Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

Tom is a great guy, selfless and truly knows how to coach. Maybe altitude did not do well for Drew. I’ve known lots of solid runners not born and raised at altitude move to altitude and train for a few years and is never the same runner. I doubt drew is maxed out but maybe he’s not doing the little things, ancillary work, diet, massage, etc. There is a lot of variables besides just coaching.

coach_rodney wrote:

This seems like awful timing given the Olympics are less than 100 days away and the trial coming up in June. Were things so bad that they couldn't wait it out until after the Oly Games?

None of that matters as none of those guys are going to be even sniffing an Olympic team. How many will even make finals at the Trials?

Everybody agrees on the following:

- Hunter is the only real talent in the group

- everyone else should probably be working a real job and running the roads

The ideal outcome would be if they have to rebrand, adidas loses interest and pulls support from the circus around Hunter and all the clowns have to face the music. Ever thus to deadbeats ...

bannnned i got wrote:

a smart coach who is an a$$hole that degrades runners will eventually been given a large serving of humble pie....think al sal (plus was he that smart? or was it all the drugs?)

It was the talent. Alberto wasn't up to much with the Dave Davises, Chad Johnsons, and Philemon Hannecks of the world.

You're right about the off-the-track professionalism that sets Ritzenhein's group apart, but I had to laugh when you said his group had similar credentials to the Tinman group.

Hoare, Beamish, and Monson were NCAA champs. Klecker was 2nd in everything and lost his senior year track season to COVID. O'Connor was a huge stud in college and still has the indoor NCAA meet record in the mile. Only Tinman person who comes close to that pedigree is Hunter, obviously. The rest of the group is more akin to Emily Oren - really good D2 athletes.

Rojo, I agree 1000% with what you just said, and there have been plenty of times where I have not. The request to have him relocate his family, not give him any job security and then cut him loose is definitely a low brow move. For those who believe in karma, Tinman Elite definitely does not have karma on their side going in to the trials. Honest question, does Parsons need anything other than karma to make the Olympics for Germany? Pretty sure he just needs the qualifying time, doesn't need to worry about top 3 for that country.

You make some good points above but if you guide a guy to the foot locker title and he wants you to move to coach him, it's hard to turn down. I also blame adidas as well. I do think the pros need mroe structure. There is a lot of free time to get distracted.

But to be honest, I need to do more research on the actual results but i've had one conversation with Schwartz about training and it was clear ot me he knows what he's doing training wise.

I mean does anyone talk about the New Balance team or Reebok team? No, because they aren't on social media so people don't false think they'll be world beaters. I mean hell Abbey D'Agostino was a superstar in college and has done very little as apro. Do we all think Mark Coogan sucks as a coach? No, because he's got another stud in the stable in Purrier who we focus on.

In terms of dollars spent on the team, I'd be SHOCKED if Schwartz's results aren't right up there with the other coaches.

This group had 1 first round draft pick, BTC has like 8, Reebok has 1-2 but a WAY WAY bigger budget, etc.

rojo wrote:

Write up the best workouts in the world and let the personality - whether it's Schumacher, Coogan, Fox, implement it.

Except Schumacher doesn't have a personality ...

He has just always had ridiculously talented athletes. He inherited Matt Downin, Jay Schoenfelder, Isaiah Festa, got Tegenkamp and Josh Spiker soon after that and it just progressed from there. I mean, he does mechanical speed and long, hard aerobic efforts - it's not genius stuff but it's solid and if you have a bunch of horses do that for a while they're going to be very good.

rojo wrote:

I do think the pros need mroe structure. There is a lot of free time to get distracted.

If you're getting distracted in your free time, even as a 22 year old, you're not mature enough to make it as a professional athlete. I'll die on that hill.

A few things here: 1. If it is all about how fast a version of the body is, would you, by your example, train a pro woman the exact same as you would a decent HS boy? Because that is a sign of clearly not understanding the human body since those two athletes who run similar times are physiologically vastly different. A coach might be good at developing 2:00 800m boys but not 2:00 800m girls.

2. High School coach teacher makes a great point. You are coaching minds. This is what guys like Mike Smith are masters of. He has an amazing ability to read and nurture athletes and they always show up when it matters most. Yeah it's a good idea to read Daniels Running Formula as a serious coach, but Smith would tell you that is not the most important book to read. He and many others are more concerned with literature on psychology. Chris Miltenberg mentions that he learned much more about coaching from recruiting and spending time with athletes than he did from getting his masters in exercise physiology.

Maybe Schwartz was only providing the hard numbers of workout plans and mileage and paces and the TME guys did not feel like he was there enough to really know them as athletes. People have mentioned he has a lot of other gigs on his plate. It seemed like the only coach who was there in person was Cory Leslie. It is odd that initially their group was so centered around the coaching figure and his expert knowledge/specific training philosophy, but Schwartz himself has gotten more and more distant and out of focus.

What a disaster. I like TME and watch their stuff on YouTube etc. but if they keep his name that is some BS.

