Any reason why you and others white hobby joggers here spend hours every day of your lives under multiple handles propping up the legacies of juiced to the eyeballs exploited African runners who will likely drop dead by their 50's?
Any reason why you and others white hobby joggers here spend hours every day of your lives under multiple handles propping up the legacies of juiced to the eyeballs exploited African runners who will likely drop dead by their 50's?
OK so you assert that Zatopek and Nurmi would be great today because of Ingebrigtsen. Do you know how stupid you appear to be? What the hell do they have in common? They are white. So what? For you I know that is everything. But for the intelligent, Ingebrigtsen’s success has no bearing on how well Zatopek and Nurmi would do today. There is no relationship other than skin color. Surely you must be playing the fool on purpose?
Hello friends. I have been noodling over life’s big questions, such as who are the top 100 men’s middle and long distance (800-marathon) runners of the last 75 years.
I may tackle a top 50 women of the last 50 years soon.
John Wesley Harding wrote: 67. Waldemar Cierpinski ?? + Joins Abebe Bikila as one of only two men to win two Olympic marathon golds (‘76 and ‘80). He ran his 2:09:55 lifetime best at the ‘76 games, a new Olympic record which beat Frank Shorter by 50 seconds. He took bronze in the ’83 WC marathon. He was ranked number one in the world in ‘76 and ‘80. - He is strongly suspected of benefiting from East German state-sponsored doping. Apart from his Olympic years, his highest world ranking was 8th in ‘83. He was not nearly as competitive on the track as other marathon champions like Shorter or Lopes.
I’m sure you’re right about Cierpinski but without confirmation I tried to let the allegations negatively affect his ranking without DQing him. Perhaps he should have fallen further down.
There is confirmation. When the Eastern Bloc fell the East German records of who used what were opened up.
Cierpinski was on PED's. The IAAF said they would strip him of his Olympic Medals when he, himself, admitted he used them. He didn't. His sporting goods store was vandalized.
I had him on an incomplete list of honorable mentions for his WRs, but his 10k silver in ‘72 might push him over the edge and warrant his inclusion on the list. Looks like he earned his world #1 ranking at 5k in ‘73 too. I’ve got no real argument against it and it’s the most compelling suggestion yet. That said, he has to displace a 2-time outdoor 5k world champ or a 3:47 miler to make the cut.
Bedford goes behind a few other 10k record holders who didn’t make the cut, such as Barrios, Mamede and Ondieki. He didn’t perform well at international championships and his career was over before it really started,
when he was 24 years old. I’d put Harald Norpoth ahead of him as well.
I agree with everything you say about Bedford but I always wonder (having started running during his era) how different things would be for him with the shoes, technology, and just the knowledge that we have today.
He was a very hard trainer running up to 200 per week, 3 or 4 times a day.
When he wasn't injured he was literally destroying the rest of the world.
I think he still has the largest margin of victory at World Cross.
Just the training shoes we have these days would keep him healthy compared to the bedroom slippers we ran in in the early 70's.
Give him PT, Chiropractor, regular massage, foam rollers, etc and he just may have stayed healthy enough to medal at the 72 and 76 Olympics.
They were making money under the table back then. Now, he'd have a lucrative shoe contract with appearance fees and over the table prize money.
I’ll defend my position so i’m not just insulting you, but you deserve it.
It is downright offense to omit kipchoge on a top 10 list. He beat El G and Bekele at 18 years old for a global gold and got a few more medals on the track.
He is by far the greatest marathoner of all time. Split his career in half and he’s 1 and 2. And he’s still going. 1st, 3rd, and 4th fastest ever. 1, 2, 3, 5, and 6 unless you believe alternating pacers saved 3 minutes. Absolutely historic performances punching the boundaries of human beings. Utter dominance in an event unmatched by every distance runner bar KB, Geb, and Hicham.
He also has some of the greatest longevity ever, winning global golds 18 years (and counting) apart.
To say he’s worse than nurmi and zatopek is horrible. No one should care about era specific dominance if the competition they faced was the worst the sport has ever seen. The entire continent of africa couldn’t compete! I’d bet everything I own kipchoge would beat zatopek (given modern training and tech) in every event and by 5+ minutes in the marathon. And I could pick some random kenyan teenager off a track in eldoret to beat nurmi. They raced nobodies.
Mo farah and seb coe are less egregious but still terrible picks over eliud.
Lagat isn’t top 10 (or barely so) but B-tier?? THE greatest longevity ever, second fastest 1500 ever, double world gold, and close losses to the greatest 1500m runner ever is B-tier?? Put farah in bekeles era and he’s C tier by your standards but instead he’s better than eliud kipchoge?
And these fanciful conversions for kip keino must be why you think nurmi is better than kipchoge. I’m sure his quintuple gold medals would hold up because he’d run 12:38 in 2022
Like sure you can still believe that nonsense after Jakob Ingebrigtsen.
Nurmi and Zatopek with modern training and tech would be...well at least an Ingebrigsten.
It's the modern competition that is garbage. The native populations of the traditional powerhouses have declined, and participation has declined even more relative to population size, leaving the sport to be dominated by a tiny strip of East Africa.
