Majority opinion here seems to be that Hunter doesn't have the closing speed and Tinman isn't helping improve that aspect. If you can't close in 53 why even bother step to the start line of a 5000m world final? You will always lose and likely not even medal.
To add to my above post, Hunter should be training with guys at his level or higher. This is what Bob Kennedy often said about his success: seek out the best and push yourself out of your comfort zone. Bob trained with the arguably the greatest runner ever (Daniel Komen). Why isn't Hunter seeking out the best?
Can someone provider an example of that top speed work. is that like 150m and less all out type stuff?
Old Man Runner wrote:
To add to my above post, Hunter should be training with guys at his level or higher. This is what Bob Kennedy often said about his success: seek out the best and push yourself out of your comfort zone. Bob trained with the arguably the greatest runner ever (Daniel Komen). Why isn't Hunter seeking out the best?
Drew Hunter is a spoiled brat. He needs to be the top guy or he will throw temper tantrums.
Look at his pathetic response to Brandt. Drew is soft. If he isn't the top guy in his group he'd cry himself to sleep every night.
Also it would hurt his youtube career to get blasted in workouts.
macdaddy wrote:
As an American, I hope he progresses. He’s still young. I just thought we’d be further along after that insane mile in HS.
Running 3:36 in 2018 was a nice progression. But 2019 and 2020 are shaping up to be lost seasons. He still needs one more jump to like 3:34 to have the speed to be a 13:00 type guy.
But he is no longer a really young guy. He is hitting that 23-30 prime where instead of saying that is a good time for his age, you need to be saying that is a good time. Of course the same can be said for guys like Grant Fisher, Reed Brown and a bunch of the other great guys of the last 3-5 years. They haven't exactly flamed out but we also never got a huge step forward so far.
shootpost wrote:
shootpost wrote:
I knew it was stupid to bring up the 5th at USA because my point is lost.
I only really value medaling at Olympics and World Championships. So my criticism of Tinman is I don't believe he does the speed work and training required to win those big races on the last lap.
Him getting 5th at USA getting absolutely BURNTTTT the last lap against USA runners shows how far he has to go. And with Tinmans current training I don't see anything that makes me go "give him time he will develop it." Cause he sure as hell isn't gonna outrun 3:29/12:50 guys in the middle of the race.
Lopez Lomong put 50m on him the last lap with a 10k in the legs. Lopez Lomong is very good, but not a world beater. Shows how lacking Drews finishing speed it.
On a broken foot (Hunter) ... but hey you know it all.
shootpost wrote:
fasciz wrote:
He qualified for the team. That’s the same thing as making the team. But keep telling yourself otherwise.
I knew it was stupid to bring up the 5th at USA because my point is lost.
I only really value medaling at Olympics and World Championships. So my criticism of Tinman is I don't believe he does the speed work and training required to win those big races on the last lap.
Him getting 5th at USA getting absolutely BURNTTTT the last lap against USA runners shows how far he has to go. And with Tinmans current training I don't see anything that makes me go "give him time he will develop it." Cause he sure as hell isn't gonna outrun 3:29/12:50 guys in the middle of the race.
Yea this is true - from what he's shared, it seems like they only do a couple 200s after workouts at mile pace as well as strides, which aren't really speed work at all.
I don't see much anaerobic/lactic tolerance workouts such as 200s, 300s, 400s @ 400-600-800 paces with longer rest.
Top 1500m athletes work on speed a lot more: Nick Willis for example does 100m reps in 11.x seconds, Makhloufi does some low volume sessions at insane speed (there's a yt video), NOP is known to do some fast stuff, you can probably find it somewhere
Missedhisprime wrote:
Can someone provider an example of that top speed work. is that like 150m and less all out type stuff?
Top speed is 30-80m reps at an all out pace, with long recoveries. Longer reps (150-400) are usually for lactic tolerance and are done again at a really fast pace, usually double the rep distance (ie. 200s at 400 pace), with a total of 5-6 reps. Long rest too.
Anaerobic capacity workouts are also fast but have much shorter rest and are pretty demanding sessions - ie : multiple 8x200s at 800 pace 1' r. 6x300 @ 800 with 90s rest etc...
shootpost wrote:
fasciz wrote:
He qualified for the team. That’s the same thing as making the team. But keep telling yourself otherwise.
I knew it was stupid to bring up the 5th at USA because my point is lost.
I only really value medaling at Olympics and World Championships. So my criticism of Tinman is I don't believe he does the speed work and training required to win those big races on the last lap.
Him getting 5th at USA getting absolutely BURNTTTT the last lap against USA runners shows how far he has to go. And with Tinmans current training I don't see anything that makes me go "give him time he will develop it." Cause he sure as hell isn't gonna outrun 3:29/12:50 guys in the middle of the race.
I can think of only one athlete from the USA that has out run 3:29/12:50 talents in the ‘ end of the race ‘ ... You point out the fact that Lopez was able to our sprint Hunter ..but you fail to include that Hunter had a broken foot. At 22yo Drew Hunter is as good or better than Rupp ..that’s a fact. Your worry about finishing speed, but is without any merit if the high end aerobic conditioning isn’t there... I’d say Hunter is moving in the right direction, is with the right person to guide him and with the best group* of guys to help him get to the top.
