Top D3 or mid-major D1?

The top D3 programs have recruits that could have run D1, but chose the D3 route instead, whether it was for academics or the ability to be a starter on a nationally ranked team. Many of the guy recruits on the top teams can run 4:17-20 and the top women recruits can run 4:55 - 5:05. Go where you'll be happiest and what is best for your future after college.

I have read none of the other comments. But here is my two cents as a guy who was in the exact same predicament 10 years ago. In high school I ran 1:59/4:24/9:42/16:28 just to let you know that I am a similar caliber runner to you. I ended up picking a mid-major D1 school. I really wish I went D3. I was romanticized by the idea of saying I went D1 and getting cool gear to wear around. Before I dive into this, this is anecdotal, this is my experience, other people have different experiences so take everything with a grain of salt. Now it may be that the grass is always greener, but at the D1 level if you don't perform from day one you might find yourself not even competing. I also found the coaching where I was to be lazy. There was a basic cycle to things. 1) freshmen show up (5-10 kids) all of whom were local all starts, all-state, school record holding kids. 2) their training jumps, many go from 40-50 mpw up to 60-80 mpw. Also lifting is now more of a factor. 3) kids get injured/academically fatigued. At this point some succeed and make rosters, some grind. but roughly half by Jr year will have hung up the spikes. Many of these kids never run again. 4) the ones who remain score points at conferences, some even make it to ncaa regionals. TBH to get to ncaa regionals for the 1500m you need to run a 4:05 mile or faster. Who knows maybe you have it. To get to Nationals you have to be fast. Fast, fast. You need to be ready to drop a 3:40 with a 56 last lap. Then to place at nationals in the 1500m you need to be capable of running under 3:40 and kicking and getting lucky. What is my point. My point is that the D1 level is so competitive not only at the level of national, regional and conference, but also inter squad. Its dog-eat-dog. Its f**k or walk. Personally my tone is negative because I wasn't one of the lucky lemons who squeezed through the lemon squeezer. I didn't have time to develop. Because of my milage jump from 50 mpw up to 70-75 mpw, left me exhausted, especially atop of academics, lifting, meetings, and college life. I ended up doing poorly in classes.

Conversely I watched high school teammates go D3 and D2. They all ended up better. They had more time to develop. Their coaches prioritized their needs. They had time to recover from injuries. Sure their gear wasn't as cool. But their pressure was lower. Their coaches were more willing to accommodate them when they had a tough academic semester coming up. They all improved far more than I did. I entered college as a 4:24 guy and left as a 4:21 guy. It wasn't that I didn't want to train. Its that my coach just let me run myself ragged. I personally believe that unless you are a sub 4:20/9:20 guy or unless you have tons of upside because you run low mpw and could invest more time into training. D3 is the spot. If you go D3 and you improve you have a chance to make nationals and competing within your conference. Also D3 schools can be very good academically. If your grades are good, I would advocate for doing everything you can to get into the "little ivys" in the Northeast. I apologize if my writing is a jumbled mess, but sincerely D3 seemed from my informed opinion to be more fun and generally better for the kids competing at that level. Also its fun to win. It's not fun to get your ass kicked every weekend. it's fun scoring for your team in XC. It's not fun being the 10th guy on the team because you can only run a 25:high for 8k.

Lastly for me there was a silver lining. The school I went to was a competitive large state school academically. By virtue of my running ability I got into a good school that I otherwise might not have gotten into. Because this was a state school and in-state for me even though I did not get a scholarship, I did pay significantly less than most people. I got a good education for a good value. So it wasn't all bad. From an academic standpoint it worked out (which is the most important part). So weigh your options, pick a school that feels right. But if your asking from a running standpoint I think that if you run for a competitive (top 20) D3 school, you will have better opportunities to improve and you will have a chance to actually win some stuff.

I hope this helps.

Those aren't real D1 times. There are typically 100 guys ahead the best D3 guys in every event.

big joe wrote:

Those aren't real D1 times. There are typically 100 guys ahead the best D3 guys in every event.

Those times aren't top D1 recruit times, but they are times that would be recruitable on most D1 Programs. The runners running these times are impressive, but not good enough to be a potential starter on good D1 programs. All I was saying is that these runners, who could have went D1, chose to go D3. They did this for various reasons, as opposed to being on a team where they would probably never crack the travel team, or they'd be on a bad D1 program, that would never have a chance to move past regionals.

Most of the top D3 schools are also elite academic schools. There is a life after college.

big joe wrote:

Those aren't real D1 times. There are typically 100 guys ahead the best D3 guys in every event.

And since there are more than 300 D1 schools, that means the top D1 runners would be the top runner at 2/3 of the D1's out there. Like people are saying there is little difference in speed between the better D3 programs and the vast majority of D1's (not the P5 and NAU, BYU, etc.).