You're assuming that Kipchoge is 100 x the talent of Nurmi because of the difference in times. There must be a serious IQ problem with athletics fans if they are still hung up about times in the era of super shoes. Never mind the copious quantities of an endurance drug that likely shaves at least 5 minutes off of marathon times that Kipchoge has almost certainy been taken since his mid-teens. But then your name is 'freekiprop'.
Zatopek literally trained in the bath!
However, I agree with you it's a terrible list, although he's obviously spent a lot of time creating mini-biographies of each athlete, which is the only good thing about it.
Well I don’t think jakob is or will be better than eliud. I suppose he has a chance but it will be very tough. And jakob has supreme genetics and has been training like a pro since he was barely a teenager with two brothers before him to be his lab rats. Who else ever was doing 100 miles a week at 14?
Anyways, the gap between east africa and the rest of the world in the marathon is staggering. I’m sure you’ll say it’s all about participation and I don’t feel like arguing this again, so you can believe that. But the fastest white marathoner ever has run 2:06. Give Zataopek 4 minutes over galen rupp and he still loses to kipchoge 9 times out of 10. If you want to assume kipchoges on drugs, Rupp is far more suspicious than kipchoge will ever be.
And before you make any accusations, i’m not disparaging these athletes because they’re white. Jakob is one of my favorite runners and he’ll be top 10 all time. Seb coe has a good argument to be up there. Even zatopek or viren. But none are better than kipchoge and anyone from before 1960 faced no competition whatsoever.
Its very much like basketball. There’s a reason wily chamberlain and bill russell aren’t considered the goats.
And my name is a joke. Lighten up and hop off of seb and steve.
I do, however, have several issues with certain runners being ranked too high/low. I feel like you didn't give enough credit to guys such as Kipketer/Morceli/Geb after Rudisha/El G/Bekele overshadows their achievements, without looking closely on how their achievements actually rank up against others. Anyways, here's my top 15 list, and I'll list out the reasons why there are some differences from your top 15.
1. I'd have Viren over Bikila for #13. Viren won 4 OG golds compared to Bikila's 2. Viren set 3 worlds records to Bikila's 2. Bikila's Olympic performances were legendary yes, but Viren WR in an Olympic final, tripping, and after heats (yes, they ran 10000m heats in 1972) was certainly on the same level.
2. I'd have Morceli move up to #10, with Said Aouita dropping to #11. They each have one OG gold, but Morceli wins with 3 WC golds compared to Aouita's 1. Aouita did have some minor medals but they were not comparable to Morceli's consecutive golds in WC. Morceli also raced against the best in the world consistently while Aouita cherry picks races with weaker fields.
3. I'd have Farah move up to #8, and Coe dropping to #9. Coe's Olympic medals in '80 and '84 were great, no doubt, but they were slightly tarnished as not all the serious medal contenders were present due to the Moscow and LA boycotts. Farah's consecutive 5k/10k wins however were all against extremely high quality fields, which is why I would put Farah above Coe.
4. Haile Gebrselassie should be #3, no less. I was actually very confused to why you would put him this low. His number of WRs (27!!!) in a modern era was legendary. His career in the 10000m alone could match Rudisha's entire career accomplishments, with 3 WRs, 2 OG golds and 4 WC golds (2 more WC golds). Even excluding his 4 world indoor titles and numerous WRs in the other distances, he will at least be on par to Rudisha. El G's slightly better than Rudisha due to more WC golds and accomplishments in the 5000m, but still no better than Geb. Geb's range is severely underrated, with World indoor 1500m gold in Championship Record time to 2 marathon WRs and having the fastest marathon time in 4 consecutive years. In my opinion, Geb >> Aouita in terms of range. Geb also did not ''laid down and surrendered to Bekele'', as he ran 26:50 from the front with sub 13 final 5000m, a championship performance that will win every 10000m championship with exception of 2003. It took a supremely fit Bekele that sat on him for most of the race to outkick him.
5. Kipchoge should be higher but you've written this list in 2020, the year before he won his second OG gold, so that's fair enough. He's a serious contender to the G.O.A.T status in the future, (perhaps even in 48 hours) although for now Bekele's accomplishments are better.
So my top 15 would be:
1. Kenenisa Bekele 2. Eliud Kipchoge 3. Haile Gebrselassie 4. Hicham El Guerrouj 5. David Rudisha 6. Emil Zatopek 7. Peter Snell 8. Mohammed Farah 9. Sebastian Coe 10. Noureddine Morceli 11. Said Aouita 12. Wilson Kipketer 13. Lasse Viren 14. Abebe Bikila 15. Kipchoge Keino
Mo at #9 and Ryun at #38. You obviously know nothing about the history of running. Lol.
This dude just put together maybe the most thorough and well researched post Ive ever seen on this forum and you want to talk about knowing nothing about running history lol. As much as I dislike Mo, he has 10(!) global championship golds, Ryun has 0. Everyone weights accomplishments differently, so if you care more about championship success this is an absolute no brainer.
