Also notice how they look ripped in the pic.
Also notice how they look ripped in the pic.
Sham 69 wrote:
Also notice how they look ripped in the pic.
? What is this supposed to mean?
Muscle makes you faster
I suspect this is a troll post the way it's written but it's a cool topic and an interesting one.
When I was much younger I was obsessed with reading into the training of any running legend - but especially middle distance runners and I will never forget coming across an article where Noureddine Morceli talked about running 10 minute mile pace on some recovery days. I thought this couldn't possibly be right as that was 6min15/km pace and is basically slower than a warmu-up/down jog. It wasn't until I was much older and had even more experiences in running did I realize that it wasn't a typo and in fact this insanely "slow" paced run was used by many great and incredibly fast runners.
One of those experiences was in 2002, staying for a week or so with Bob Kennedy, Steve Slattery in Teddington, London. Next door was Daniel Komen, Noah Ngeny, Faith Macharia. I was running with Kennedy in Bushy Park when he told me a story about Moses Kiptanui before he broke the WR in the steeplechase and became the first man under 8. In 1995 Bob had just come to London and set out for a run with the crew. He was fully expecting to be out the door and gunning it because Moses in particular was the best MD runner on the planet (he was also the world 5000m record holder which many people forget, and had held the 3000m record). So they start off basically walking and Moses told him its because they don't like to run on the pavement so take it easy to the park. No problem Bob thinks - we will get to the park and as would happen in the US, we will start pumping out the 5min30 miles. Nope - he said if anything the pace got even slower and these guys ran about 90min around the park a few times at 8-9min/mile pace if that. Bob told me that afterwards he has asked Moses why they run so slow and Moses told him basically that sometimes it doesn't matter how fast you run - there is a "fast" run to get better and a "slow" run to not ruin the fast one. The "slow" run has no limit to how slow because it's not about improving anything - it's there to just get you from "fast" one to "fast" one.
When its put so simply (one of the secrets as to why athletes the old school Kenyans in particular like Kiptanui were so amazing - they made everything simple) it makes a lot of sense. Of course this was right in race season so the workouts or the "fast" runs were sessions but the logic applies to any training block.
The faster you run, the more energy you use - pretty simple. We think energy is just about the physical act of running - Kiptanui saw energy as being important to not just physically run, but to recover. More energy = faster and better recovery. For him at some point there was no physiological gain/benefit/stimulus between a 6min, 7min or 8min mile. He needed much faster than those speeds. So the only difference was how much energy was needed to run those paces and his theory was that it was better spent helping him recovery from the tempo or interval workout he had done as headed towards the next one or race.
As I met more Kenyans runners in particular these super slow run stories became even more frequent. I even asked some guys if they did them in build-up training (when you would think they wouldn't) and they still did. Kennedy Kimwetich (1.43.03 and 2.13.5 for 1k ) once told me he would go into the forest and run for 3 hours just because he liked the forest. This ties back into my first ever recollection of amazing runners running so incredibly slow (Morceli).
Obviously it's all dependent on the time of the season, base or race etc Building volume of miles is probably, for most people, a game of fairly even energy expenditure. But once true workouts start being phased in with true spikes in effort there is no logic to support not looking at certain runs being completely irrelevant in terms of the speed at which they are run.
The only thing getting in the way is, as runners, the constant desire to convince and show ourselves we are in shape by making every run be quick and feel easy. The secret of many of the absolute best is that they were able to suppress that and focus on what really was important.
You're mostly correct. I'm in Division III and run 80-90 mpw at 6:30-40 average mile pace on most of my easy runs. In that time I've blown by most of my DIII competition and am aiming for fast times even by DI standards. Upping my training intensity has been critical to boosting the aerobic gains in my training.
However, there is still something to be said for training at very easy paces occasionally. Cheptegei is one of the fastest distance runners in history and every Wednesday morning he takes a 60 minute run as slow as 10:30 per mile. Extra easy recovery runs deserve a place in your training and should not be discredited.
But yeah, at the end of the day your easy runs make up 75-85% of your total training. If you're not pushing yourself during the bulk of that, you're simply not going to improve very much or very quickly.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
I suspect this is a troll post the way it's written but it's a cool topic and an interesting one.
