Time will tell. Will NB talent phase out in 2-3 years? Or is there a system that will produce consistently for the foreseeable future?
Time will tell. Will NB talent phase out in 2-3 years? Or is there a system that will produce consistently for the foreseeable future?
*NP
harlinsdaler wrote:
Time will tell. Will NB talent phase out in 2-3 years? Or is there a system that will produce consistently for the foreseeable future?
It's not a system, it's a group of kids. Look at the roster beyond the 2023 class and who looks like they even have a hail Mary chance of being close to 9:00? Maybe Doshi? Then who? Unless he recruits a handful of the top tier runners, it's not looking promising. The current group were world beaters as freshman. Both Youngs, both Sahlmans and Cantu were all faster as freshmen than Doshi is as a sophomore. Who looks even remotely capable of 9:00 as seniors? Jonah Sloan, Nathan Porter, Jack Watson or Arnav Shetty? That crew looks to more of the lucky to get close to 9:30 crowd.
We’ve all read Once A Runner. John L. Parker has a quote from Frank Shorter in the opening pages. “How do I know you ran the mile in 4:30 in high school? Easy, everyone ran the mile in 4:30 in high school”.
Runner10287 wrote:
We’ve all read Once A Runner. John L. Parker has a quote from Frank Shorter in the opening pages. “How do I know you ran the mile in 4:30 in high school? Easy, everyone ran the mile in 4:30 in high school”.
Did he follow it up with, “if you didn’t, you’re slow”?
Coach has to remember where he coaches. They are privileged HS kids who he coaches. A 4:20 under privilege kid is a 4:10 at his HS.
I wonder how their other boys feel about the shirt? I just checked their results last year and 6 of them ran under 4:20 and 14 ran 4:20 or slower as their season best.
samuel L jackson wrote:
Runner10287 wrote:
We’ve all read Once A Runner. John L. Parker has a quote from Frank Shorter in the opening pages. “How do I know you ran the mile in 4:30 in high school? Easy, everyone ran the mile in 4:30 in high school”.
Did he follow it up with, “if you didn’t, you’re slow”?
What’s wrong with looking to improve?
samuel L jackson wrote:
Runner10287 wrote:
We’ve all read Once A Runner. John L. Parker has a quote from Frank Shorter in the opening pages. “How do I know you ran the mile in 4:30 in high school? Easy, everyone ran the mile in 4:30 in high school”.
Did he follow it up with, “if you didn’t, you’re slow”?
What’s wrong with looking to improve?
Quakers Oats wrote:
harlinsdaler wrote:
Time will tell. Will NB talent phase out in 2-3 years? Or is there a system that will produce consistently for the foreseeable future?
It's not a system, it's a group of kids. Look at the roster beyond the 2023 class and who looks like they even have a hail Mary chance of being close to 9:00? Maybe Doshi? Then who? Unless he recruits a handful of the top tier runners, it's not looking promising. The current group were world beaters as freshman. Both Youngs, both Sahlmans and Cantu were all faster as freshmen than Doshi is as a sophomore. Who looks even remotely capable of 9:00 as seniors? Jonah Sloan, Nathan Porter, Jack Watson or Arnav Shetty? That crew looks to more of the lucky to get close to 9:30 crowd.
My theory is that he held off on the recruitment he was doing so he could take a pro or college job after the Youngs graduate
To me, it's like walking around with a shirt that says "Calculus isn't that hard." For a lot of people, that's objectively true - it's just not that big a deal. And for the nerds in the math club, that slogan may even be motivational, and part of their culture of tackling tough intellectual problems rather than just coasting through high school.
But as they strut through the hallways of their high school, there will also be some kids who think "What a bunch of pricks." Those kids may be perfectly good students in other subjects, but struggle with math. Having someone else rub their nose in how easy calculus is for them doesn't feel good.
Is it a free country? Sure. You can wear that kind of shirt if you want. Are there some people for whom the pleasure of wearing such a shirt outweighs the fact that it makes other people feel like crap? Sure. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to be like that, and I hope my kids never are either. There are ways of building yourself up that don't involve putting other people down.
I think its kind of a jerk thing to wear. I don't know the context for him but I also get that the quality of times has changed dramatically over the past 20 years. In 05 when I ran 9:40 in the two-mile as a high school sophomore that was one the better times in my area and got me into the top heats of Norcal meet of champs. Now I don't know if that time would get you into the Frosh-Soph heat at the same meet of champs. Anything sub 4:20 at that time made you a solid D1 recruit. You need to be significantly faster now to be a quality D1 recruit.
So I get as a high school coach that is in poor taste. Especially in a sport that is no cut for most schools. At the same time, I do get really sick of the participation trophy crowd. I think it's fine to have fun and not be a great runner in high school but we don't need to pretend that the 4:30 miler who tries really hard is great. You can walk that line of not indulging the participation trophy crowd without also being mean and saying you suck if you are below this level.
what a joke smh wrote:
How many high school kids work their butts off to break 4:30 in the mile? And now you’re just diminishing their accomplishment?
Just irks me. Some kids don’t develop until after high school and it shouldn’t be frowned upon. You wanna keep the kids in the sport and hey some special things can happen in college and beyond. Don’t tell them they’re slow in high school.
What is "fast" now, a participation trophy? Someone should be considered fast just because they worked hard?
