I think Hoka is now 5 years behind in shoe Technology. They still rely on old EVA tech and do not have a supercritical or nitrogen infused midsole. The two high end racing shoes do not compete with Nike and ASICS in head to head studies.
I think Hoka is now 5 years behind in shoe Technology. They still rely on old EVA tech and do not have a supercritical or nitrogen infused midsole. The two high end racing shoes do not compete with Nike and ASICS in head to head studies.
allornone wrote:
The fastest man these days in Northern AZ wearing Hokas happens to be an ultra runner 😅
No, that would be Luis Grijalva, Hoka’s overall fastest athlete.
should be studying 102 wrote:
Bozangelas Montuckey wrote:
Maybe Rory needs to move up to ultra running.
No. Rory has wheels, he has run a really fast half marathon. I think he would find more success in the 15k-25k range of road races. I think this is the 3rd marathon where he didn't quite meet expectations. I think he might concede after this that he isn't a marathoner.
Rory rushed his first marathon (Canadian Champs). He should've done a build up with the team for their Atlanta trials and not raced just to get a feel for the training load. He needs a couple years of 100-120mpw
Baxter's marathon debut will be interesting
If I had to guess he will run 2:15-2:17 on New York based on his training load thus far. I'd love to see him do better but I don't see it out of him yet. Seems like Ben rushes his athlete's into marathons unprepared and they underwhelm more often than not. Matt's a great half guy, but his marathon training isn't there yet.
Moo G wrote:
Fauble's time is respectable. He performed just about at the expectation taking into consideration the warm weather. These guys simply are not sub 2:05 guys. They are US elites.
This. 2:13 was worth something faster yesterday. He's run 2:09 twice. This performance is in line with his Trials performance. Good but not as good as what he's capable of. This isn't some indictment on the group. He had a solid day. Tough weather. Strong fields. Third American.
well,, wrote:
frail martini wrote:
In what world are you living that only Americans care about golf or baseball?
Baseball is seen as a joke sport outside North America.
Tell that to Cuba, PR, DR, Venezuela, Japan, Korea, Taiwan…. And don’t change it to North America now. You’re an idiot.
Fun fact about the Boston Massacre - only 5 people died, three from the "massacre" and two later in the hospital
ghost of fred lebow wrote:
Baxter's marathon debut will be interesting
I wonder if this guy is genetically and mentally a marathoner. I guess we'll see. Maybe we'll see next year. A lot of 1st marathons are not great and they get better. Some choke #1 and never make it. I would say at least there's a chance that he can pull it off.
Anyway, not sure why the angry mob is generally torqued off at this group. They consistently outperform post-Flanagan BTC. Look at Derrick this past weekend. Nike fans will say the world's best coach and (by far) the world's best shoes somehow combined to underperform mediocre US runners with a terrible coach and (easily) the worst shoes. Pool-table flat course on his side too. Ditto the Trials. Where was the greatest team ever assembled, wearing the greatest shoes ever designed, then?
I don't blame Rosario or EVA for anything. I don't believe there's blame to place. How does NAZ stack up against Hanson's? Roots? Tinman? McKirdy? Are there threads mocking all of those? That last one races in Nike, so I suppose there's never going to be a thread blaming the shoes for their insignificance. None of those gangs are about to have a Trials winner anytime soon, least of all the only one completely Nike-shod. By the way, what about multiple threads to ridicule Jerry Himself? Consistently injures promising youngsters who are never heard from since. For every Scott Smith that Ben can't get 100% out of every single race while well into his 30s, there are a handful of German Fernandez type guys who, barely into their 20s, don't seem to equal their PBs again.
From where I stand, NAZ is doing something - or rather, a lot - right. Complete transparency about training. Now all of you know how NOT to train, if that's your takeaway. Rupp's reticence and unwilling speak to reporters like Gault does nothing for the running world of any of you personally. Fortunately, that was strictly Al's deal and he's interesting to listen to now. There are even comments on workouts.