When I was much younger I was obsessed with reading into the training of any running legend - but especially middle distance runners and I will never forget coming across an article where Noureddine Morceli talked about running 10 minute mile pace on some recovery days. I thought this couldn't possibly be right as that was 6min15/km pace and is basically slower than a warmu-up/down jog. It wasn't until I was much older and had even more experiences in running did I realize that it wasn't a typo and in fact this insanely "slow" paced run was used by many great and incredibly fast runners.
One of those experiences was in 2002, staying for a week or so with Bob Kennedy, Steve Slattery in Teddington, London. Next door was Daniel Komen, Noah Ngeny, Faith Macharia. I was running with Kennedy in Bushy Park when he told me a story about Moses Kiptanui before he broke the WR in the steeplechase and became the first man under 8. In 1995 Bob had just come to London and set out for a run with the crew. He was fully expecting to be out the door and gunning it because Moses in particular was the best MD runner on the planet (he was also the world 5000m record holder which many people forget, and had held the 3000m record). So they start off basically walking and Moses told him its because they don't like to run on the pavement so take it easy to the park. No problem Bob thinks - we will get to the park and as would happen in the US, we will start pumping out the 5min30 miles. Nope - he said if anything the pace got even slower and these guys ran about 90min around the park a few times at 8-9min/mile pace if that. Bob told me that afterwards he has asked Moses why they run so slow and Moses told him basically that sometimes it doesn't matter how fast you run - there is a "fast" run to get better and a "slow" run to not ruin the fast one. The "slow" run has no limit to how slow because it's not about improving anything - it's there to just get you from "fast" one to "fast" one.
When its put so simply (one of the secrets as to why athletes the old school Kenyans in particular like Kiptanui were so amazing - they made everything simple) it makes a lot of sense. Of course this was right in race season so the workouts or the "fast" runs were sessions but the logic applies to any training block.
The faster you run, the more energy you use - pretty simple. We think energy is just about the physical act of running - Kiptanui saw energy as being important to not just physically run, but to recover. More energy = faster and better recovery. For him at some point there was no physiological gain/benefit/stimulus between a 6min, 7min or 8min mile. He needed much faster than those speeds. So the only difference was how much energy was needed to run those paces and his theory was that it was better spent helping him recovery from the tempo or interval workout he had done as headed towards the next one or race.
As I met more Kenyans runners in particular these super slow run stories became even more frequent. I even asked some guys if they did them in build-up training (when you would think they wouldn't) and they still did. Kennedy Kimwetich (1.43.03 and 2.13.5 for 1k ) once told me he would go into the forest and run for 3 hours just because he liked the forest. This ties back into my first ever recollection of amazing runners running so incredibly slow (Morceli).
Obviously it's all dependent on the time of the season, base or race etc Building volume of miles is probably, for most people, a game of fairly even energy expenditure. But once true workouts start being phased in with true spikes in effort there is no logic to support not looking at certain runs being completely irrelevant in terms of the speed at which they are run.
The only thing getting in the way is, as runners, the constant desire to convince and show ourselves we are in shape by making every run be quick and feel easy. The secret of many of the absolute best is that they were able to suppress that and focus on what really was important.
Great post. Respect. Reminds me of the old days of LRC.
Here's a personal anecdote, since we're all piling on: I entered college as a workout hero who ran around 25 mpw and crushed every easy run and workout all through high school. My PRs were 4:32 for the 1600 and 16:31 for the 5k. In college, I increased my mileage until I was putting in 90-120 mpw during the base-building phase for every track/xc season. The vast majority of my easy days were run at around 8 min. pace, sometimes slower. In three years, my mile PR dropped to 406 and my 5k PR dropped to 14: 24. How'd I get so much faster than you, OP? Here's the thing: Running high mileage is indisputably harder than running low mileage. It's easy to run everything fast when you're only running 25 mpw. Interval workouts are a piece of cake. Try putting in 13 miles at 8 min pace pace to cap off a string of tough, +100 mile weeks. Try maintaining a strong pace up and down mountain trails for three hours. Try running twice a day, 5-7 days a week, every week. It's f*cking brutal. If you've never been about that life, I don't want to hear your BS. It just sounds like babies making excuses to avoid hard work to me.
Sham 69 wrote:
He told Farah to accelerate his pace by 60–90 seconds per mile.
Ah yes. In his early 30s, Mo Farah suddenly became the world's most unstoppable runner because he... started running his easy days faster. Oh, and don't forget rope stretching! All natural! Hey, whatever happened to that coach of his?
just lol wrote:
One of the most stupid takes ever. One of letsrun most popular article is about Wejo getting faster once he slowed down for his easy runs. Just stop.