Find the best fit - price, atmosphere, academics, coaching, location, etc. and go there. Don't pay attention to the Division.

I'd chose a school based on your academic interests. I was in a similar position as you when choosing a college. My high school PRs were 1:57, 4:18, 9:25, 15:37 xc 5k, I ended up going to a D3 school that had my major, and I improved as time went on. My college PRs were 1:53 800, 4:07mile, 8:26 3k, 14:23 5k, 24:19 xc 8k. If the coaching is good at a D3 college you should be able to improve if you put in the work.

You are correct. But that is because those teams are comprised of rich white kids. So if a rich fast kid wants to he surrounded by like minded runners, those schools are good choices. The perennial powerhouses of NCC. Wartburg, and UW-Lax, are not top academic schools though.

Thanks for telling your story man. You touched upon my biggest worry in D1, which is simply not being able to race. Some D1 teams have B-teams that run at local meets while the A-team travels but in a lot of cases if you're not on the travel squad racing opportunities are limited. I have a teammate who is a freshman at top-20 D1; while he was recruited for his track speed, he's only been able to race once so far, and he might not race another cross country race this season. While I am confident in my ability to improve and I actually do want have teammates who are better than I am, I also want to race.

Did D3 for 2 years, then transferred to D1. Took full ride academic scholarship to a decent D3 team and improved some (I was slower than you). Transferred to D1 school primarily for academics, but had to weed out a few for cost, then from a short list I chose one where I could run.

Both were great experiences. I ended up with a degree from a very reputable school with no debt and got to run, too.

At D3, had a teammate who transferred from D1 school. Became D3 All America and would not have made it to D1 Nationals, but would have been a solid team contributor on a decent D1 team. Where I transferred, he would have been about 4th or 5th man in CC.

My advice: Money is often a factor so rank choices accordingly. Choose for Academics first, then narrow what is left for athletics. You can find competition at your level in D1 thru D3.

Good luck.

"A Regular Guy" made me think of more to add. My experience was in the 90s and team rosters were not limited like they are now. I probably could not walk on to run at my D1 alma mater now with the times I achieved then. I got to race a fair amount despite rarely cracking the top 10 in CC, but my first race required finishing 14th on the team or no more travel for the season - I finished 14th, last man on the B Squad. We had our own indoor track with weekly races, so racing was abundant indoors. Outdoors I often went to lesser meets while the A-Team went to big ones. That was fine by me, but I had to drive myself there sometimes. Again, those opportunities may not exist now.

We really didn't have cuts, just attrition of about 50% through each year. That was with unlimited walk ons. Some got injured as the training stress took its toll, other gave up after never racing. We did up to 70mi weeks at D3, but we never ran less than 70mi weeks at D1 - up to 100mi. I walked around like a zombie for the first few months, but adapted well and improved. Might not have made it from the 50mi weeks I was doing in HS. It definitely affected my academics negatively. I had a full year of eligibility for my 5th year and walked away because the new coach ran people into the ground and said the last 7 standing were the team. Well, they were toast too - in 10 years he never coached and All American. In addition, he was a screamer and it sucked the joy out of it. So coach and culture matter.

Ask the coach about his training philosophy and what the racing opportunities are for you. Look at their roster and race results to see how people like you travel and race. Talk to athletes to see what the culture is like. A positive environment goes a long way.

You're right that it depends a lot on the person.

A little about my own experience: In high school I ran 4:33 and 9:43, although at the end of my senior year I was in shape for 4:25/9:28ish. I spoke to a number of DIII's, a couple DII's, and a couple mid-major and even a top DI school. I ended up going to a small DIII, and unfortunately found myself working under an incredibly mediocre coach who refused to take my ambitious goals even remotely seriously. Thankfully, he left going into my sophomore year and I wound up with a young head coach as ambitious as I am, and my assistant coach has over 30 years of experience coaching runners to the sub-28:30 10k range.

Last year (Junior year) my progression was unfortunately cut short by an untimely mental health crisis, but my workouts were suggesting that I could run a 1:56 800, 3:50 1500, 14:10 5k, and 29:30 10k. I did not hit any of these times, not even close, and my summer training was pretty inconsistent since I was rebuilding my mental health.

Despite this, my cross country season has been going very well, and I'm steadily moving into the top DIII rankings. Come track season, I am aiming to take down the DIII national records of 13:50 and 28:38. My coaches, both smart and realistic, believe that I am capable of this (not that I'm capable of it right now, but that I will be by the Spring).

The division doesn't matter when picking a school. The roster doesn't even matter. It's been over two years since I was on a team where people could even keep up with me in workouts, yet I've progressed well. The important thing is to find a team with both a coach and a culture that value the same things you do. Once you find that, you can use it as a base to achieve goals you never thought possible. It can be a tricky thing to figure out, but if you want to message me to get more advice from me on the topic, my instagram username is the same as my username here. Feel free to hit me up with any questions you have.