There are few coaches as willing to let you examine - and perhaps mock - their every move as Ben. Canova is the only other I've read, but even he doesn't post every single day for years on end. We see specific buildups (Mosop 2011 Boston is one I've repeatedly viewed) but where were these guys training-wise for the previous year? I don't see much wrong with taking good but not world class runners and getting them into the top ten at Majors and USATF champs all while being completely transparent and without any hint - not from USADA, WADA, AIU, their former runners, their detractors, not anywhere - of drug use. I just don't see the problem.
Too many miles at marathon pace, too many grind it out workouts. If the workout is 16 miles at marathon pace and you are hands on knees exhausted at 14 and cut it short you weren't running marathon pace. Everything is push, push, push, nothing is smooth and under control. Group has also gotten too big.
hot take: the world's best coach (at least as far as performances and medals go, obviously not as far as being a nice friendly camp counselor of a guy) is Alberto Salazar. Look at Rupp. I wonder how much mike smith even trains Galen, I bet they talk on the phone a while with Galen mostly telling mike what he wants to do and then mike furiously scribbling down shreds of 2nd hand Alberto knowledge to use with his semi-pro team.
Alberto was the best for a reason. He was absolutely obsessive and neurotic with training. He left no stone unturned, and he sure as heck didn't juice his athletes with TESTABLE levels of anaboic steriod...
frail martini wrote:
well,, wrote:
Please, you´re using a sport that only Americans take seriously as an analogy?
In what world are you living that only Americans care about golf or baseball?
Golf, Baseball and Football. Many recreational runners have never heard of Hoka .
NAZed and confused wrote:
should be studying 102 wrote:
Ben Rosario seems like a really nice guy, I've heard great things about him.
Um, nope.
No, it's true. He's a great guy. Anyone who argues that is likely jealous.
well,, wrote:
frail martini wrote:
In what world are you living that only Americans care about golf or baseball?
Baseball is seen as a joke sport outside North America.
Nobody cares what the little foreigners think.
NAZed and confused wrote:
should be studying 102 wrote:
Ben Rosario seems like a really nice guy, I've heard great things about him.
Um, nope.
Yeah, anyone ever ask his Big River Running staff how they like him? I remember his exit being weirdly quiet
funny they try to show off a laid back style when they are really always pushing
Rosario posted on Twitter, totally owned the lack of performance and said he's going back to the drawing board. That's really to his credit, not many coaches would be so forthright. He has Taylor and Bruce in New York so let's see how they go before passing judgement.
Really, Hoka need to let the NAZ crew run in painted out Vaporfly's. They're basically starting nearly half a mile behind everyone else. There's no cost to Hoka anyway. Nobody sees the shoes. Only the singlet and cap ever get on TV or in photos. And isn't it better for Hoka if they can advertise one of their athletes as Boston 3rd placer?
I suspect On athletes are going to be in the same boat soon, so don't be surprised if the AOC group take a step backwards or plateau next year. On forced their marathon athletes to wear their shoes in Tokyo and they'll have a spike ready for next season.
Straight Outta Beaverton wrote:
ghost of fred lebow wrote:
Baxter's marathon debut will be interesting
I How does NAZ stack up against Hanson's? Roots? Tinman? McKirdy? Are there threads mocking all of those?
You must be new here.
Ho Hum wrote:
Are these guys doing any serious heat training? It seems like a lot of runners coming down from dry altitude locations have underperformed in humid conditions this fall.
Also, come on, they obviously aren't going to openly say they need better shoes.
This. Fauble was complaining all last week when he was in Michigan how "humid" it was. You just are not going to perform well when you've been training in 30-40 degree dew points all summer/fall and race day has a 60 degree dew point. And yes their shoes are also inferior.
And to add to this, the Inside A Marathon book by Rosario and Fauble is a great inside read on the training and thoughts behind it. Regardless of how you feel about the performances, very educational.
I commend NAZ for the openness, effort, and stepping up when things don't go their way. It's foolish to think every marathon for every marathoner is going to be an A effort; shat happens sometimes. My recent hunch is that training at altitude too close to a race with disparate environmental conditions is a bigger problem than people give it credit for (i.e., altitude benefits being cancelled out by difficulty dealing with humidity, for example). I'd love to dig into some PubMed and see whether I'm just a dunce or there's something to it.