Funny I don't ever recall seeing this Wejo chap on the track Coe? Or on the roads against Steve Jones. Or making an appearance at the worlds or Olympics? But I guess his advice is golden never the less right?
Chugging along at slower than 8 pace won't get you very far. The aim for anyone is to get a running form like the elites, you won't get that biomechanics shuffling up and down the park at 9.30 pace FFS.
British Guy wrote:
How many examples of pro's running 8 or 9 minute miles on easy days do you need to see before you can accept that running at 8 minute mile pace is still beneficial?
They don't run 8 or 9 pace on easy runs do they? Common dude. When they do it's likely just a filler 2nd run after or before an actual run, or recovery run kinda thing. Digging out the Kenyan example trope now, they would knock out a hard fast progressive run AM, finishing very fast, then maybe trott out a slow 8 or 9 pace PM, I'd say your stretching it a bit to call those type of runs their easy runs.
OP, who are you and what are your credentials as a coach or athlete?
Sham 69 wrote:
Under 7 minute pace is the golden pace at which one can improve. 8 minute pace is way too slow and does not require the mechanics needed to run a 4:30 mile. Therefore, you develop bad running form habits at 8 minute pace (which translate into a slower mile time)! Not only that, but there are no practical gains to be had by running that slow. If you can't run under 8 minute pace, you should either hit the track to gain basic endurance (building up the distance from a shorter one to a longer one) or take the whole day off.
You can not be a champion if you run the majority of your miles at 8 minute pace. You can only be an average runner. To be great, you first have to make sure that you're able to run somewhere in the 7 minute pace range for up to 5 miles. Then, you drop your easy pace down to 6:30. If you don't believe me, there are many Wesfly or TheAthleteSpecial episodes where they describe sub 7 as "easy".
Once your easy pace is 6:30, you can advance to increasing mileage up to 10 instead of 5. But in doing this, your pace will decrease to the 7s again. That is okay, but you must start the process again of improving your easy pace down to 6:30.
The only way this strategy works is if you supplement with weekly repeats. Like 400 or 800s, for example. That is a main component, because those repeats give you the "muscle memory" needed to run fast. If you have ever jogged the day after doing these, you would know what I am talking about. You don't even have to think about running with the "correct" form, because it just comes naturally.
Weight lifting also helps neuromuscular coordination along with the sheer POWER needed to run fast. Ever watch the sprinters at meets? The best ones have very lean muscle, and distance runners need the same to some degree.
By training yourself to run a faster easy pace, you give yourself the ability to train your threshold with higher frequency. Your threshold is the most important tool required to run fast.
HITHEREYOU wrote:
just lol wrote:
One of the most stupid takes ever. One of letsrun most popular article is about Wejo getting faster once he slowed down for his easy runs. Just stop.
Funny I don't ever recall seeing this Wejo chap on the track Coe? Or on the roads against Steve Jones. Or making an appearance at the worlds or Olympics? But I guess his advice is golden never the less right?
Chugging along at slower than 8 pace won't get you very far. The aim for anyone is to get a running form like the elites, you won't get that biomechanics shuffling up and down the park at 9.30 pace FFS.
Henry Rono ran faster than Coe and Steve Jones from 3000-10000 meters and did most of his mileage at a 8+ minute pace.
Noureddine Morceli and Taoufik Makhloufi, both faster than Coe in the 1500, and they would do easy sessions as slow as 10 minute mile pace.
Maybe Coe would've ran faster if he took his easy days easier and was able to put more into it on his hard sessions.
just lol wrote:
HITHEREYOU wrote:
Funny I don't ever recall seeing this Wejo chap on the track Coe? Or on the roads against Steve Jones. Or making an appearance at the worlds or Olympics? But I guess his advice is golden never the less right?
Chugging along at slower than 8 pace won't get you very far. The aim for anyone is to get a running form like the elites, you won't get that biomechanics shuffling up and down the park at 9.30 pace FFS.
Henry Rono ran faster than Coe and Steve Jones from 3000-10000 meters and did most of his mileage at a 8+ minute pace.
Noureddine Morceli and Taoufik Makhloufi, both faster than Coe in the 1500, and they would do easy sessions as slow as 10 minute mile pace.
Maybe Coe would've ran faster if he took his easy days easier and was able to put more into it on his hard sessions.
