In the early 1960s there were HS sprinters in the NY area that ran 2.5 miles under 15 minutes. I'm not shocked that an older more fit sprinter could run 18 for 5k. What would make it difficult now us that sprinters train differently than in the 60s, an era where they often did distance runs. Also FloJo ran 20:30 in a 5k
beingniceragain wrote:
As a sprinter this is 100% believable.
I was a very average university level (10.5) guy and right after uni ended I spent 3 months drinking my face off in Europe - came back home 10 lbs fatter - started jogging and hill running to lose weights and ran a 20 flat (had never run a 5k before) 12.5 laps at track.
A couple things here:
1 - 18 mins is actually really slow (I know a lot of guys here don’t run much faster but to an elite this is a super easy jog)
2- you’re discounting / no mention of other factors besides endurance and slow twitch fibers - like the strength of this guys legs and the efficiency of his stride!
3 - Again - 18 mins is VERY slow. As mentioned above this is a 27 second 200m. Even with only slow twitch fibers every elite distance runner could hit this , especially in off season or speed training sessions.
Anyway I have a sprinters perspective on this.
it is in no way unbelievable but it is not close to what is normal or expected. And every distance runner is well aware that 18:00 is a jog for elites. lol.
coach wrote:
In the early 1960s there were HS sprinters in the NY area that ran 2.5 miles under 15 minutes. I'm not shocked that an older more fit sprinter could run 18 for 5k. What would make it difficult now us that sprinters train differently than in the 60s, an era where they often did distance runs. Also FloJo ran 20:30 in a 5k
Big difference between HS sprinters and world class sprinters.
Plenty of HS sprinters have gone on to running longer distances when they were older.
carmine9 wrote:
coach wrote:
In the early 1960s there were HS sprinters in the NY area that ran 2.5 miles under 15 minutes. I'm not shocked that an older more fit sprinter could run 18 for 5k. What would make it difficult now us that sprinters train differently than in the 60s, an era where they often did distance runs. Also FloJo ran 20:30 in a 5k
Big difference between HS sprinters and world class sprinters.
Plenty of HS sprinters have gone on to running longer distances when they were older.
And some of these stud sprinters in the NY area became world class 200 and 400 meter runners. Maybe with today's training and pharmaceuticals they would have broken 10.
OozmaKappa wrote:
Thats not that fast, even for a sprinter. Everyone is just assuming that the faster the 100m the slower the 5k will be, and that that means his 9.77 correlates with like a 20+ minute 5k.
This.
As an old man, injured from years of sprinting, I could still do that.
5 k isn't that far. And its just jogging pace.
Kids are running the 18 minute pace. Not the 9.77. That's hard work
Finally, a thread I can contribute to.
Very short background, I am (was) a 10.09pb, FAT obviously and wind legal. On the world stage I was a total nobody but in a country with limited sprint talent, I was on the podium at 5 nationals and I semi'ed at a Commonwealth Games. Nothing of any real note but I was reasonably quick.
I can't believe the comparisons being made by some on here, especially those claiming to be sprinters themselves. 18 minutes being 'really slow' might be true of those who are 13 min runners, but 10.3 is 'really slow' to a sub 10 runner and I promise you, there's not a single mid or distance runner on the planet that could get within touching distance of that. It's honestly laughable to make that comparison.
After I retired I didn't run at all but I stayed in good shape through various other activities. A number of friends ran Parkruns regularly and I thought it would be fun to join in one day so I gave 5k a crack. With no concept of pacing, I didn't even make it to 1k before having to stop and vomit. It was excruciating. I don't remember what my first 'official' 5k time was but it would have been around the 30 minute mark and included numerous walk breaks. I'll point out I wasn't fat either, at 184cm and 72kg (6 foot, 160 pounds), I was light for a sprinter and I remain about that weight today.
Being totally embarrassed by my initial attempts, I decided to do some training and I gradually built my mileage up over the course of a year to about 35k a week (bit over 20mpw). I ran numerous 5k's in that time and NOT ONCE did I break 22 minutes, my best being 22 flat. And I wasn't taking it easy, after each time I felt like I was going to die. Yep, someone who was 0.03sec off going to the Olympics was getting windburn from 60 year old women and felt like my lungs were going to collapse while doing so. If someone was to post on here that they couldn't break 22 on 20mpw they'd be accused of being obese or a middle aged woman (or both), yet that was my 100% effort pace under 'race' conditions.
