It always amazes me when people look at someone who is more successful at running than themselves and presume to know more about running than the successful person.
You don't need to be a good runner to be a good coach or understand training.
No you don't. But you need to have a good bit of experience in the sport and exposure to people who have been successful as either coaches or athletes. There used to be people who posted here that met that criteria and nearly all have left and in many cases it was because they got tired of arguing with people who'd read Daniels Running Formula and a few other things and think they know more than people who've actually accomplished significant things with their running or coaching do. There's another thread going on here where some guy is arguing that Jim Ryun shouldn't have run the 1500/mile based on some mathematical thing the guy has figured out. Yeah, Ryun and Timmons just weren't as sharp as that poster is.
The thing about the internet is that any yahoo can put something on it and act like an expert. If Canova got on here and said what Albertson did was a bad idea I'd have a different reaction than I do when some anonymous guy with no established credential does the same. Albertson got 10th at Boston. People who do that well either know what they're doing or have a coach who does. Doesn't mean they couldn't do better but that level of accomplishment merits a fair measure of respect.
Just about all of Renato Canova's athletes do a 40k run at 95% marathon pace , roughly 3-4 weeks before their goal marathon. Oh, and did I mention that they do it at altitude?
I doubt you're willing to argue that his athletes don't run successful marathons.
95% is what, a 2:04 marathon? Is this the result we should expect at Boston?
Just about all of Renato Canova's athletes do a 40k run at 95% marathon pace , roughly 3-4 weeks before their goal marathon. Oh, and did I mention that they do it at altitude?
I doubt you're willing to argue that his athletes don't run successful marathons.
Unless his philosophy changed, the 40K run is at 92% of MP. It's a pretty significant difference, and one you could see in Wanders' shorter run at more conservative pace vs. CJ's longer and more aggressive pacing. Anyhow, I wish him success and he seems Yuki-esque in his ability to run hard and recover quickly. Let's hope he holds back in Boston.
Being great at downhills (as he says he is) cuts both ways in that he can run easily on them and then have more left for the second half of the race as opposed to running even effort building up a solo lead and then getting rolled in the middle of the race like last year.
Come on, this was much more flat than downhill, elevation gain over the entire marathon was 656 ft. It was a solid run. Hope he recovers fully before Boston. Fun to watch.
I'm not having a go, but it was a gentle downhill for 18.5 miles and net downhill overall. 2:10 for a training run is crazy
High Hopes' objection must be that he didn't do it in Nikes. It starts and finishes at the same place. The whole area is pool-table flat. Did he miss timing mats? Maybe. Did he pull a Rosie Ruiz/Mike Rossi? Maybe. Is he juiced on EPO? Maybe. But he DID NOT find a downhill course for this. That is one thing he didn't do. He found one to run in April, but this is simply not one.
So the local guy who’s been running for two years, never on a team but hired a coach six months ago…. Who is now a coach himself after reading Daniels once and completing VDOT certification…. Is not a good guy to hire as a coach?
So the local guy who’s been running for two years, never on a team but hired a coach six months ago…. Who is now a coach himself after reading Daniels once and completing VDOT certification…. Is not a good guy to hire as a coach?
It would depend on the guy of course, you've got the odd Peter Coe, but he'd probably not be my choice. If this guy presumed to know more about the sport than someone who's qualified for an Olympic trial, placed well in a major race or two, has nationally ranked times, or who has coached others who've accomplished things like this, not at all.
Yeah why do people just assume downhill like he went and did this at CIM or something?
By the way, CIM is net downhill but with the overall profile of up and down, it would be faster if it were flat. You don’t gain as much on downhills as you lose on uphills..
Just about all of Renato Canova's athletes do a 40k run at 95% marathon pace , roughly 3-4 weeks before their goal marathon. Oh, and did I mention that they do it at altitude?
I doubt you're willing to argue that his athletes don't run successful marathons.
95% is what, a 2:04 marathon? Is this the result we should expect at Boston?
Just about all of Renato Canova's athletes do a 40k run at 95% marathon pace , roughly 3-4 weeks before their goal marathon. Oh, and did I mention that they do it at altitude?
I doubt you're willing to argue that his athletes don't run successful marathons.
Unless his philosophy changed, the 40K run is at 92% of MP. It's a pretty significant difference, and one you could see in Wanders' shorter run at more conservative pace vs. CJ's longer and more aggressive pacing. Anyhow, I wish him success and he seems Yuki-esque in his ability to run hard and recover quickly. Let's hope he holds back in Boston.
Being great at downhills (as he says he is) cuts both ways in that he can run easily on them and then have more left for the second half of the race as opposed to running even effort building up a solo lead and then getting rolled in the middle of the race like last year.
