Highschool Cross Country all-stars race by decade Footlocker style, which decade wins?

GF> wrote:

Heartless wrote:

Fernandez (if 100%)

As if Fernandez is the only runner who needs to be "100%", lol.

German Fernandez is a better XC runner than Nico Young at their respective bests (a given for this scenario). You know this, I know this, we all know this.

It was necessary to note the “100%”, because he was the only person I put in the top 5 and 10 that did not win a national title. Actually winning the title should carry a ton of weight. I know, I know, he was sick.

His potential was wild, however. And he was VERY young in his grade (turned 17 in late fall of senior year). Imagine what he would’ve done as a senior if his parents would’ve waited a year to put him in school.

Could’ve been something close to the 3:56 / 7:47i / 13:25 level he ran as an 18 year old freshman at OSU!! Unreal.

I’m a great GF fan, but you’re off topic. Decade high school team is the topic. Not individuals or what they did after high school.

Also Chapa was the class of 1976 not 1975.

Yeah- the top 5 and 6-10 seem to be pretty solid, respectively. These are the legends, with both the big hardware and the best times… AND very few excuses.

11-20 could be shuffled on any given day. Fisher was a 2X FLN champion, 2X indoor Mile, and 2X outdoor Mile champion. These achievements carry a lot of weight. He WON for two years straight. But his FLN times were the slowest of the dual winners. He seemed to always just run to win (which was probably a good strategy since he was relatively under-trained compared to his elite HS peers). His 2nd year he looked like he was jogging until 800m to go, where he promptly blasted the field and won by ~10 sec going away. He certainly could’ve gone faster than the 15:03 he ran that day. Yes, Hunter ran 14:55 the following year. But he went out real fast like he was going for the CR, and then looked like dogshiit the 2nd half of the race. So for HS CC only, I can’t give Hunter the nod over Fisher. HS track would be a different story.

Heartless wrote:

It was necessary to note the “100%”, because he was the only person I put in the top 5 and 10 that did not win a national title.

I get this -- I really do.

But I think -- even for the national championship -- you can't put too much weight on a single race. German was historically great before Footlocker (14:24 obviously, but also a dominate win at FL West over Luke Puskedra) and even better after.

I've seen a lot of talk (deservedly so) about Dathan's post-season success at World XC, but what about German's post season?

On February 16, 2008, at 17 years & 3 months, he won the U.S. Junior Cross Country title over collegiate runners. Here's a little reminder:

That runner he out-kicked? That's Ryan Sheridan of Iona College (an All-American in XC).

NICE clip! Did he go on to run Worlds that year?

I believe he won US Juniors again (at 18 years, 3 months) the following year while at OSU… while in 3:55/7:47 shape indoors… and then went on to finish 11th at Worlds. And this was while dealing with an injury that had him in a boot for a few weeks, including on that trip!

Heartless wrote:NICE clip! Did he go on to run Worlds that year?

I believe he won US Juniors again (at 18 years, 3 months) the following year while at OSU… while in 3:55/7:47 shape indoors… and then went on to finish 11th at Worlds. And this was while dealing with an injury that had him in a boot for a few weeks, including on that trip!

Yes, 25th place (first for the U.S.). It was a "disappointing" result at the time, but, for context, the race was won by Ibrahim Jeilan and 18th was freaking Dejen Gebremeskel.

1. 2010- 32

2. 2000 - 40

3. 2020 - 54

I ranked the top 30 all time (and took out the 60-90s because they didn’t have enough scorers to field a team) and then scored it as a meet and here were my results

Scores

1 00 Ritz

2 10 Nico young

3 10 lv

3 00 lv (same person but ran in both eras)

4 00 Solinsky

5 20 Sahlman

6 00 Fernandez

7 20 Leo young

8 10 Hunter

910 fisher

10 10 ches

11 20 Lex young

12 20 Hough

13 10 Methner

14 00 Rupp

15 10 Sprout

16 00 Derrick

17 00 Withrow

18 00 Fout

19 20 Bergen

20 10 Daschbach

Others from different eras not listed because they didn’t score as a team.

2020 will almost certainly take over as number 1 eventually. At this rate it may not take too long either.

Saratoga '04, Gig Harbor '13-14', Greenwich HS '17-Now, SPIRE IA for the foreseeable future.

Best,

Cazzy

If youre going to put Nico Young that high you might as well put Sahlman and Fernandez above him. They all ran the same state course

I don't get the love for Nico Young. Must just be recency bias. I give him the nod over German Fernandez because he crushed nationals and German choked, but guys like Solinsky, Verzbicas, and Cheserek were clearly above Nico in every regard. Solinsky dominated his nationals, Verzbicas and Ches were both 2x champions and unbeatable for 2 years apiece, Ches challenged Verzbicas when Verz was a senior and Ches was a sophomore, etc.

But all guys are faster today.