I shouldn't need to state the obvious but clearly I do, sprint speed has absolutely no carryover to distance running. A 10.5 runner saying they ran 20min (assuming that is true in the first instance) and implying a 9.77 runner would he able to smoke that is certifiably insane. Even my 10.09 is a universe away from 10.5, and 9.77 is an even bigger step again, trust me when I say that the physiology required to reach such speeds and the training involved, particularly for an athlete who is still very much active over that distance, is totally incompatible with even being able to jog a 5k at any speed, nevermind being able to knock out an 18 min run.
I will bet every last dollar I have that I have that Omurwa did not run 18 minutes. Either it was a guesstimate like someone else suggested, the course was short by a couple of K or he is just flat out lying. I'd go with option A. In fact, if anyone can provide verifiable proof that he did run 18 I'll make a $1000 donation to the charity of your chouce.
Sorry, I got Ferdinand's name wrong. I was just copying the OP title.
Subelitesprintguy, Were you as fast as Lee Evans or Tommie Smith? Do you doubt that Tommie Smith could break 19 in a 5k?
Lee Evans ran with the cross country team in the fall. On page 152 in the book The Last Protest: Lee Evan's in Mexico City it reads
"October 19, 1967: Ran 8 miles for time. I ran
Faster than anyone else with a time of 55:09. "
Lee Evan's wasn't a "100 meter runner" but was a sprinter. Tommie Smith was world class in LJ, 100, 200, and 400 even if he didnt run 9.77. If FloJo could run 20:30 he would break 19 and Lee Evans no doubt under 17.
I'm not particularly familiar with either, I'm not American and both are well before my time so while I've heard of both in passing, outside of looking at Wikipedia I can't add much.
Evans has a pb of 10.9 although his 200 is probably a better indicator of potential speed. 10.3 might be closer to the mark but as I stated above, that is snail-like in world class terms. Comparing his speed to a 9.77 guy is like comparing a 2:30 guy to Kipchoge, it's just not comparable. And his 8 mile time is still north of a 20min 5k anyway so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with that argument. A 10.3 (at best) guy (with a middle distance background no less) running a 20 min 5k equivalent? Yes that's impressive, but it just strengthens my argument that a 9.77 guys is NEVER going to be capable of 18min.
SubEliteSprintGuy wrote:
I'm not particularly familiar with either, I'm not American and both are well before my time so while I've heard of both in passing, outside of looking at Wikipedia I can't add much.
Evans has a pb of 10.9 although his 200 is probably a better indicator of potential speed. 10.3 might be closer to the mark but as I stated above, that is snail-like in world class terms. Comparing his speed to a 9.77 guy is like comparing a 2:30 guy to Kipchoge, it's just not comparable. And his 8 mile time is still north of a 20min 5k anyway so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with that argument. A 10.3 (at best) guy (with a middle distance background no less) running a 20 min 5k equivalent? Yes that's impressive, but it just strengthens my argument that a 9.77 guys is NEVER going to be capable of 18min.
wow. thank you for your great contributions to this thread, which make perfect sense considering the poor 800 efforts we have heard about or seen from the great 100 meter runners. I do think 18:xx is improbable for people of this speed, but if somebody told me a Michael Johnson ran around that time, I would believe them. And Michael Johnson was almost certainly a sub 10.00 peak runner, even if he never dropped it in a race.
but to go along with what you have been saying 9.9x is NOT 9.77
Yep, someone with a 400 pedigree like MJ, I'd be more inclined to believe it (I'd still have my suspicions though! Particularly as we've heard him talk about the 800 as though it was his worst nightmare lol).
And agree again, he had 9.9x speed but 9.77 is just so, so far beyond that. It's at a point where comparisons just can't be made. I'm as guilty as anyone in that I'm just speculating (with my n=1 experience) but until I see irrefutable evidence of the 18min 5k, I don't believe for a second that it occurred. And if it did, he may well be the greatest athlete to ever walk the earth.
Honestly his 23min 3k time that was posted earlier in the thread is about exactly where I'd expect him to land.
Pretty sure he mistyped 28min.
So it seems the Dubai Run wasn't even a timed event, it was a 'fitness challenge' with 146k people taking part. Gonna have to go with BS on this 18 minute claim I'm afraid.
This is by far the most likely explanation.
SubEliteSprintGuy wrote:
Finally, a thread I can contribute to.
Very short background, I am (was) a 10.09pb, FAT obviously and wind legal. On the world stage I was a total nobody but in a country with limited sprint talent, I was on the podium at 5 nationals and I semi'ed at a Commonwealth Games. Nothing of any real note but I was reasonably quick.
I can't believe the comparisons being made by some on here, especially those claiming to be sprinters themselves. 18 minutes being 'really slow' might be true of those who are 13 min runners, but 10.3 is 'really slow' to a sub 10 runner and I promise you, there's not a single mid or distance runner on the planet that could get within touching distance of that. It's honestly laughable to make that comparison.
