Ryun ran 3:56 on old school cinder in high school. 3:55 on grasstex, which was an asphalt composite track in high school that was a mess . Then set the world record (3:51) on old school cinders.
If you think that's equivalent to modern synthetic, and are going to make that argument, go for it.
Add in modern spikes (1%) and you've got the necessary conversion.
1) Jim Ryun never ran 3:56 (I am not sure where you got this at all) in high school. He ran 3:59, 3:58, and 3:55. The first two were on cinders. The last was on a synthetic track.
Now that we've established the track was not cinders, why would you say the Grasstex track was a mess?
Does that look like a horrible beat up track in any one of these sources?
That being said, let's say there's a 1.5% conversion for the track. Your link states that there's a 1.5% conversion from cinders to a modern synthetic track.
Jim Ryun's 3:55 record is outright not on cinders, so let's take his 3:58. A 1.5% conversion cuts off about 3.5 seconds, which brings him down to 3:54.5, on a modern synthetic track. Even if we take his 3:55, it gets him down to 3:51.5 (except it wasn't actually run on cinders, so the conversion really doesn't apply)
The guy you're defending is claiming that Ryun would run 3:29. Even with both conversions you provided, how on Earth is Ryun running 3:29? Even if we cut off an additional 1% for modern spikes, we're nowhere close to the claimed time.
Ryun crushed Kip Keino in 1967 several times, once with 2:46.6 or so for his last 1200m. That was, I believe, in his 3:33.1 wr on a hot day in Southern California. Keino was not only just mediocre but great enough to run 3:34.8 1500m at 7,000 feet+ in Mexico City, an altitude time not beaten until the past decade. So, it's false that Ryun's competition was mediocre. He ran 1:44.3 WR/3:51.3 WR/8:25 (over Keino) at 19, so you can imagine what his high school 800 (880) and 2M times could have been the previous year when he beat Snell in 1965.
Did Kessler made a world team as a junior? Did Kessler beat the Olympic champion as a senior? How many American records did Kessler set in HS? Heck how many did he come with in 3s of?
Now he didn't run many 2 miles in HS. But that 825 as a junior still stands up pretty well today.
The year is still young. Drop a 352/820 outdoors and everyone will want to start carving a statue. Lose nationals in June? We might reconsider how great he is. At this point is he noticeably better than LV? Lots of personal judgement there. H
1) The world team was weak, because there was no true motivation to continue running after college. Amateur era and you couldn't get paid.
2) The talent pool across the world was pitifully weak. The East Africans, who have dominated the scene since they could get paid to run, were barely participating (again, because back then, they couldn't get paid).
3) American records were weak, because there was no true motivation to continue running after college. Amateur era and you couldn't get paid.
What part of crappy talent pool in the 1960s/70s is not understood?
Do you consider modern-day triathlon and swimming to be the equivalent of running in terms of depth? Obviously not. You would immediately say that the sports have a huge barrier of entry at the professional level as a consequence of the equipment needed, and as such, have much lower participation, and much shallower talent pools.
That's the same as running in the 1960s vs running in 2022. There was a VERY notable barrier to running at the professional level in the 1960s. You wouldn't be paid. As a result, the vast majority of good runners in the developed world would just run through high school and college, and then go on with their lives after that, and the vast majority of good runners in the developing world lacked the incentive to even run recreationally to begin with.
Sure Ryun beat some of the best runners in the world when he was in high school. These were guys who were either working full time jobs while training, or came from wealthy families who could afford to put their professional lives on hold for a while.
Skip the pros and the africians. How many college kids beat Ryun at the trials. How college kids crushed Kessler? Again we are talking about a person who finished 3rd at the Olympic trials and then won nationals the next year to someone who couldn't get through heats as a senior and who didn't even qualify as a junior.
To some extent we need another 5 years to put the new times in context. If we start seeing 3-4 359s every year and a 355 every 3, we are going to adjust our impression of what a fast time is.
Someone else mentioned Rupp. That 1337 is epic. But the rest of HS career is just really good. He might make the top 10 but not top 5.
1) The world team was weak, because there was no true motivation to continue running after college. Amateur era and you couldn't get paid.
2) The talent pool across the world was pitifully weak. The East Africans, who have dominated the scene since they could get paid to run, were barely participating (again, because back then, they couldn't get paid).
3) American records were weak, because there was no true motivation to continue running after college. Amateur era and you couldn't get paid.
What part of crappy talent pool in the 1960s/70s is not understood?
Do you consider modern-day triathlon and swimming to be the equivalent of running in terms of depth? Obviously not. You would immediately say that the sports have a huge barrier of entry at the professional level as a consequence of the equipment needed, and as such, have much lower participation, and much shallower talent pools.
That's the same as running in the 1960s vs running in 2022. There was a VERY notable barrier to running at the professional level in the 1960s. You wouldn't be paid. As a result, the vast majority of good runners in the developed world would just run through high school and college, and then go on with their lives after that, and the vast majority of good runners in the developing world lacked the incentive to even run recreationally to begin with.
