enough of the pseudoscience people wrote:
HOOWIE wrote:
I think a lot of us are just generally skeptical of all elite endurance runners at this point. Just look at history.
With good reason too. But you won't get an intelligent debate from Exercise Physiologists because most of them are very poorly educated in basic science. This is a huge part of the problem.
WTF does your comment have to do with the quote? What topic would that debate be on?
Angel Eyes wrote:
It would be irresponsible and ignorant to say that it is impossible for a 19-year-old male to run 3:28 for 1500m. Yes, the data and historical evidence show otherwise but we can never say "Never". That being said, if Jakob is genetically "gifted" it is safe to say his performance progression as he matures will improve significantly. Let's dare to say that when he is 25 years old in 5+ years he should be running sub 3:25 consistently, and well under 12:30 for 5000m. Only time will tell and we'll have to wait. I personally believe that he is on a well-managed regimen of EPO micro-dosing, testosterone supplements and blood transfusions. It's not that difficult if done correctly and thoroughly monitored. I'm sure he is self-testing both EPO and testosterone levels constantly to ensure he never exceeds detectable levels while competing. The blood transfusions can be done immediately after being tested and just prior to "Big" races with instant results.
"If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it usually is a duck"
"Go Run One"
I see faulty logic in assuming a linear improvement in times. Compare his trajectory to the top 100 (200?) runners of all-time. As you run faster, it gets harder to improve on those times.
restrunner wrote:
bigballs800 wrote:
Re-watch Monaco and see the first two runners finishing, not even tired, the look on their face says it all. Now, watch 3rd place, British guy, looks like he going to die. That's one sign that 3:28 looked too comfortable. How fast would Ingebritsen gone if he hadn't gone outing sub 55? 3:26? that's El G territory in the EPO era.
Look at Sebastian Coe after setting his 1:42 or his first Mile WR both from 1979 . He looks like he has just finished a walk in the park.
Proof he was doping too!
here we go again wrote:
“Why do many on here believe Jacob I is doping?”
Because he is fast.
My long time guide is that anyone faster than I am must be on something. There is no other explanation.
If you saw Gjert angry before, how angry would he be if Jakob was close to any illegal substance?
So, in early stages of the Covid, one nation had all testing up and running within a week, hiring motorhomes so they could test even in the midst of the pandemic, as this nation was responding rationally to the virus (unlike most people here), that measure is naturally not needed anymore as they have opened up.
Sorry to say it but my impression from many posters is because he is white. I don't mean to raise a racial issue here, but for many it is impossible to conceive a non-East African running that fast. Jealousy also?
My take: kid is clean until proven otherwise. His times are legit. You wanna speculate on doping and smear him (as well as any other athlete regardless of race) ? Help yourself on libel avenue.
FinnJ wrote:
I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping
He's still 2.6 seconds off the WR in the 1500. That's alot.
That's the equivalent of being around 1.3 to 1.6 seconds off the 800 WR which would put him in the 1:42.3- 1:42.7 range.
And if he were a 400 meter runner that would put him about the equivalent of 43.8 to 44.0 time.
So not a bad Nick Symmonds 800 meter dash equivalent time for him and just a bit behind what Wariner did in the 400.
preJr wrote:
superior genes, is that what you say? wrote:
WTF what?
You did not know that physiologists measure track talent by 200 metre time trial?
Hi I'm a graduate level exercise physiologist and you're wrong.
Because someone is a student, that does not cut mustard here. You have to prove you are smart.
Both Owen Anderson PhD and David Martin, PhD. stated 200m TT is the logical way to gauge talent. How else should a middle school track & field coach do it or track club coach of young teenagers?
Nothing better than getting young twelve year old boys & girls out there doing 200m TT to sort out the team The first 30m of 60m or 100m dash is an acquired skill. A not so great start does not necessarily ruin a 200m dash performance.
A coach would want to watch the young lads sprint 200m. If a 12 year old sprints sub-26 but slows badly, he is one of your 100m guys to start the season. The sub-26 guys finishing strongly may be 200m or 400m guys.
Sub-28 at age 12 are your talented guys.
Respond with something smarter next time.
matt_london_413 wrote:
FinnJ wrote:
I could understand if you believe he is taking something else, but not epo, which many people here believe. Why is it so hard not to see that people have different genes? His father has hem 17,5+ with Jakob slightly lower. It shows us that the family got a rare genetic makeup or else his father is also doping
He's still 2.6 seconds off the WR in the 1500. That's alot.