After I retired I didn't run at all but I stayed in good shape through various other activities. A number of friends ran Parkruns regularly and I thought it would be fun to join in one day so I gave 5k a crack. With no concept of pacing, I didn't even make it to 1k before having to stop and vomit. It was excruciating. I don't remember what my first 'official' 5k time was but it would have been around the 30 minute mark and included numerous walk breaks. I'll point out I wasn't fat either, at 184cm and 72kg (6 foot, 160 pounds), I was light for a sprinter and I remain about that weight today.
Being totally embarrassed by my initial attempts, I decided to do some training and I gradually built my mileage up over the course of a year to about 35k a week (bit over 20mpw). I ran numerous 5k's in that time and NOT ONCE did I break 22 minutes, my best being 22 flat. And I wasn't taking it easy, after each time I felt like I was going to die. Yep, someone who was 0.03sec off going to the Olympics was getting windburn from 60 year old women and felt like my lungs were going to collapse while doing so. If someone was to post on here that they couldn't break 22 on 20mpw they'd be accused of being obese or a middle aged woman (or both), yet that was my 100% effort pace under 'race' conditions.
I shouldn't need to state the obvious but clearly I do, sprint speed has absolutely no carryover to distance running. A 10.5 runner saying they ran 20min (assuming that is true in the first instance) and implying a 9.77 runner would he able to smoke that is certifiably insane. Even my 10.09 is a universe away from 10.5, and 9.77 is an even bigger step again, trust me when I say that the physiology required to reach such speeds and the training involved, particularly for an athlete who is still very much active over that distance, is totally incompatible with even being able to jog a 5k at any speed, nevermind being able to knock out an 18 min run.
I will bet every last dollar I have that I have that Omurwa did not run 18 minutes. Either it was a guesstimate like someone else suggested, the course was short by a couple of K or he is just flat out lying. I'd go with option A. In fact, if anyone can provide verifiable proof that he did run 18 I'll make a $1000 donation to the charity of your chouce.
Love this post
SubEliteSprintGuy wrote:
Finally, a thread I can contribute to.
Very short background, I am (was) a 10.09pb, FAT obviously and wind legal. On the world stage I was a total nobody but in a country with limited sprint talent, I was on the podium at 5 nationals and I semi'ed at a Commonwealth Games. Nothing of any real note but I was reasonably quick.
I can't believe the comparisons being made by some on here, especially those claiming to be sprinters themselves. 18 minutes being 'really slow' might be true of those who are 13 min runners, but 10.3 is 'really slow' to a sub 10 runner and I promise you, there's not a single mid or distance runner on the planet that could get within touching distance of that. It's honestly laughable to make that comparison.
After I retired I didn't run at all but I stayed in good shape through various other activities. A number of friends ran Parkruns regularly and I thought it would be fun to join in one day so I gave 5k a crack. With no concept of pacing, I didn't even make it to 1k before having to stop and vomit. It was excruciating. I don't remember what my first 'official' 5k time was but it would have been around the 30 minute mark and included numerous walk breaks. I'll point out I wasn't fat either, at 184cm and 72kg (6 foot, 160 pounds), I was light for a sprinter and I remain about that weight today.
Being totally embarrassed by my initial attempts, I decided to do some training and I gradually built my mileage up over the course of a year to about 35k a week (bit over 20mpw). I ran numerous 5k's in that time and NOT ONCE did I break 22 minutes, my best being 22 flat. And I wasn't taking it easy, after each time I felt like I was going to die. Yep, someone who was 0.03sec off going to the Olympics was getting windburn from 60 year old women and felt like my lungs were going to collapse while doing so. If someone was to post on here that they couldn't break 22 on 20mpw they'd be accused of being obese or a middle aged woman (or both), yet that was my 100% effort pace under 'race' conditions.
I shouldn't need to state the obvious but clearly I do, sprint speed has absolutely no carryover to distance running. A 10.5 runner saying they ran 20min (assuming that is true in the first instance) and implying a 9.77 runner would he able to smoke that is certifiably insane. Even my 10.09 is a universe away from 10.5, and 9.77 is an even bigger step again, trust me when I say that the physiology required to reach such speeds and the training involved, particularly for an athlete who is still very much active over that distance, is totally incompatible with even being able to jog a 5k at any speed, nevermind being able to knock out an 18 min run.
I will bet every last dollar I have that I have that Omurwa did not run 18 minutes. Either it was a guesstimate like someone else suggested, the course was short by a couple of K or he is just flat out lying. I'd go with option A. In fact, if anyone can provide verifiable proof that he did run 18 I'll make a $1000 donation to the charity of your chouce.