You proposing that an Olympic gold medalist, and multiple world record holder would have 'ran faster' if he slowed down his easy pace? -face palm-. And I would bet Roni did not do 'most of his mileage at 8+ pace'. An article on the very site says he did intervals every day, and little to no easy running.
I think in reading a lot of the posts, wires are getting really crossed. Particularly regarding the definition of "easy" run and "recovery" run. Some people obviously believe "easy" run refers to an aerobic base building run - some people believe it refers to a recovery run. That's fine - nobody is wrong.
End of the day and the most important thing - do/have some of the worlds greatest ever MD/distance runners run very slow (8min/mile +) on some runs? The answer is simply yes they do. I've read it, I've heard it from guys first hand, seen it with my own eyes and physically been part of such runs.
Is Eliud Kipchoge doing the bulk of his miles at 8min pace as he builds up for a season? of courses he's not. Are a number of his miles (albeit a few) done at a pace that is extremely manageable even for an average plodder as he recovers from a monster workout? Most likely. Does he even count these miles (a-la Coe) - who knows?
Again it comes down to ones interpretation of a few basic terms.
HITHEREYOU wrote:
just lol wrote:
Henry Rono ran faster than Coe and Steve Jones from 3000-10000 meters and did most of his mileage at a 8+ minute pace.
Noureddine Morceli and Taoufik Makhloufi, both faster than Coe in the 1500, and they would do easy sessions as slow as 10 minute mile pace.
Maybe Coe would've ran faster if he took his easy days easier and was able to put more into it on his hard sessions.
You proposing that an Olympic gold medalist, and multiple world record holder would have 'ran faster' if he slowed down his easy pace? -face palm-. And I would bet Roni did not do 'most of his mileage at 8+ pace'. An article on the very site says he did intervals every day, and little to no easy running.
That's just false on Henry Rono training. You can find Henry Rono exact words on here from the man himself(he used to post here). The first 4 months of his training was slow running up hills. And once he transition to track work, he would still start his morning off with a slow run over hills and than do a track session in the afternoon.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
I suspect this is a troll post the way it's written but it's a cool topic and an interesting one.
When I was much younger I was obsessed with reading into the training of any running legend - but especially middle distance runners and I will never forget coming across an article where Noureddine Morceli talked about running 10 minute mile pace on some recovery days. I thought this couldn't possibly be right as that was 6min15/km pace and is basically slower than a warmu-up/down jog. It wasn't until I was much older and had even more experiences in running did I realize that it wasn't a typo and in fact this insanely "slow" paced run was used by many great and incredibly fast runners.
One of those experiences was in 2002, staying for a week or so with Bob Kennedy, Steve Slattery in Teddington, London. Next door was Daniel Komen, Noah Ngeny, Faith Macharia. I was running with Kennedy in Bushy Park when he told me a story about Moses Kiptanui before he broke the WR in the steeplechase and became the first man under 8. In 1995 Bob had just come to London and set out for a run with the crew. He was fully expecting to be out the door and gunning it because Moses in particular was the best MD runner on the planet (he was also the world 5000m record holder which many people forget, and had held the 3000m record). So they start off basically walking and Moses told him its because they don't like to run on the pavement so take it easy to the park. No problem Bob thinks - we will get to the park and as would happen in the US, we will start pumping out the 5min30 miles. Nope - he said if anything the pace got even slower and these guys ran about 90min around the park a few times at 8-9min/mile pace if that. Bob told me that afterwards he has asked Moses why they run so slow and Moses told him basically that sometimes it doesn't matter how fast you run - there is a "fast" run to get better and a "slow" run to not ruin the fast one. The "slow" run has no limit to how slow because it's not about improving anything - it's there to just get you from "fast" one to "fast" one.
When its put so simply (one of the secrets as to why athletes the old school Kenyans in particular like Kiptanui were so amazing - they made everything simple) it makes a lot of sense. Of course this was right in race season so the workouts or the "fast" runs were sessions but the logic applies to any training block.
The faster you run, the more energy you use - pretty simple. We think energy is just about the physical act of running - Kiptanui saw energy as being important to not just physically run, but to recover. More energy = faster and better recovery. For him at some point there was no physiological gain/benefit/stimulus between a 6min, 7min or 8min mile. He needed much faster than those speeds. So the only difference was how much energy was needed to run those paces and his theory was that it was better spent helping him recovery from the tempo or interval workout he had done as headed towards the next one or race.