Sure Ryun beat some of the best runners in the world when he was in high school. These were guys who were either working full time jobs while training, or came from wealthy families who could afford to put their professional lives on hold for a while.
Skip the pros and the africians. How many college kids beat Ryun at the trials. How college kids crushed Kessler? Again we are talking about a person who finished 3rd at the Olympic trials and then won nationals the next year to someone who couldn't get through heats as a senior and who didn't even qualify as a junior.
To some extent we need another 5 years to put the new times in context. If we start seeing 3-4 359s every year and a 355 every 3, we are going to adjust our impression of what a fast time is.
Someone else mentioned Rupp. That 1337 is epic. But the rest of HS career is just really good. He might make the top 10 but not top 5.
Objectively, Hobbs 3:34 is better than every all time great’s top performance. But, due to him not taking the sport seriously until 11th grade, and that year being lost to covid, he was never dominant.
In addition to trouncing both Webb and Hall at Foot Locker, Ritz won a bronze medal at the world junior cross country championships, and he finished 11th in the final of the men's 5,000 meters at the US track championships.
Until and unless Sahlman wins a medal at a world junior competition or finishes in the top 11 this summer at the USA track championships, he is not a better high school runner than Ritz.
On the Rushmore of HS distance running, you've gotta have Verzbicas and Sahlman at this point. The remaining two I could argue about.
You’re definitely rocking some recency bias here. I’m less taken with mile to 5k XC range than you seem to be. I doubt I’d put either of them on the Mt. Rushmore tbh, though of course Sahlman still has time to change that.
Ryun, Lindgren, Webb, Ritz - that’s a solid Mt. Rushmore of U.S. high school boys’ distance running.
+1
3:55 on a dirt track beating the wr holder and Olympic champion (Snell)
1:47 880 4x880 leg
21.5 220 leg in sprint medley
Not HS, but 8:25 AJR 2 mile beating Keino just barely after turning 19 as a freshman. Rarely ran the 2 mile in HS- was usually part of a double at bigger meets (ie Golden West). There was a crazy rule at one point that doubling above 880 was not allowed.
He once did a 10 mile relay as a HS junior with a teammate with both doing 20x440. He averaged 60 sec/rest being what his partner needed to run his 440.
You’re definitely rocking some recency bias here. I’m less taken with mile to 5k XC range than you seem to be. I doubt I’d put either of them on the Mt. Rushmore tbh, though of course Sahlman still has time to change that.
Ryun, Lindgren, Webb, Ritz - that’s a solid Mt. Rushmore of U.S. high school boys’ distance running.
+1
3:55 on a dirt track beating the wr holder and Olympic champion (Snell)
1:47 880 4x880 leg
21.5 220 leg in sprint medley
Not HS, but 8:25 AJR 2 mile beating Keino just barely after turning 19 as a freshman. Rarely ran the 2 mile in HS- was usually part of a double at bigger meets (ie Golden West). There was a crazy rule at one point that doubling above 880 was not allowed.
He once did a 10 mile relay as a HS junior with a teammate with both doing 20x440. He averaged 60 sec/rest being what his partner needed to run his 440.
The mile was in San Diego (3:55.3- wr at the time was 3:54.1), so was likely hard cinders. Should also add that the AR holder in the mile was also in the race. Imagine Sahlman holding off El G and peak Webb in a mile around 3:45. That’s what Ryun did.
3:55 on a dirt track beating the wr holder and Olympic champion (Snell)
1:47 880 4x880 leg
21.5 220 leg in sprint medley
Not HS, but 8:25 AJR 2 mile beating Keino just barely after turning 19 as a freshman. Rarely ran the 2 mile in HS- was usually part of a double at bigger meets (ie Golden West). There was a crazy rule at one point that doubling above 880 was not allowed.
He once did a 10 mile relay as a HS junior with a teammate with both doing 20x440. He averaged 60 sec/rest being what his partner needed to run his 440.
The mile was in San Diego (3:55.3- wr at the time was 3:54.1), so was likely hard cinders. Should also add that the AR holder in the mile was also in the race. Imagine Sahlman holding off El G and peak Webb in a mile around 3:45. That’s what Ryun did.
3:55 was not on cinders. It was on a synthetic track.
But no one is really arguing that Ryun belongs on Rushmore, are they? I think we’re all on the same page there. The argument against would be that in HS he was focused on the 800/mile and his relative XC weakness (but I think that’s more because XC wasn’t really given the same attention back then — I think he was undefeated in XC his last 2 years).
Regardless of the Ryun-lovers and Ryun-haters, however, this thread was more about Sahlman to me. I think Verzbicas and Sahlman are the two best overall distance runners we have seen — 3:59/8:29 & 3x XC NC, 3:58/8:33 (so far) + 14:06 NR and NC just isn’t matched by anyone. There are a dozen milers around as good as Sahlman and Verzbicas, but none of them could match them in the 3000+. There are some XC runners that could run with them (or maybe beat them, e.g. Ches and Ritz) but none of them could match them in the shorter stuff. Overall those two just have the best resumes. Kessler might’ve come close if not for COVID but we’ll never know.