You stated you have a wind legal 10.09 F.A.T. 100m. Very, very good! You made some absolute statements. You stated F. Omanyala cannot race sub-18 5K. I respect your opinion. He is not a light weight sprinter. Some 100m sprinters have height to weight ratio less than 2.25 pounds per inch. How much did you weigh when you competed? What is/was your height? Your height to weight ratio may shape your opinion. I do not know your name but if you are 5'10" 155 lbs., I do not believe you would doubt the ability of sub-10 100m men to race sub-18 5K. There are about a 1 1/2 dozen 10.09 men from a nation other than U.S. No one will try to doxx you or at least I hope not.
SubEliteSprintGuy wrote:
Finally, a thread I can contribute to.
Very short background, I am (was) a 10.09pb, FAT obviously and wind legal. On the world stage I was a total nobody but in a country with limited sprint talent, I was on the podium at 5 nationals and I semi'ed at a Commonwealth Games. Nothing of any real note but I was reasonably quick.
I can't believe the comparisons being made by some on here, especially those claiming to be sprinters themselves. 18 minutes being 'really slow' might be true of those who are 13 min runners, but 10.3 is 'really slow' to a sub 10 runner and I promise you, there's not a single mid or distance runner on the planet that could get within touching distance of that. It's honestly laughable to make that comparison.
After I retired I didn't run at all but I stayed in good shape through various other activities. A number of friends ran Parkruns regularly and I thought it would be fun to join in one day so I gave 5k a crack. With no concept of pacing, I didn't even make it to 1k before having to stop and vomit. It was excruciating. I don't remember what my first 'official' 5k time was but it would have been around the 30 minute mark and included numerous walk breaks. I'll point out I wasn't fat either, at 184cm and 72kg (6 foot, 160 pounds), I was light for a sprinter and I remain about that weight today.
Being totally embarrassed by my initial attempts, I decided to do some training and I gradually built my mileage up over the course of a year to about 35k a week (bit over 20mpw). I ran numerous 5k's in that time and NOT ONCE did I break 22 minutes, my best being 22 flat. And I wasn't taking it easy, after each time I felt like I was going to die. Yep, someone who was 0.03sec off going to the Olympics was getting windburn from 60 year old women and felt like my lungs were going to collapse while doing so. If someone was to post on here that they couldn't break 22 on 20mpw they'd be accused of being obese or a middle aged woman (or both), yet that was my 100% effort pace under 'race' conditions.
I shouldn't need to state the obvious but clearly I do, sprint speed has absolutely no carryover to distance running. A 10.5 runner saying they ran 20min (assuming that is true in the first instance) and implying a 9.77 runner would he able to smoke that is certifiably insane. Even my 10.09 is a universe away from 10.5, and 9.77 is an even bigger step again, trust me when I say that the physiology required to reach such speeds and the training involved, particularly for an athlete who is still very much active over that distance, is totally incompatible with even being able to jog a 5k at any speed, nevermind being able to knock out an 18 min run.
I will bet every last dollar I have that I have that Omurwa did not run 18 minutes. Either it was a guesstimate like someone else suggested, the course was short by a couple of K or he is just flat out lying. I'd go with option A. In fact, if anyone can provide verifiable proof that he did run 18 I'll make a $1000 donation to the charity of your chouce.
Great post!
Does anyone know Fanbulleh’s cross country times from high school? Just to add another data point.
high school xc coach wrote:
beingniceragain wrote:
As a sprinter this is 100% believable.
I was a very average university level (10.5) guy and right after uni ended I spent 3 months drinking my face off in Europe - came back home 10 lbs fatter - started jogging and hill running to lose weights and ran a 20 flat (had never run a 5k before) 12.5 laps at track.
A couple things here:
1 - 18 mins is actually really slow (I know a lot of guys here don’t run much faster but to an elite this is a super easy jog)
2- you’re discounting / no mention of other factors besides endurance and slow twitch fibers - like the strength of this guys legs and the efficiency of his stride!
3 - Again - 18 mins is VERY slow. As mentioned above this is a 27 second 200m. Even with only slow twitch fibers every elite distance runner could hit this , especially in off season or speed training sessions.
Anyway I have a sprinters perspective on this.
it is in no way unbelievable but it is not close to what is normal or expected. And every distance runner is well aware that 18:00 is a jog for elites. lol.
It seems he was not on the usual stuff for Kenyan distance runners.
Where is Sprintgeezer when we need him?
SLG wrote:
Where is Sprintgeezer when we need him?
The Geezer is likely going to chime in how easy it was for him to run 18 minutes as a Master despite being a sprinter.