Have you looked at D3 schools lately? Programs like Pomona, Williams, and MIT all have sub 14:00 5k guys, and their entire top 7 are under 14:40! Williams top 3 recruits this year ran 4:12/4:18/4:19 in the mile. In all, the Nescac conference had 10 recruits in 2021 that ran sub 4:20 in high school. Maybe D3 was a joke when you went to college, but the top programs can not only hang with serious D1 programs, but in many cases beat them. Just look at the results from the Paul short invite last week. Alex Philiip placed 6th out of 350+ and tied Parker Wolf from North Carolina. John Carroll was 15th out of 40 schools in that race and most were D1 schools. Yes, JC is a good D3 college, but they are maybe top 10. At top school like Pomona could legitimately be a top 30-40 D1 team.

I looked lately. D3 is slow. The best guy wouldn't score in a good D1 conference.

Indoor track from 2020? Really? First off, anything from 2020 was a complete joke. A lot of schools didn't run due to covid, and even those that did had a lot of gap year students who took the year off. This was even more prevalent at the upper tier Div 3 programs where academics are more important. Take a look at Elias Lindgren or Aidan Ryan. Both are 13:50 5k runners and they didn't run last year. Yes, Parker Wolfe is only a freshman, but he was the #1 HS runner in the country last year and the Gatorade runner of the year. He is also the #1 runner on a North Carolina team that is ranked in the top 15 in the country and he TIED a Div 3 Sophomore.

I can show you countless races that mix Div 1 and Div 3 teams and the 3's hold their own. I'm not claiming they are better, and they certainly don't have the depth, facilities, scholarships, etc. but to think that D1 is the only place where good runners can go is ignorant and not fair to the OP.

Grow up. D3 is slow. D1 is fast. 1 guy ran sub 14:06 in 2019 in D3. More than 100 guys in D1 did. Entire D1 XC teams have 7 guys faster than that. The top guy in D3 wouldn't make the top 10 D1 squads. Think about that.

Wow. Talk about your insecurities. First off, I never said D3 is better than the top 10 Div 1 programs. But Since you brought up Patel, his 13:51 5k time in 2019 would have ranked 42 on the 2019 Outdoor qualifying list for D1. He would have been the 5th runner on BYU, the 5th runner on NAU, and the 4th runner on Colorado that year. Certainly in their top 7 runners. And only 20 schools had a runner faster than him on their rosters, so I'd say he would have done just fine at an elite D1 program.

No one is doubting the dominance of top D1 teams, but that is not what the OP was asking about. He was saying top D3 vs mid range D1. And I think you would be very hard pressed to say that Pomona or Wartburgh or North Central couldn't beat a top 40 team. D1 is great for the first 40-50 schools, but after that, most of those runners are mid pack guys. Stop comparing Williams or Johns Hopkins to NAU, Oregon, or Stanford. No one is questioning that. But top tier D3 programs can still offer quality running, great academics, and smaller class sizes, etc. There is something for everyone.

If you're not looking at getting a scholarship (which with your times you are not) I think overall D3 is going to be the better experience. My times were similar and I had a great experience D3, I was a good not great D3 runner (qualified individually for xc nationals once), on a good not great team (consistently 7th in our region when 4-5 would go to nationals). Almost all d3 school would be happy to have a runner of your caliber on their team, but for the top programs you won't be a top recruit. The top schools are REALLY good these days. And these top schools include a large mix of prestigious, expensive private school and state schools as well.

Also take LRC for its running advice. Get academic and financial advice somewhere else... this is just a bunch of underachieving runners who want to justify their decisions by saying it was the right move financially/academically.

The reality is that you will need to improve to be a contributor whether you run mid-major D1 or at a top shelf D3 school.

D1 insecurity/D3 trolling on this board always entertains . My D3 team was better than many mid-major D1 teams even back in the 90s. We were one of the better teams in D3 (two 3rd place finishes at XC nationals, and in outdoor my senior year we had the #2 D3 10,000 guy and the steeple national champ), so guys with your times were viewed as projects more than immediate contributors. I was our 4th man and ran under 14:20 (although I was better in track than cross country).

But the thing about D3 is that they can take those projects on and help them improve. I'm just not sure how much a D1 coach is going to pay attention to a kid running high 4:30s (although that may be mid 4:20s by the end of this year, which would help).

I was the same as this guy, and I went big dog D1. Huge mistake, I never rose to the near top, nor survived the injuries I got trying to get there. My high school times still stand, and the DIII schools that were banging on my door in high school would know my name to this day.

That was decades ago, and life has confirmed to me between then and now that I would have thrived in a glorified high school environment, and nothing else would have changed. I have no doubt, though, that I would have swapped current regrets (should have gone DIII), for what would have been otherwise (should have gone D1, I was SO good).