* there’s only one/two groups that have the majority of athletes in volume that are probably any much better than Drew Hunter...
Old Man Runner wrote:
To add to my above post, Hunter should be training with guys at his level or higher. This is what Bob Kennedy often said about his success: seek out the best and push yourself out of your comfort zone. Bob trained with the arguably the greatest runner ever (Daniel Komen). Why isn't Hunter seeking out the best?
I think your critiques are fair. How much is Tinman modifying these workouts for Drew vis a vis the other members of the group with inferior talent and speed? There're guys who seem to be running with him step for step who would be hard pressed to break 4 minutes in the mile in an all-out race. Drew should be either aiming for faster splits or starting a couple seconds back and chasing them down. I'm all for group training, but you see with Bowerman, they let the top guys/girls let it rip where necessary specifically in track workouts.
TME Hater wrote:
German Fernandez did not quietly end his career during college. He ran professionally for several years. He ran 3:34 after he graduated, which is faster than what Hunter ran.
Hunter is clearly very talented. I posted this on another thread and didn’t get a good answer so I’m asking again: why do people think that Tinman is a bad coach?
His training philosophy seems similar to what all the other top coaches are doing. Hunter’s mileage is low. Some people argue he should be doing more. Colleen Quigley and Woody Kincaid are also very injury prone and also run relatively low mileage. So does Justyn Knight and many of the Bosshard athletes.
Hunter ran a 3:35, so only a second slower than German, and he's still younger than German was, and has gotten injured significantly less. If Tinman's goal is to train and get results in the long term (which he has said is his goal) then it seems reasonable that Hunter will either get a PR later in the 1500, or move up in distance and PR there. He's also pretty close to German's 5k PR is he not?
albanese wrote:
Old Man Runner wrote:
To add to my above post, Hunter should be training with guys at his level or higher. This is what Bob Kennedy often said about his success: seek out the best and push yourself out of your comfort zone. Bob trained with the arguably the greatest runner ever (Daniel Komen). Why isn't Hunter seeking out the best?
Drew Hunter is a spoiled brat. He needs to be the top guy or he will throw temper tantrums.
Look at his pathetic response to Brandt. Drew is soft. If he isn't the top guy in his group he'd cry himself to sleep every night.
Also it would hurt his youtube career to get blasted in workouts.
The pathetic person in that exchange wasn’t Drew.
post nups wrote:
albanese wrote:
Drew Hunter is a spoiled brat. He needs to be the top guy or he will throw temper tantrums.
Look at his pathetic response to Brandt. Drew is soft. If he isn't the top guy in his group he'd cry himself to sleep every night.
Also it would hurt his youtube career to get blasted in workouts.
The pathetic person in that exchange wasn’t Drew.
Agreed. There's nothing soft about wanting comradery with other fast runners instead of beef. People say track needs beef but I disagree. I think it's a very vocal minority of runners who want beef. It's only funny to them if they're not the ones being taunted. Everyone who says Drew is soft would have reacted in a similar fashion or would have been toxic right back.
Rocket Mann wrote:
TME Hater wrote:
German Fernandez did not quietly end his career during college. He ran professionally for several years. He ran 3:34 after he graduated, which is faster than what Hunter ran.
Hunter is clearly very talented. I posted this on another thread and didn’t get a good answer so I’m asking again: why do people think that Tinman is a bad coach?
His training philosophy seems similar to what all the other top coaches are doing. Hunter’s mileage is low. Some people argue he should be doing more. Colleen Quigley and Woody Kincaid are also very injury prone and also run relatively low mileage. So does Justyn Knight and many of the Bosshard athletes.
Hunter ran a 3:35, so only a second slower than German, and he's still younger than German was, and has gotten injured significantly less. If Tinman's goal is to train and get results in the long term (which he has said is his goal) then it seems reasonable that Hunter will either get a PR later in the 1500, or move up in distance and PR there. He's also pretty close to German's 5k PR is he not?
Actually faster than German's 5k PR (13:21 vs. 13:25), although I German was still 18 when he ran that time in 2009 (he was roughly a year young for a college freshman).
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman is the REASON for Hunter's success. He is a highly injury prone runner, most other coaches would have got him chronically injured.
Tinman CV training kept him injury-free through HS, imagine he had Nico Young's coach who is regularly hammering 1k reps at 2:40 pace or doing 2xMile workouts in 4:10, 4:16 etc. Hunter's body would have just broken down.
Tinman allowed a talented runner to prosper - gradually building him up, making him a very strong runner in many aspects. He is doing/has done the same to other runners - Aidan Puffer, Judson Greer, the Ping's, all current HS runners that are doing incredibly well for themselves.
His career is already lasting longer than other talented HS runners. German Fernandez quietly ended his career during college. Cain also skipped college, got the "high intensity" training that everyone here is recommending Hunter, and just broke down. I'd rather have Hunter in the hands of Tinman, knowing he is going to keep him healthy, allow him to develop long-term, run and race up to his genetic limits, than put him under some crazy program that might lead to 1 or 2 short-term results, but ends up destroying his body and career.