Also it’s really weird that it’s not just Drew leaving the team to go be coached by someone else. I would have thought Tom was getting some adidas money too surprised to hear he’s been a freaking teacher this whole time nearly.

a big portion of the board got what it wanted here

I agree on the point about Drew not being as talented as the other guys on this list. People define “talent” by looking at high school times in a vacuum and not considering how someone got there. Drew was very well trained from a young age and may have less talent than a guy who ran 4:02 on 50 miles a week and just ok coaching.

This also means it doesn’t make Tinman a bad coach or Drew a bad/dumb runner if he hasn’t progressed how others hoped he would. Many people progress a lot after high school because of better coaching - he was just closer to that peak already.

None of this is complicated. Drew maxed out due to physical limitations. He is very but not extremely talented. His form has gotten better but it is still way too sloppy to compete at an elite level. The margins are very small at the top and his aerobic strength isn’t enough to overcome his other flaws. Very little of his failures are due to Tom.

rojo wrote:

There was a young college grad who called me up about 2 years ago who had a good finance job and asked me if he should go quit his job to make youtube videos with these guys in Colroado. He's like - they are having so much fun, I think social media is the future."

I was like, "Dude, when you are 25 and all you care about is having rent paid and running fast" it's a lot of fun but i wouldn't quit my job if I were you.

[

What did he do?

Summarize, dude.

rojo wrote: I mean hell Abbey D'Agostino was a superstar in college and has done very little as apro.

WTF, she did better than you and your brother! She's done better than most collegiate champions, too.

I think Tinman is a very good coach.

That being said, Hunter isn't the only talented runner on the team. If you're deciding talent as one of the top couple in the NCAA, there are several others.

Sidney ran 13:29 for 5k in college before super shoes, beating some of the top guys in the NCAA D1 in the race.

Barraza was a bad jump away from being an NCAA champion, with an 8:30 college steeple PR.

Templeton was 5th at NCAA XC, just 3 seconds behind Morgan McDonald, who won.

Griffith was 3rd at the NCAA championships in the 1500.

Coleman was 2nd at NCAA's in the steeple.

Point being. All of these guys were very good in college. They were among the best in their event in the NCAA. We're they superstars? No. But they were the NCAA equivalent of Ryan Hill, Elise Cranny, Vanessa Frazier, Woody Kincaid, Josh Thompson, and so on.

Again, I think Tinman is a good coach. But let's not continue with the idea that it's Hunter and a bunch of scrubs. From a talent standpoint they are on par with the Beasts, the Reebok group, NAZ elite, and just about every other group besides the main Nike ones.

free shipping with purchases wrote:

You're right about the off-the-track professionalism that sets Ritzenhein's group apart, but I had to laugh when you said his group had similar credentials to the Tinman group.

Hoare, Beamish, and Monson were NCAA champs. Klecker was 2nd in everything and lost his senior year track season to COVID. O'Connor was a huge stud in college and still has the indoor NCAA meet record in the mile. Only Tinman person who comes close to that pedigree is Hunter, obviously. The rest of the group is more akin to Emily Oren - really good D2 athletes.

And check the budgets. Ritz is paid a ton. He has a real budget. Does Tinman even get paid by adidas?

Low Mileage Runner wrote:

2. High School coach teacher makes a great point. You are coaching minds. This is what guys like Mike Smith are masters of. He has an amazing ability to read and nurture athletes and they always show up when it matters most. Yeah it's a good idea to read Daniels Running Formula as a serious coach, but Smith would tell you that is not the most important book to read. He and many others are more concerned with literature on psychology. Chris Miltenberg mentions that he learned much more about coaching from recruiting and spending time with athletes than he did from getting his masters in exercise physiology.

.

Yes psychology is important, particularly so in college as the key to the game is conning them, i mean wooing them in the recruiting process. If NAU "always shows up when it matters most" then why in the hell did they lose in 2019 when they were HEAVILY favored to win.

Two of their key runners ran way worse in 2019 than they did in 2018.

Grijalva 23rdin 2018 to 52nd in 2019.

Ferro - 26th in 2018, 63rd in 2019

If they always showed up when it mattered most, they wouldn't have lost that meet.

And I'm not saying coaching the pyschology isn't important. And I'm not saying Smith isn't a great coach - he is. And I'm not saying Schwartz shouldn't forcus more on psychology - he probably should.

But a college coach has it way easier. Many of them purposely withhold attention. They want the athletes to CRAVE It. They want to appear to be the guru. It's a psychological ploy. Plus creating this 'guru myth' helps in recruiting as well. But you only have to control them for a few years, then they leave.

Mind fucking pros isn't going to work so well. They are adults and they shouldn't be leaving in 3 years.

As for Milt, yes, what he says is true. It's way more important for him to be able to recruit top talent and do a 90% job of caoching than it is to recruit 80% talent and coach it 100%.

But in dispelling your post about NAU, I'm actually making your point in a weird way. Its' not important whether or not Mike Smith is a perfect coach - what is important is people like you adn the high schoolers think he is the guru and so they go there.

Even look at basketball. Everyone bows down to John Wooden. Yes he was great but he also had a dirty as hell recruiter paying players to come there. Now, that being said, not everyone can coach elite talent.