That's the equivalent of being around 1.3 to 1.6 seconds off the 800 WR which would put him in the 1:42.3- 1:42.7 range.
And if he were a 400 meter runner that would put him about the equivalent of 43.8 to 44.0 time.
So not a bad Nick Symmonds 800 meter dash equivalent time for him and just a bit behind what Wariner did in the 400.
Sound like a scatterbrain. All over the place.
By your little logic the time would come to a 1:42.2 wouldn't it now? 7-8th all time. Kind of makes sense...and way faster than Symminds or Brazier ever ran.
So, as it is established, he is not fantastic at 200m, clearly he is comfortable at running them at 27 seconds, as he has closed his latest laps in races being 5000 or 1500 or a mile in 54 seconds.
And to you thinking he is using drugs, just shame on you.
There. I have meant it for a long time, but saying it so blunt I have rescinded, but there it is.
Luv2Run wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
This begs the question whether athletes exist who cannot run 3:28 without chemical help, but can run a 3:28 with chemical help.
About 15 athletes in history have run sub-3:29.
I have not done this in a while, but I am feeling cheeky: that is NOT "begging the question".
It most certainly is "begging the question".
Luv2Run wrote:
superior genes, is that what you say? wrote:
Oh! You are stating Jacob Ingebrigtsen is genetically superior. Physiologists measure T&F talent, more specifically track talent by 200m TT. List 200m personal bests of J. Ingebrigtsen's father, grandfathers, great grandfathers, mother, grandmothers and great grandmothers.
As someone with masters in ex phys and several years working in the sports world, I cannot say I have ever come across this idea. There are papers showing some correlations in shorter distance ability and endurance ability.
I don't know about physiologists, but I believe Lydiard gauged his runners based on 200m performance.
did anybody else feel that this was the modern day version of the 1974 com games 1500 .
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
So here is the thing - I REAAAALLLY want to believe that I am witnessing arguably the greatest MD talent perhaps of all time (because there is no doubt on his age so this is a 19 year old with PR's of 1.46/3.28/4.50/13.02 and has already won the European titles over 1500m/5000m at age 18). But as I read someone else post - the saddest thing is that we quite simply have been burned too much in this sport to simply sign off with blood on the "innocent until failed a test" logic - mostly because we have seen with Alberto Salazar that this is completely and utterly irrelevant in the world of sport. It is simply ignorant to think that he was/is the only bad egg with similar intentions that has ever existed in the realm of track and field.
So the answer is quite simply - I have no idea. In Jakobs favor - he hasn't failed tests or had issues with whereabouts. Whether you want to hear this or not, he is from a country where "disappearing off the grid" isn't really going to happen and his incentive to stay clean is definitely elevated because he is a national celebrity there right now. He has a lot to lose by being involved in anything even remotely suspicious (and this is a big factor compared a number of countries where athletes simply have nothing to lose if they were caught).
On the other hand, doping is powerful and it's hard to overcome - as in it's really, really hard to be clean and better than someone who is already has a high level of talent and takes PED's. You don't just give EPO or testosterone or thyroid meds to a random 150 pound human and then sit back and watch them run 3min30 for 3 and 3/4 laps of a track. When I look at the European alltime 1500m list I am concerned when I see the names Mohammed Farah, Fermin Cacho and Medhi Baala now sitting in positions 2,3 and 4 behind Jakob.
Farah - kind of obvious right? THE main guy with a coach who is now banned from the sport. Spectacular improvement from a solid international runner to one of the top 5 greatest distance runners the world has ever seen
Cacho - center of the Spanish middle distance juggernaut that kicked off funnily enough right before the Barcelona Olympics and lasted right until EPO became detectable. Ask yourself where the great Spanish MD/distance runners are now? Between 1991 and 1999 Cacho had 7 seasons where he ran 3.32 or faster - including the Euro record at 3.28.95. His worst season he ran 3.35.5. Then between the ages of 30 and 31 he went from running 3.31 to 3.42 and retired from the sport a year later. Yep, okay.
Baala - Not much known about Baala but he was of course highly successful running sub 3.29 and 1.43.15. My only story of Baala is a personal one where at Athens in 2004 he was supposed to injured with a hamstring issue - indeed running 3.46.06 in the heats, except I personally watched him at the practice track in the village 2 nights earlier pull off the sleeve on his "injured" leg and run 36.0 for a 300m looking pretty damn good. France has had a secretly dirty past with middle distance running (Foaud Chouki, Florent Lacasse both were caught and banned in that exact era) - I personally don't believe Baala was clean.