As I met more Kenyans runners in particular these super slow run stories became even more frequent. I even asked some guys if they did them in build-up training (when you would think they wouldn't) and they still did. Kennedy Kimwetich (1.43.03 and 2.13.5 for 1k ) once told me he would go into the forest and run for 3 hours just because he liked the forest. This ties back into my first ever recollection of amazing runners running so incredibly slow (Morceli).
Obviously it's all dependent on the time of the season, base or race etc Building volume of miles is probably, for most people, a game of fairly even energy expenditure. But once true workouts start being phased in with true spikes in effort there is no logic to support not looking at certain runs being completely irrelevant in terms of the speed at which they are run.
The only thing getting in the way is, as runners, the constant desire to convince and show ourselves we are in shape by making every run be quick and feel easy. The secret of many of the absolute best is that they were able to suppress that and focus on what really was important.
+1
One of the best posts of 2021 so far.
Does this sort of advise ( running most of your milage at a very easy pace) work for everyone? Every runner has a different circumstances to deal with. Look at paula radcliffe training ( well documented) before her marathon best. One of the criticism high school kids in the US get is running crushing workouts with the following necessary shuffle to recover from and not developing the aerobic house Canova talks about. Wanna talk about how long the "no interval success " tread of old on this site was? Circumstances dictate the details of ones training .
Sham 69 wrote:
Always Building wrote:
OP - You are an idiot.
Really? Look, maybe I'm wrong. But my teammates are doing pretty good with this training (one in the 15s, three in the 16s, two in the 17s, one in the 18s) and we're only a school of 800. By contrast, I know a guy who ran easy days at 8 minute pace and does high mileage, but he's still slow and can't even break 5.
I went to a high school with 800 students as well. If we did not have at least 2 guys sub 16 and 4 more guys sub 17 it was a bad year for our team. If you ran 18:00s you were nowhere near varsity so don't talk up to your team like these kinds of times are crazy. We did fairly high mileage for high schoolers (40-60 miles a week) and we certainly never ran 7:00 pace for easy days. I don't disagree that certain people thrive under faster, lower mileage but for the vast majority of runners, the key to long term success is steadily building strength through mileage (and weights when they are ready) at an easy pace and then having good workouts of both tempo pace and faster stuff, and you cannot forget about the long run.
I believe the limiting factor when running high mileage is glycogen stores in working muscle fibers.
You cannot have a good workout/quality run if you're significantly depleted. Or maybe you can have, at the cost to your next workout, so it's not sustainable. So you need to save glycogen on your regular runs, by running at intensity zone that spares glycogen (slower pace). How fast or how slow this pace is should be found individually for every athlete depending on many factors, such as fat/carbo metabolism, fiber composition, diet and training load/intensity. Only thing that can be said for certain is that for real high mileage it should be way below aerobic threshold/marathon pace.
I don’t think there’s a golden pace. That would depend upon your current condition, terrain (including altitude) & distance. I think it’s more about what is the purpose of the run.
A) If it’s speed it’s faster than your current goal pace for your primary distance.
B) if it’s pace it’s at your current goal pace. Naturally this would have to be a shorter distance than your race. It can total more with breaks.
C) endurance building is the tricky one. Shorter used to run his long runs at 7:30 pace- that’s 150% of his race pace. I don’t think he said “ I’m going to run 7:30 pace” but that was comfortable for him. Now if your marathon pace that would mean 9:00 pace. If that feels comfortable go for it provided your form isn’t altered. Back in the dark ages (60-70’s) I was a decent runner. My long runs were in the 7-9’s. Many people used to tell me that my form stayed basically the same- only shorter strides and naturally slower.
The takeaway from what I’m trying to say is look at the purpose of your long runs- are they
A) to recover from harder runs/workouts ?
B) to build endurance (ability to run long)?
C) to build stamina (ability to run faster for a longer period of time)?
These answers are different for each of us- as is “our perfect training pace”
BTW my current training pace finds me doing my morning 10k trail run being done between 46- last spring the first weekend of Covid-19 and 1:55 a few weeks ago in 31” of snow. The 1:55 was a much more strenuous workout and my form deteriorated after about 15 meters.
Go run at your own pace to get ready for your own goals run for your own reason.
Be well
This is it. Sham's whole training philosophy centers around the easy days, when that's completely backwards. Improvement comes from the quality workout days, easy days are for recovery and aerobic maintenance.