me that he is going to get by virtue of his great strength. Actually, he may get the sock, but only because I let him. This "argument" is the same way.
scotth, I am glad you're willing to concede that poor writing leads to incorrecct conclusions.
???, you can keep the sock. I'm no match for you.
Comparing high school PRs to college PRs makes a lot more sense than listing GLIAC meet results from one event (which is often tactical).
Nonetheless, look at this year?s 5K more closely: the 14:37 (for second place) was under the old meet record, the 14:57 was a sophomore, and the 15:49 was a freshman, who ran 16:45 in high school, and has now run 15:26. Those numbers also make it look as if?gasp!?Hillsdale is improving.
We could play with the numbers even more: that 14:37 was faster than any of Michigan?s runners at Big Ten indoors. Does that mean everyone from U of M should transfer to Hillsdale? No way. It just means that looking at one conference meet event isn?t the absolute best way to define a program.
Speaking of transferring, where should people go instead of Hillsdale: name a school, and let?s see if it can hold up to your type of criticism? And what would Hillsdale have to do to stop being criticized? How much faster does that 14:37 have to get, or that 14:57, or that 15:49? And Larson does have another year of school left, by the way; how fast does he have to run? How fast does everyone else have to run? How fast does anyone have to run to not be an ?underachiever??
Finally, ??? you accuse people of getting defensive and bitter, but you seem bitter and defensive yourself? Why? Oh, that?s right, you can?t say for some reason. Well, why can?t you say? And if ??? won?t say, does anyone else have any ideas why he might be bitter? I bet those would be more interesting than most of these posts, because this thread is getting real lame.
Who cares about all this arguing. Larson got smoked in the 5000 at GLIAC indoors and he will again in outdoors. Go LSSU guy
To HC Alum- Thank You!!!!! Maybe now this thread will go away. This thread has made so many twists and turns that I forgot what the original argument was about -(it reminds me of talking with my wife). The bottom line is this, if your aspirations in life are to be the best damned runner you can possibly be, you CAN accomplish this feat under the coaching of Bill Lundberg. (period, Discussion Over). This next statement will "dumb down" this argument- when ??? tries to debate this truth, it is complete bullshit.
It seems like there's a lot of confusion regarding this post, but don't worry, I?m a psychologist trained in semantics, so I?ll clarify what's really going on in the mind of ???.
What he says:
maybe the reason that I am not using my name is because it really wouldn't be all that prudent of a thing to do at this time, and that I am merely offering constructive criticism to friends.
What he means:
I can?t use my name because I?m a 6:45 miler and 6:45 milers don?t have any friends.
What he says:
?blah-blah-blah-Hillsdale-blah-blah-blah-Scott Hubbard sucks-blah-blah-blah-I have a puppy- blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah?
What he means:
Sounds like something out of a Jane Austen read.
What he says:
You guys are like my little pug bulldog. He thinks when he is tries to wrestle my sock away from me that he is going to get by virtue of his great strength. Actually, he may get the sock, but only because I let him.
What he means:
I don?t wear socks anymore because when my dog gets them, I can?t chase him down with my 6:45 speed. But he can?t ?get by virtue of his strength? because I strong!
HC Alum, if you think that 14:30 - 16:00 is as good as Hillsdale should perform, then I guess we'll just end up disagreeing on this one. You'll have to forgive me if I think that guys such as yourself for the last 15 years could have done better. As for me, I am neither bitter nor defensive - except that others here are attacking me rather than the argument. I am glad Larson has another year. I hope he runs well this year and next. Even if he does, though, it will still be my opinion that it is because he is a good runner despite Lundberg's coaching. Maybe after several years, there will be enough new information to reassess.
Another Thought, are you scotth or Lundberg? The original question raised was, "I'm surprised you don't see any hillsdale college runners turning out top-quality times. Their coach ( former 8:30's 3k SC and 4 min. miler Bill Lundberg) must know what he's doing?" To which my initial answer was, "You would think, but the results say otherwise." Of course, in the end, it falls on the runner, but the biggest error that Hillsdale runners make is going there in the first place. Regardless, accept my condolences on the marital strife. However, you really would be better off to just concede when in an argument with your spouse because you are easily confused.
famous psychologist, hee hee - that's funny for a Hillsdale guy. Unfortunately, though, it appears with your reference to my 6:45 mile speed that you're assuming I'm currently or used to be a Charger. Sorry!