So to accept that Jakob has run faster than these athletes at the age of 19 unaided is a very difficult leap of logical faith.
Hence the answer to this question - I hope, but I truly don't know what to think anymore.
So here is the thing.
You say you want to believe in talent, but it looks like your belief in the powerful performance of drugs won't let you.
Recall one of the big takeaways from Salazar was that none of the NOP athletes were found to have doped.
The nature of Salazar's infractions indicate the non-implication of any NOP athletes: 1) Salazar's accessory role in Magness self-infusing too much liquid (contrary to Salazar's explicit instruction) containing a non-banned substance; 2) an email to his athletes about how to describe infusions (considered "attempted tampering" with the anti-doping process); and 3) "trafficking" testosterone for a questionable experiment on his non-athlete sons.
You say doping is powerful and hard to overcome -- this is the leap of faith that prevents you from believing in the young middle distance talent. While we have clear examples of the powerful effect of male hormones for women in events requiring physical strength, this is not so clear in any men's distance events for any drugs either separately or combined.
Farah -- the only obvious change in Farah was the development of an unbeatable finishing kick. See above the explanation for Salazar: no NOP athletes implicated based, not only on "never missed a test" type defenses, but after intense scrutiny as part of a deep investigation lasting 5+ years relying on "more than 2,000 exhibits, ... 30 witnesses and 5,780 pages of transcripts" "leaving no stone unturned". No NOP athletes doped. Ever.
Cacho -- you ask where are the great Spanish runners now? I ask where were the great ones then? I looked for great performances all time, and found that Spain couldn't even distinguish itself from other non-Africans of the '80s. Besides Cacho, and a few 2:09 marathoners, I found no evidence of any Spanish distance juggernaut, just a short-lived effort to be as fast as other non-Africans before and after them.
Baala -- Baala is a French runner of Algerian descent. Baala may or may not have been clean, but I think there is another, better reason that the fastest Frenchman, from a country with a secret dirty past, is a North African Frenchman.
You suggest accepting Jakob's performance is a "leap of logical faith", but it appears this is because you have already taken other leaps of faith in the power of drugs, because you have been "burned too much in this sport".
Control substance wrote:
[quote]bigballs800 wrote:
Sorry. Jakob is clearly more talented than El G.
LOL
Ever thought about the fact that Jakob was more dedicated and professional in regards to his training at 17 than most of the top 10 1500m runners in the US in 2019 was? You have guys running sub 3.35 not doing doubles on a regular basis! They dont Even USE lactate meters...
EverHeardofTreshold? wrote:
Ever thought about the fact that Jakob was more dedicated and professional in regards to his training at 17 than most of the top 10 1500m runners in the US in 2019 was? You have guys running sub 3.35 not doing doubles on a regular basis! They dont Even USE lactate meters...
Does Tim USE lactate meters?
jeff tallon wrote:
Because 19 year olds cannot run a 3.28 1500,not without a lot of chemical help.Yes,hes talented,and always has been, but nobody is that good.Im pretty sure he uses EPO plus some other drugs.Whatever the kenyans,moroccans and others are using,hes also on.Theres nothing grey area about his doping,and he is not genetically superior.If a bevy of hugely talented africans are on cocktails of drugs,then so is he.How else would a 19 year old from a low altitude be able to keep to them? its not through eating turtle soup,and dog stew.
Two possibilities either you're telling the truth or haven't got a clue. I very much doubt he uses epo.
Either he is clean or doping from an extremely young age
https://www.norwegianamerican.com/here-comes-jakob-ingebrigtsen-14-year-old-record-breaker-runner/Altitude, he's always at altitude. He was there until 4 days ago and is probably back there right now.
Nobody with a brain uses epo any more
rekrunner wrote:
Cacho -- you ask where are the great Spanish runners now? I ask where were the great ones then? I looked for great performances all time, and found that Spain couldn't even distinguish itself from other non-Africans of the '80s. Besides Cacho, and a few 2:09 marathoners, I found no evidence of any Spanish distance juggernaut, just a short-lived effort to be as fast as other non-Africans before and after them.
Cacho was not the only sucessful middle distance runner from Spain in the late 1990s.
Just look at Seville 1999 1500m...
All top distance athletes use EPO.jakob wouldnt be any different.The rhetoric about cleaning up the sport is just that.Rhetoric.There would be no track and field,and no sport in general if all the drug cheats,and their coaches were caught and exposed.Sport is very corrupt.And yes i believe hes been doping from a young age,and eventually it'll catch up to him,much like it did with the east germans.