Sure, I'll give you 92% (though I think you're splitting hairs).
But 92% marathon pace at altitude and over rolling hills is somewhat comparable to 95% marathon pace.
The point is still the same, that doing a marathon distance effort (or just slightly below) at slightly slower than marathon pace is not unprecedented. In fact, it's an essential workout of the most successful marathon coach in the world.
In my opinion, anyone who claims that this kind of training is ill-informed and counterproductive, hasn't been keeping up with the sport.
Sure, it may be risky for some, but it's damn effective for many others.
LOL give me a break with the “CIM has rolling hills”. Not a single mile with over 35 ft of elevation gain the whole race and none with over 20 ft in the second half.
I see you didn’t mention the actual total numbers, but it’s ok, I have them. ( you can look it up at the race website too). CIM is 681 feet up and 1,017 feet down. But the weather is often close to perfect.
“A week after running 3:04:16 at the Tokyo Marathon, the fastest-ever by a 63-yr-old woman, 60+ WR holder Mariko Yugeta crushed that with a 2:58:40 today in Nagoya.” ~March 13, 2022 @JRNHeadlines
Unless his philosophy changed, the 40K run is at 92% of MP. It's a pretty significant difference, and one you could see in Wanders' shorter run at more conservative pace vs. CJ's longer and more aggressive pacing. Anyhow, I wish him success and he seems Yuki-esque in his ability to run hard and recover quickly. Let's hope he holds back in Boston.
Being great at downhills (as he says he is) cuts both ways in that he can run easily on them and then have more left for the second half of the race as opposed to running even effort building up a solo lead and then getting rolled in the middle of the race like last year.
Sure, I'll give you 92% (though I think you're splitting hairs).
But 92% marathon pace at altitude and over rolling hills is somewhat comparable to 95% marathon pace.
The point is still the same, that doing a marathon distance effort (or just slightly below) at slightly slower than marathon pace is not unprecedented. In fact, it's an essential workout of the most successful marathon coach in the world.
In my opinion, anyone who claims that this kind of training is ill-informed and counterproductive, hasn't been keeping up with the sport.
Sure, it may be risky for some, but it's damn effective for many others.
I think Tunnel is right on. Or more accurately, Renato is. As someone who trains mostly on hilly routes at high altitude, I can tell you it is misleading to take Mosop's run 4 weeks out from 2011 Boston, for example, do the math the way Canova does, and says it was _% of the pace he ended up at in Boston
The altitude and hills - and in many cases, dirt roads - combine to slow one down significantly compared to running at the same heart rate, blood lactate level, and subjective effort on a flat, sea level, paved road. There was a thread where Canova suggested that heavy trainers (this was pre- anything 'super', so he means as opposed to traditional road flats), hills, altitude, and dirt combined were worth 6 seconds per km or 10 per mile.
I won't look up any of those day-to-day threads right now, but what Tunnel suggests is exactly right - there are long runs close to 95% of goal pace about a month out, but maybe 92 or 93. Easily 95% of effort considering the informal conversion Renato believes to be reasonably accurate.
Sure, I'll give you 92% (though I think you're splitting hairs).
But 92% marathon pace at altitude and over rolling hills is somewhat comparable to 95% marathon pace.
The point is still the same, that doing a marathon distance effort (or just slightly below) at slightly slower than marathon pace is not unprecedented. In fact, it's an essential workout of the most successful marathon coach in the world.
In my opinion, anyone who claims that this kind of training is ill-informed and counterproductive, hasn't been keeping up with the sport.
Sure, it may be risky for some, but it's damn effective for many others.
Fair response. No idea if Canova adjusts for altitude/terrain slightly (to be fair altitude is less of a factor with most of his athletes), but that would surprise me if he didn’t. I think the critique on CJ is that most will say the effort is more like 97% and may hinder his Boston effort. If he ran a 40K at 5:05 pace and then cruised in at 7’ pace for 2.2k I for a 2:14 or whatever that’d be, I don’t think he’d get much blowback. Only he will know how hard this effort was relative to his best.
Just about all of Renato Canova's athletes do a 40k run at 95% marathon pace , roughly 3-4 weeks before their goal marathon. Oh, and did I mention that they do it at altitude?
I doubt you're willing to argue that his athletes don't run successful marathons.
Unless his philosophy changed, the 40K run is at 92% of MP. It's a pretty significant difference, and one you could see in Wanders' shorter run at more conservative pace vs. CJ's longer and more aggressive pacing
At 7000 ft altitude on dirt roads it's pretty close to a race effort