Mo at #9 and Ryun at #38. You obviously know nothing about the history of running. Lol.
This dude just put together maybe the most biased super shoe/drug post Ive ever seen on this forum and you want to talk about knowing nothing about running history lol. As much as I dislike Mo, he has 10(!) global championship golds, Ryun has 0. Everyone weights accomplishments differently, so if you care more about championship success this is an absolute no brainer.
FIFY
Everyone knows Jim was screwed in '72. And Most of Mo's are from the WC, a competition that DID NOT EXIST until after Jim retired. So, yeah, this list is not accurate. At all.
You can remove the WCs and he still has 4 Golds. And here comes the excuses for Ryun too lol, spare me. You either won or you didn't, you don't get pity legacy points because you fell. If that's the case, are we going to retroactively give El G the Olympic Gold in '96? Does Kipketer also get a gold in '96 since he wasn't allowed to compete due to a nationality change?
I feel dirty defending my least favorite runner Farah, but you are being absolutely ridiculous.
You can remove the WCs and he still has 4 Golds. And here comes the excuses for Ryun too lol, spare me. You either won or you didn't, you don't get pity legacy points because you were deliberately tripped and the IOC failed to apply the rules correctly to your appeal. If that's the case, are we going to retroactively give El G the Olympic Gold in '96? Does Kipketer also get a gold in '96 since he wasn't allowed to compete due to a nationality change?
I feel dirty defending my least favorite runner Farah, but you are being absolutely ridiculous.
I FIFY again. El G's fall was in the final and the nationality change was the correct rule enforcement. The '72 situation was theft.
You can remove the WCs and he still has 4 Golds. And here comes the excuses for Ryun too lol, spare me. You either won or you didn't, you don't get pity legacy points because you were deliberately tripped and the IOC failed to apply the rules correctly to your appeal. If that's the case, are we going to retroactively give El G the Olympic Gold in '96? Does Kipketer also get a gold in '96 since he wasn't allowed to compete due to a nationality change?
I feel dirty defending my least favorite runner Farah, but you are being absolutely ridiculous.
I FIFY again. El G's fall was in the final and the nationality change was the correct rule enforcement. The '72 situation was theft.
Excuses, you don't get hypothetical accomplishments when comparing the careers of runners.
If Jakob's career ends after this coming world championships (assuming he wins at least the 1500m), where does he fall? I think he's gotta be at least in the top 50.
Any reason why you and others white hobby joggers here spend hours every day of your lives under multiple handles propping up the legacies of juiced to the eyeballs exploited African runners who will likely drop dead by their 50's?
OK so you assert that Zatopek and Nurmi would be great today because of Ingebrigtsen. Do you know how stupid you appear to be? What the hell do they have in common? They are white. So what? For you I know that is everything. But for the intelligent, Ingebrigtsen’s success has no bearing on how well Zatopek and Nurmi would do today. There is no relationship other than skin color. Surely you must be playing the fool on purpose?
I'd argue that, considering the high number of reps, Zatopek was doing lots of threshold work, which is a thing he would share with Ingebrigtsen.
If Jakob's career ends after this coming world championships (assuming he wins at least the 1500m), where does he fall? I think he's gotta be at least in the top 50.
For the sake of argument let’s say he wins the double: then I think he’s in the discussion for top 30, not just top 50. He’d be somewhere in the Yifter/Cheptegei/Komen range I think, and not far from a guy like Cram.
Interesting how one guy in the present can actually negatively affect someone from the past - Jakob’s dual 1500/5k success and in particular his 2 mile WR takes a bit of the sheen off Komen (who had a very short time at the top, as well).
If Jakob's career ends after this coming world championships (assuming he wins at least the 1500m), where does he fall? I think he's gotta be at least in the top 50.
For the sake of argument let’s say he wins the double: then I think he’s in the discussion for top 30, not just top 50. He’d be somewhere in the Yifter/Cheptegei/Komen range I think, and not far from a guy like Cram.
Interesting how one guy in the present can actually negatively affect someone from the past - Jakob’s dual 1500/5k success and in particular his 2 mile WR takes a bit of the sheen off Komen (who had a very short time at the top, as well).
I am always a fan. Time to bring this classic thread to the top again.
Any reason why you and others white hobby joggers here spend hours every day of your lives under multiple handles propping up the legacies of juiced to the eyeballs exploited African runners who will likely drop dead by their 50's?
OK so you assert that Zatopek and Nurmi would be great today because of Ingebrigtsen. Do you know how stupid you appear to be? What the hell do they have in common? They are white. So what? For you I know that is everything. But for the intelligent, Ingebrigtsen’s success has no bearing on how well Zatopek and Nurmi would do today. There is no relationship other than skin color. Surely you must be playing the fool on purpose?
Because the likes of Zatopek are disregarded on these lists as 'they had no African competition', with the inverse racist assumption being that Africans would dominate then (because they are 'natural born runners') as they did for 30 years until Jakob came along and showed that was nonsense. Further, the hundreds of doping positives in Africa has proved beyond doubt that East African dominance was largely due to EPO.