Fast is pretty relative to who you race against. Brosnan wants his kids trying to be "fast" relative to the highest level of (reasonable) competition available to them, which is going to be at the California State Meet and any national post-season races they do - and to be "fast" in either of those contexts, you better be running well under 4:20.
And for the record, I ran 4:22 in high school, and I don't consider it fast because I was trying to be competitive at the state level, and I didn't even score points at the state meet. But that inspired me to keep working and continue to improve, and that's part of Brosnan's goal, too.
Snowflake nation 99 wrote:
mid d dude wrote:
Brosnan's logic doesn't even make sense ... Once you acheive a goal, you set new goals. When I started running, I thought a 16:40 5k was fast ... then when I ran 15:40, I shot for sub 15, then when I was running mid 14s, I shot for sub 14 etc...
I'm sure some of his kids will never run sub 4:20, and some will run sub 4. Seems like a cycle setting realistic intermediate goals, achieving them and then moving up is smarter than just saying "4;20 is slow ....", but it doesn't get as much attention, which is what he seems to want ...
His logic makes complete sense. He had the best cross country team ever in HS history and they are one of the best girls teams in the country.
It's a mentality and that's why the kids love it and nothing more. All the haters just need to focus on coaching and running and doing great things.
If this bothers you it's sad. Brosnan didn't make this quote known. It was highlighted in a HD runners video and the kids loved it and picked top on it. They are just giving the kids what they asked for and wanted. Lots of people like winners and greatness. The people to cry about it will always be complaining about something new every week of their life.
Remember Brosnan said in an interview it's not saying 4:20 is slow, it's saying to yourself you can do something and the only way to do that is believe. If you believe 4:20's not fast then it wont be. It's not about the time 4:20, but the way you think. I might of messed up his words a little, but thats exactly what he was saying when asked about it.
It doesn't bother me at all - I'm simply saying he said it for attention more than anything else, and there is little motivational value in a blanket saying an objectively strong time (competitive at the state level in nearly every state) for a high school is slow. It's a controversial statement, so of course it will generate discussion. Now, I know the Brosnan is a very successful and smart coach, and with context it makes sense when he does deeper, explains that it applies to his top athletes and says when that 4:20 isn't fast for his 8:50 athletes in the following video.
However I still believe simply saying "4:20 isn't fast" like he did originally was to stir up some controversy and garner attention, as there are other ways to explain how to set ambitious goals. Anyways, thanks for adding some context to it!
desperado wrote:
To me, it's like walking around with a shirt that says "Calculus isn't that hard." For a lot of people, that's objectively true - it's just not that big a deal. And for the nerds in the math club, that slogan may even be motivational, and part of their culture of tackling tough intellectual problems rather than just coasting through high school.
But as they strut through the hallways of their high school, there will also be some kids who think "What a bunch of pricks." Those kids may be perfectly good students in other subjects, but struggle with math. Having someone else rub their nose in how easy calculus is for them doesn't feel good.
Is it a free country? Sure. You can wear that kind of shirt if you want. Are there some people for whom the pleasure of wearing such a shirt outweighs the fact that it makes other people feel like crap? Sure. But I sure as heck wouldn't want to be like that, and I hope my kids never are either. There are ways of building yourself up that don't involve putting other people down.
I like this comparison, and you're right, some kids in that analogy would think they're pricks, but those kids who think that way probably aren't very humble. If you're bad at math, you know it, but that doesn't mean you should just accept that you're bad. Do what you can and just understand that for people who are naturally good at math, calculus isn't hard.
In running, do what you can, but understand the fact that 4:20 to good runners isn't fast, so you shouldn't be satisfied and think you're a hotshot just because you might be some 4:2x or 4:3x miler who smokes everyone else on your mediocre team. Get even better if you're serious and come to terms with reality. 4:20 isn't impressive for serious runners with some talent. It's just not.
And if you're not talented enough to run 4:20 (which by no means should be assumed as early as high school), okay, I'm sorry, but that doesn't change the standard. We shouldn't sugarcoat things.
what a joke smh wrote:
How many high school kids work their butts off to break 4:30 in the mile? And now you’re just diminishing their accomplishment?
Just irks me. Some kids don’t develop until after high school and it shouldn’t be frowned upon. You wanna keep the kids in the sport and hey some special things can happen in college and beyond. Don’t tell them they’re slow in high school.
I’m sorry you’re slow and this hits so close to home for you.
coachy wrote:
I wonder how their other boys feel about the shirt? I just checked their results last year and 6 of them ran under 4:20 and 14 ran 4:20 or slower as their season best.
You can tell what they think by the size of his team, the lack of kids sticking it out for four years and the roster turn over. He's there to cater to the top kids and crap on the rest.
That is his job description. His job is to win.
I think my issue with it is more for the current runners in high school. I have no problem acknowledging I was a below average HS runner, but I'm not a teenager. I think a 16 year old may have more problems/confidence issues with it. Part of high school running is kids working really hard and running to the best of their ability even though they may not necessarily be fast (notwithstanding improvement in college/post-college). It has to be a hit to your self-esteem when your 15 and your coach is selling t-shirts saying a time beyond your best ability isn't fast.
I struggled to barely break 5 lol. Trained my ass off for years. Genetics can be a btch