Hahaaha you are wrong in your assessment. You truly don’t know high school cross country history and how truly great those guys were,

To exclude a 13:44. 13:52, 13;58 5k guys, 28:32 , 28;55 and 29:06 10 k guys from a 5k cross county race, which requires strength then you are totally ignorant and don’t really don’t understand how truly great those 60’s and 70’s guys were. Or for some own known reason refuse to acknowledge their greatness.

birdbeard wrote:

I don't get the love for Nico Young. Must just be recency bias. I give him the nod over German Fernandez because he crushed nationals and German choked, but guys like Solinsky, Verzbicas, and Cheserek were clearly above Nico in every regard. Solinsky dominated his nationals, Verzbicas and Ches were both 2x champions and unbeatable for 2 years apiece, Ches challenged Verzbicas when Verz was a senior and Ches was a sophomore, etc.

Here is why I feel the way I do about this.

2019 was THE strongest year in the history of prep xc in US (2021 was the second best and 2007 was third)

All you have to do is look at the xc and track PRs of the people that Nico crushed in this run linked above.

Cole Sprout 8:40 - 3200 m as a junior (8:48 sophomore)

Josh Methner - broke Craig Virgins legendary course record (sub 13:50 there)

Ryan Schoppe (soloed 14:16 5k earlier that season)

Matt Strangio, Evan Holland, and Caleb Brown also very elite and all well ahead of Ryan Hall and Alan Webb back in 2000.

He also beat a very strong Leo Daschbach earlier this season and ran the 3k indoor record just a few months later.

Many of those people you referenced were on my top 30 list (a few cracked the top 10) but the problem with each decade from the past is depth. You can’t find five guys from any of these eras which are even close to the greatness of the more recent generations.

recency bias? wrote:

Many of those people you referenced were on my top 30 list (a few cracked the top 10) but the problem with each decade from the past is depth. You can’t find five guys from any of these eras which are even close to the greatness of the more recent generations.

Depth?

1960s-

Jim Ryun, Marty Liquori, Gerry Lindgren, Steve Prefontaine, Tracy Smith, Kenny Moore, Gary Bjorkland, Dick Buerkle,

Jack Bacheler, Steve Stageburg.

And you guys are puting Drew Hunter on this list?

You lose all credibility.

Alternate Reality wrote:

recency bias? wrote:

Many of those people you referenced were on my top 30 list (a few cracked the top 10) but the problem with each decade from the past is depth. You can’t find five guys from any of these eras which are even close to the greatness of the more recent generations.

Depth?

1960s-

Jim Ryun, Marty Liquori, Gerry Lindgren, Steve Prefontaine, Tracy Smith, Kenny Moore, Gary Bjorkland, Dick Buerkle,

Jack Bacheler, Steve Stageburg.

And you guys are puting Drew Hunter on this list?

You lose all credibility.

Please list high school 2 mile PRs and see how they compare to Drew Hunter or really any of the athletes listed.

Only Prefontaine is close.

Ryun was a great middle distance runner but he was not a great high school xc runner. Liquors was much like Ryun.

Sorry meant to say only Prefontaine and Lindgren

recency bias? wrote:

Alternate Reality wrote:

Depth?

1960s-

Jim Ryun, Marty Liquori, Gerry Lindgren, Steve Prefontaine, Tracy Smith, Kenny Moore, Gary Bjorkland, Dick Buerkle,

Jack Bacheler, Steve Stageburg.

And you guys are puting Drew Hunter on this list?

You lose all credibility.

Please list high school 2 mile PRs and see how they compare to Drew Hunter or really any of the athletes listed.

Only Prefontaine is close.

Ryun was a great middle distance runner but he was not a great high school xc runner. Liquors was much like Ryun.

Liquori was a great high school XC runner. He set a course record at VCP that stood for 6 years. Also, keep in mind when comparing times with current runners that the 2 mile distance was not run that often until the mid-1960s. It was not even an event at the CA state meet until 1965.

Here are some other studs from the 1960s:

Mike Ryan (CA) - 2nd US prep under 9:00 in 1964 (after Lindgren). Went on to win NCAA XC title at VCP, where he set the collegiate record.

Rick Riley (WA) - ran the national high school 2-mile record time of 8:43.8 in 1966.

Others - Pete Romero (CA), Ruben Chappins (CA), Pete Randall (NY).

Also consider that the 1960s had 3 sub-4 milers (the 2020s have none) and that doesn’t even count Lindgren and Pre.

historical accuracy wrote:

[quote]recency bias? wrote:

[quote]Alternate Reality wrote:

[quote]recency bias? wrote:

Also consider that the 1960s had 3 sub-4 milers (the 2020s have none)

bro what? the 2020's have had literally one year for track so far, '21 indoor/outdoor and Hobbs Kessler broke 4 by 3 seconds, not to mention his 3:34 1500... have you been living under a rock??