Ranking WI collegiate distance programs

BADGER KINGS wrote:

Sir your arguing the same points! Both Milwaukee schools blow and the WIAC is not up to snuff with the Badgers.

From a historical perspective, this is a true statement. By this point, you know what results you are going to get with Marquette and Mike Nelson. However, a lot could change in the next couple of weeks for Milwaukee if they hire the right person. Milwaukee has proven to have the resources in many of their sports, having nationally ranked soccer and volleyball teams in the past. Under the right leadership, it is possible for them to accomplish some big things.

Nelson seems to be a smart guy. Does he just undertrain the team or is he not a great motivator? Milwaukee should be able to recruit within the state. UW normally only recruits the very top guys from within so there are an abundance of 9:15 guys looking for a home. A small scholarship should be enough to attract them over the WIAC schools.

I still wish people on this site would look at stats. Really good Wiac guys run 14:30 while really good UW guys run 13:50. Decent Wiac guys run 15 flat while decent UW guys run 14:20. The very best Wiac guys wouldn’t make the top 7 for UW. Only the occasional guy is the exception.

Extending off the list made earlier, it is good for wiac fans to gain some perspective. Over the past 10 years, these 15 guys at their very best in an event or two could have made Wisconsin's roster.

Eau Claire

- Josh Thorson: 8:11/14:07

- Darin Lau: 8:19/14:13/29:15

- Aaron Easker: 3:50/14:18/29:33

- Chris Wirtz: 8:56SC

- Thomas Breitbach: 14:09/29:49

La Crosse

- Paul Zdroik: 3:53/8:57SC

Oshkosh

- Willy Kaul: 8:16/14:07/29:38

- McKena Ramos: 1:50/3:45

Platteville

- Ian Le Mere: 8:12/13:54/28:38

Stevens Point

- Dan Sullivan: 1:50/3:46/4:07

- David Litsheim: 1:50/4:10

Stout

- Tim Nelson: 8:15/13:57/29:35

- Patrick Jenkins: 8:17/14:21/29:51

- Paul Van Grinsven: 8:29/14:30/8:57SC

Whitewater

- Dawson Miller: 3:51/8:18/14:27/8:46SC

Of this group, only 9 of these guys would have qualified for the NCAA west regional meet this past spring. Now, heres where it gets interesting.

Based on last years rosters, wiac schools added 8.9 freshman to their average roster size of 23.1 men. If you expand that over the length of 10 years, each school is bringing in 89 new kids a decade, meaning the wiac has somewhere in the range of 700-750 athletes (came out to 712) who run a xc/mid-long distance track race in that span of time.

Wiac kids who could have Wisco's roster at some point: 15/712= 2.1%

Wiac kids who could have made NCAA Regionals: 9/712= 1.2%

Wiac kids who could have finished DI All-American: 1/712= 0.14%

Marquette's average incoming class is 6.2 and Milwaukee's is 4.5, thats 107 combined athletes in 10 years.

MU has 6 kids who have made Regionals, UWM has 1. Even though I shouldn't, Im going to hand them Weir, Paulson, and Simons since those guys all did make Regionals and were on Big Ten teams.

MU/UWM guys who could have made Wisco's roster: ~15/107= 14.0%

MU/UWM guys who made the Regional Meet: 10**/107= 9.3%

MU/UWM guys who have finished DI All-American: 1**/107= 0.93%

A couple more comments. Wiac schools do produce some very good Division III runners. However, I think it’s a bit difficult to say they are significantly better at acquiring and developing talent any better than the Milwaukee schools. The sheer volume of some of these wiac schools is actually a bit of a turn off. Look at the graveyard of failure, quitting, and cutting of athletes only to be reloaded with new inferior talent.

We glorify the successes of guys like Josh Thorson and McKena Ramos, but when they ran DI their results were overwhelmingly bad. Although it is great to glorify these DIII legends, it’s foolish to extrapolate their results run against DIII competition to what they could have done running in a DI race. There is much more to running than just a finishing time.