I understand running wasn't as deep in 1965, but Ryun beat the Olympic Gold and Silver Medalists from the years prior Olympics. And the American Record Holder. As a high school runner.
Ryun was among the best in the world in 1965.
The athletes some are pointing out, couldn't even qualify for NCAAs if they were allowed to compete. The 16th best guy in the NCAA is not better than Peter Snell, who ran 1:44 on grass 60 years ago.
There is no debate. Ryun is a clear #1. No one else is in his league.
Watch all races from the meet here: https://flosports.link/3JN1dVRColin Sahlman clocked a national record on Saturday, and the Newbury Park High School boys ...
Aside from Verzbicas and I suppose Fernandez, have we ever seen anyone with the range and dominance of Sahlman? 3:58, 8:33, 14:0X, clearly the best XC and 1500+ distance runner in the nation this year. He ran faster at Woodward than Nico, has a decent shot at the HSR for 2 miles outdoor, and may run 3:55 or so.
Ritz, Ches, and some others might have been superior XC runners, Webb, Ryun, Kessler and some others might have been superior track runners (both of those are maybes) but overall? I think Sahlman stands up there with anyone.
On the Rushmore of HS distance running, you've gotta have Verzbicas and Sahlman at this point. The remaining two I could argue about.
For me it’s Lindgren, Ryun, Webb, and Fernandez.
Fernandez’s age as a Senior was what most are as Juniors in HS. There would be no conversation about it if he was a HS senior when he ran 3:55 mile, 7:47 3k and 13:25 5k as an 18 year-old.
Big S is definitely getting in to conversation and by June he may be the one.
The GOAT of high school distance running is Jim Ryun, followed by Gerry Lindgren. No one else is even close. Jim Ryun was less than two seconds off the world record for the mile, and he beat a multiple Olympic Champion to do it.
Lindgren is so far above everyone else its not a joke. 8:40 2 mile on a 120 yard indoor track in his day + 13:40 cinder track + 4:04 as a jog fest. Nobody touched this guy unless it was on a WORLDWIDE stage.
Ritz, Vezbicas probably grab a spot up there with Rupp, Fernandez, Chapa, etc in the mix too. Unless Sahlaman has a monster outdoor season (Multiple High School records), he won't be in contention with these guys. A high schoo er would have to run 13:1X or 8:1x to be even comparable to Lindgren.
Lindgren should be either #1 or #2 to Ryun, no one else. Places 3-4 are a toss-up between Webb, Ritz, Verzbicas, Fisher, Hunter, and Sahlman
I'd give this a thousand up arrows if I could. You can't compare eras without looking at the context of the times. What Ryan and Lindgren did in HS compared to the world's best at the time is completely different than what any male HS distance runner in the past 40+ years has done.
The mile was in San Diego (3:55.3- wr at the time was 3:54.1), so was likely hard cinders. Should also add that the AR holder in the mile was also in the race. Imagine Sahlman holding off El G and peak Webb in a mile around 3:45. That’s what Ryun did.
3:55 was not on cinders. It was on a synthetic track.
But no one is really arguing that Ryun belongs on Rushmore, are they? I think we’re all on the same page there. The argument against would be that in HS he was focused on the 800/mile and his relative XC weakness (but I think that’s more because XC wasn’t really given the same attention back then — I think he was undefeated in XC his last 2 years).
Regardless of the Ryun-lovers and Ryun-haters, however, this thread was more about Sahlman to me. I think Verzbicas and Sahlman are the two best overall distance runners we have seen — 3:59/8:29 & 3x XC NC, 3:58/8:33 (so far) + 14:06 NR and NC just isn’t matched by anyone. There are a dozen milers around as good as Sahlman and Verzbicas, but none of them could match them in the 3000+. There are some XC runners that could run with them (or maybe beat them, e.g. Ches and Ritz) but none of them could match them in the shorter stuff. Overall those two just have the best resumes. Kessler might’ve come close if not for COVID but we’ll never know.
Saying none of them can match Sahlman is a bit of stretch. If we put Colin in a race with German, Webb, Hobbs etc. I think he loses to all at this point. And I think he really good.
The nuances to this conversation are that a guy like Webb could’ve run 8:25 in HS, but could also run 47 & 1:47. So the 2 mile wasn’t really on his radar.
Hobbs jogged an 8:39 with a 25.0 last 200. But he was busy trying to make the Olympics.
The benefit the NP has is that every race they run is essentially a PR attempt. They want their names in the record books whereas other dudes just won races.
My rankings are based of what I think would happen in a race.
1. Webb 2. GF 3. Kessler 4. Nico 5. LV 6. Sahlman 7. Rupp 8. Hunter 9. Nelson 10. Centro
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