What would Daniel Komen and El G have run in super spikes?

I’m kind of out of the loop lately, but don’t each of the major shoe manufacturers now have a carbon plated super shoe?

If they are not faster, why would so many companies have quite similar designs?

Is this really all just smoke and mirrors?

To reference a previous post….the OG Jasari was amazing. I never had my own pair but gawked at the guys who did.

I do believe they are faster, but not by 5 - 8 seconds over 3000 m at the very top (see thread topic). If they were, the very top would have improved like the top 100 average (or slightly less because of reduced doping since 2009). Salvitore expressed a few thoughts on the previous page as to why the very top improved less than the top 100.

Maybe somebody has the numbers to show the same data for the top 5, top 10, top 20, top 50 and top 100 to check whether there is a clear trend?

The most comical element of this is the narrative of "carbon plates" being some kind of magical elixir powering these unfathomable times. In 1989, yes you read that correctly, 1989, Brooks had a shoe called the Fusion that not only had a carbon fiber plate sandwiched between midsole foam, but a curved carbon fiber plate which is allegedly the magic design feature of said plates

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Fila had carbon fiber plates, adidas too - all around the turn of the millennium. Even funnier is that today the plates aren't even carbon fiber as we would think it (fibrous "layers" but just injected nylon with basically pencil lead shavings in it (fine carbon fiber). And let's not act like it's new in track spikes either. Almost all brands experimented with carbon fiber plates - purely because of stiffness to weight ratio. They aren't springs, they aren't mechanically self loading and releasing. Not a lot of magic.

Magic is the foam - incredible cushioning without any weight or peak force compromising, and yeah, all brands have by in large the same access to the same suppliers that make the same sh-t.

Draw your own conclusion from that.

2021 is the fastest year ever by 3 seconds (top 100) for men’s 3000m. 2022 is the third fastest by .2. The second fastest year was 2018. Average for ‘21 and ‘22 is 7:42. Average for previous 10 years is 7:47. Of course we need more years to see if this is a trend or anomaly (like 2018) but I bet we will see similar times in the upcoming years. The shoes, on average, are worth 5 seconds in a elite world class 3000m. Just because someone hasn’t run 7:15 doesn’t mean the aren’t. If Komen were still running like he did in the late 90s he would.

I mean dude you are right on. There are two obvious correlations which are distance of race and surface of race (ie. track vs road) and the "benefit" isn't simply linear.

Someone else made a great point that I jumped on which was related to better athletes being naturally/inherently more efficient anyway (especially in distance running which is arguably the most important factor at play anyway) and how these shoes - both track and road are all about efficiency improvements and not direct increasing of ceiling potential/ability. Better runners simply fatigue themselves less and it's not just aerobic power. Their movement/posture/gait is all more efficient anyway and they recover faster because of it too. This to me would suggest that at the absolute pinnacles of human athletic talent right now, product that improves running efficiency simply has a far smaller impact on these athletes than even other runners who are considered outlier elites in terms of the greater human race (think a 12.40 runner vs a 13.10 runner).

I smile about the marathon which is the event everyone points to as the example of "cheater" shoes at play. Yet the reality is only 4 men have ever run faster than Dennis Kimetto did in "not naughty boy cheater shoes" and two of those 4 are within 10 seconds of it! Not only that, the two guys who really are well ahead of Kimettos performance are the worlds best and greatest marathon runner ever who was an elite track talent (Kipchoge) and the worlds best and greatest overall distance runner ever (Bekele). You can't convince me that Kipchoge in a pair of old adios's - same as what Kimetto wore, wouldn't have run sub 2.02 anyway given the same amount of dedication and focus as he's had in the last 6-7 years.

If people don't think they new product helps they are delusional. But not as delusional as the people that think that the current human race pinnacle athletic performances at certain distance would be outrageously faster (like 8 seconds over 3000m) than they are now just because of a new foam in their shoes.

That is pure speculation. There is nothing to support it. The fact that Komen and El G are still far faster than any runner today suggests shoes are not the factor that many here think.

For the semi-literate here, I am not saying the shoes have no effect but that it is marginal at the very top - as has been explained more comprehensively by other posters with more detailed knowledge of shoe technology.

You have to factor in the long term decline in East African - and especially Kenyan - intrinsic times that are due to better doping controls. Of course it's been masked a little by both the shoes and the no testing during the pandemic.

This is dependent on the belief that 'everybody' is still doping, just at a slightly reduced extent. Clearly full throttle EPO is worth more than 1 second per mile over today (even if you assume that the likes of Jakob and Jake Wightman are taking EPO, which is a massive unwarranted assumption on your part based upon an anonymous survey which found that 30% of Arab athletes were doping).

3 guys ran 3:26 in a year or two of each other, and only one person since in the next 20 years, who subsequently got busted for EPO. Yes, full throttle EPO gives you more than 1 second per mile.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaahhahahahahahahahahahahahha

Aged well.

Apart from the mens 2022 world 1500m title and womens 800m Silver and 1500m Bronze

86.7% longer distance is effected 700% more by the same improvement - nonsense.

The shoes may give a second a mile (for some) but, yes, EPO will give a lot more. And if not EPO, there are other things they can take - as the Kenyans are showing us.

And of course Houlihan.

Exactly my point, and the current and past 1500 m best times support it.

If you still think shoes are not a major difference maker there is no help for you.
There is so much money being dropped into shoe technology now we are just at the tip of the iceberg.