??? wrote:
Another Thought, are you scotth or Lundberg?
Neither. Keep your sock. Give us your best Jerry Springer Final Thought shot!
I'm sure this guy accuses Scotth or Lundberg of posting as Another Thought, when he's been posting under ??? the whole time.
Are there heat sheets, or seeding of any kind being posted for the meet? Let me know.
Ok, ???, you are NOT a former (or current) Hillsdale runner, but you are eminently qualified to talk about the program. How does this work?
Do not argue about the coach, it is up to the runner if he wants to achieve. I was a 9:33 3200m runner in high school with no competition and running multiple events. I could have gone low 9:20's. I got into college ran my 35-50 miles a week, with four week breaks after every season, and did not get any better. This fall I progressed up to 80 mile weeks and ran a lot faster. My last coach didn't tell me to only run 35-50 miles a week, nor did my new coach make me run 80 miles a week. It was my decision because I was sick of being a pussy. A coach can't make you improve, they can guide you, but you have to decide for yourself if you want to be as good as you can be. No one can blame the coach for their misfortunes. If your coach is pushing you to hard, back off. If he is not sneak some mileage in. If people are looking for a good place to go to college and become a good runner, go to the place where your going to be motivated and a place that has trails, and a get a coach that will listen, that is the number one thing, we all no how to get good by ourselves, hard work. By the way the guy rooting for me in a prior post, I am hurt, I will not be running. I am trying to work on getting a medical red shirt, but who knows.
2 cents, asking a question is not an accusation. But, I did think it was funny how scotth answered for both himself and Lundberg at 8AM. Hmmmm, I am sure "Another Thought" was not scotth. As unchallenging as Hillsdale is academically, I am going to assume that scotth's son must have gotten his mom's genes if he is considering to go there at all. And, if he got scotth's running genes, then I'd say it's a perfect fit - A win-win for everyone.
Aaron, thanks for the good words. We agree! Surely, you can't deny, though, that some coaches are better than others. Some, over the span of several years can prove themselves to be quite ineffective. On a differeent note, you said that you "could have" gone low 9:20s in HS off of very low mileage, yet as a 5th year Sr, you said "I didn't think I could ever run that fast" in reference to your 4:15?? Here's the link to see your quote
http://lssulakers.ocsn.com/sports/c-track/spec-rel/030803aaa.html
. How pathetic is that? It must suck to make the huge commitment of 80miles a week only to find that it didn't do a whole lot to help your sickness. And, if being a good listener is the number one thing, then Coach Lundberg is your man (note sarcasm).
cs, I never said I was not a current hillsdale runner (or alum), and I never said I was either. It's been fun screwing with you guys. OK, here goes - I just hang out in the training room a lot and have heard stuff.
Question: I'm surprised you don't see any hillsdale college runners turning out top-quality times. Their coach ( former 8:30's 3k SC and 4 min. miler Bill Lundberg) must know what he's doing?
Answer: You would think, but the results say otherwise.
- Paul Beachler
Does anyone else hate Scott Hubbard. I sure do.
I find him comical. Like Al Bundy. Only this Al Bundy couldn't even hold onto Peg. I stopped going into Running Fit because he is such a blow hard know it all. Sorry Steve.
??? wrote:
2 cents, asking a question is not an accusation. But, I did think it was funny how scotth answered for both himself and Lundberg at 8AM. Hmmmm, I am sure "Another Thought" was not scotth. As unchallenging as Hillsdale is academically, I am going to assume that scotth's son must have gotten his mom's genes if he is considering to go there at all. And, if he got scotth's running genes, then I'd say it's a perfect fit - A win-win for everyone.
- Paul Beachler
???, are we to infer your name is Paul Beachler? If so, thanks. If not, who is PB?
FWIW, my ex-wife's running accomplishments outstripped mine.
I've decided to let you keep your sock and don't care to respond to your thoughts outside of the above.
LDO & Dirt, feel free to express your thoughts, also, w/those that employ me or directly w/me. Hiding on this message board is not the right thing to do.
Dirt,
If Scott is the guy with the glasses in his mid forties that talks as if he was an olympian, then I agree. But the rest of the guys at Running Fit are great.
The only sickness I have got, is that I like to put hickies on my arms to make it look like girls have put them there, and I love to whipe my but with with my underware and lie the underware on campus. Those are my real sicknesses