Oh you mean the high intensity training Galen Rupp has been doing since he was in HS? and has had one of the best careers amongst US born athletes? Also pretty much bullet proof healthy until he moved up to the marathon and hurt his achilles.
Why are people comparing Hunter to Rupp? Hunter is, presumably, clean. Rupp very likely was not.
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
TME Hater wrote:
Hunter is clearly very talented. I posted this on another thread and didn’t get a good answer so I’m asking again: why do people think that Tinman is a bad coach?
His training philosophy seems similar to what all the other top coaches are doing. Hunter’s mileage is low. Some people argue he should be doing more. Colleen Quigley and Woody Kincaid are also very injury prone and also run relatively low mileage. So does Justyn Knight and many of the Bosshard athletes.
You don't get it do you? Tinman's guys have almost all been injured lately.
His approach is too hard for the individual runner, Why? Because he just punish the body
with faster work when it already had been right to call it a day.It's a big myth that his system
would be something moderate and sensitive!
And look at yourself when you try to do the multiple workouts, doesn't take long before you get
injured again.
- many people, coaches and runners, think it's necessary to sprint all-out to reach one's potential in the mile or 3k. Tinman does not believe in all-out hill sprints or flat sprints, and caps his speedwork to ~400m pace
- coaches like Magness and Marcus critisized him for his "multi-layered workouts" - where he has stamina work, like threshold and CV in the beginning and then fast 30s hills or 200s at mile/800 pace at the end. They say "you can't recruit all muscle fibers when tired, fast reps should be in the beginning, the neuromuscular stimulus isn't ideal". They aren't wrong, but they don't get the point what Tinman wants to achieve - to run fast and relaxed when already under high fatigue, like at the end of a race.
Now , listen to a real pro! You can't force ability to sprint fast ( and then I mainly mean in the finish of a WC or OG final) at the finish of a race by trying to simulate it when already under high fatigue in training. It must be another way to be perfect.Then there are two points necessary. You must develop individual highest possible sprint ability AND highest possible aerob/ anaerob capacity to cooperate . And that must be done in separate workouts to be done the best way.
- he is kinda known for "training sensibly" in all aspects - lower mileage, only two hard sessions a week, very easy long runs. People somehow think that this isn't enough to make a US champion or Olympic champion, they want to see high mileage, pushing to (and beyond) the limits, crazy long runs, and big sessions like 20x200 in 26 or 20x400 in 59.
Training sensibly is not his hallmark.He thinks so, and you think so, but you are both wrong.
To become a world record holder or Olympic Champion, a workout like 20 x 400m at 59 sec
shouldn't be a big session.
tldr: Tinman is actually a better coach than what people think he is.
I don't agree!
LateRunnerPhil wrote:
Tinman is the REASON for Hunter's success. He is a highly injury prone runner, most other coaches would have got him chronically injured.
Tinman CV training kept him injury-free through HS, imagine he had Nico Young's coach who is regularly hammering 1k reps at 2:40 pace or doing 2xMile workouts in 4:10, 4:16 etc. Hunter's body would have just broken down.
Tinman allowed a talented runner to prosper - gradually building him up, making him a very strong runner in many aspects. He is doing/has done the same to other runners - Aidan Puffer, Judson Greer, the Ping's, all current HS runners that are doing incredibly well for themselves.
His career is already lasting longer than other talented HS runners. German Fernandez quietly ended his career during college. Cain also skipped college, got the "high intensity" training that everyone here is recommending Hunter, and just broke down. I'd rather have Hunter in the hands of Tinman, knowing he is going to keep him healthy, allow him to develop long-term, run and race up to his genetic limits, than put him under some crazy program that might lead to 1 or 2 short-term results, but ends up destroying his body and career.
Cain may have done well if Salazar and the others hadn't been hammering her for her weight. No one on that level of calorie deficit would perform well. If Cain went to a different coach, she would probably still have a career.
oefnwgbwg wrote:
Why are people comparing Hunter to Rupp? Hunter is, presumably, clean. Rupp very likely was not.
Ridiculous. Rupp has been one of the most tested athletes. After all the investigations and BS NOTHING was found, and he's still running.
Hunter is a good runner and talented. However very overrated IMO.
Last year is a perfect example. USA Champ in the two mile, from the slow heat and the fast heat was too dumb to realize it at the time..... Hat trick.
USA's outdoors, what place did he get 5th? 6th? Makes the team? Only reason he makes the team is because Jerry Schumacher made and terrible decision to not race BTC athletes before USA's and they ended up not getting the standard and lost opportunities after. So he makes the team in the 5K, when all season he was trying to make it in the 1500m.
I was thinking about the tennis thread the other day, and all the box jumps and side-to-side with bands stuff those guys do. Then I watched some videos with gym training by the world's best XC mountain bike racers.
If I were coaching, I'd have my fastest guy doing stuff like the above, while also working toward a 53 close.
Otherwise, you're never taking down Edris.