The reason DIII guys run well in DIII is because they are in their comfort zone, they know they are top dog and can dominate people. It was gutless for guys like Willy Kaul (4:21/9:28), Dan Sullivan (4:14), Tom Breitbach (9:15), Darin Lau (4:14/9:07) and any other sub 4:20 or 9:20 runners to go DIII in the first place, they were DI talents. Have some courage to run against the big boys and find out how good you are, instead of racing a bunch of recreation runners.

Don’t get me wrong, I love self actualization for runners as much as the next guy, and there is a place for DIII participation, running is a lifelong sport and should be fun. But, people poo poo guys from MU/UWM all the time on here saying they fake DI and what have you. At least they have the guts to test themselves against the best competition in the country. Sure, they aren’t all that good, but at least they have my respect. DI talents running in DIII are like the kids who play a video game on beginner mode and beat up on the computer trying to set untouchable high scores. Pathetic.

This is one of the least informed posts I've seen in a long time. You misunderstand almost everything about Division III running, and much of running as a sport altogether.

You start by listing athletes in the WIAC who you think would have made the Badgers roster. That's fine, but you forget several things about DIII runners. Statistically they use their fifth years less often than DI runners. How fast would Darin Lau or Josh Thorson have ran with one more year, or how many more runners would be on this list with an extra year with a lower academic workload?

Also, the racing opportunities in DIII aren't as prevalent as in DI, there aren't rabbits in every meet, or guys trying to break 14, etc. Only looking at PRs to figure out who would be a DI All-American isn't very accurate.

You talk about DIII recruiting as if you understood, but there isn't a "graveyard of failure," it's DIII and because there is no scholarship, student-athletes stop when they lose their spark. Unlike DI where athletes are forced to grind it out or risk losing their scholarship. Those athletes are hating their lives, wishing they could quit, and I would much rather be on a team where they left than where you were surrounded by fifth years that didn't want to be there.

Finally, you get on your high horse about high quality runners in DIII. What do you tell an 18 year old who has found their perfect school, perfect coach, perfect team and it happens to be DIII? "Sorry, you ran too fast, you gotta choose again."

Speaking of McKenna Ramos, a perfect of example of a DI school being the wrong fit for an athlete and him suffering. And then you have the balls to point out that he wasn't as successful in DI? If you ever had seen McKenna race when he was in top form, you knew he was DI All-American material. Then the Badgers ruined his career. Not to even get started on judging Thorson's time in DI...

Look, if you want to judge athletes who are good out of high school and choose DIII, great, make yourself feel like a big boy, but realize they probably made their choice knowing the trade offs, and choosing to be happy because of their school, coach, and team, and no guarantee of success.

Your post lacks merit as we know UW Madison is a far more rigorous school then the other WIAC schools.

Additionally, the pressure to perform works well for some athletes and D-3 is the way to go for others. I know some former Badgers that would have performed better with in a less stressful environment. Madison is a meat grinder.

Dose of reality wrote:

Don’t get me wrong, I love self actualization for runners as much as the next guy, and there is a place for DIII participation, running is a lifelong sport and should be fun. But, people poo poo guys from MU/UWM all the time on here saying they fake DI and what have you. At least they have the guts to test themselves against the best competition in the country. Sure, they aren’t all that good, but at least they have my respect. DI talents running in DIII are like the kids who play a video game on beginner mode and beat up on the computer trying to set untouchable high scores. Pathetic.

Wow, amazing, tremendous. You are so right. Round of applause for those runners taking their chance to compete at the highest level and getting scholarships to do so, EVEN THOUGH they knew they could have developed better and ran faster times in D3. Somebody give these guys a medal for doing such a heroic deed. Such brave. Very guys. Much compete.

Just because you do not agree with the message I wrote does not mean it is uninformed. Lets go point by point on this one.

Your point about 5th year running is half-way valid. Most DI athletes do use a 5th year. However, as it relates to this post, MU/UWM do not plan red shirt seasons, 5th years only happen out of injury. So much like your wiac guys, I'd love to see what some of these guys could have done at the age of 23 instead of using a year at 18. Oh and also, its not hard to get into a wiac school, I'd love to see you post some admission standards or national polls about Oshkosh or Stevens Point against DI schools.

I have looked at each of these teams schedules and I'm at a bit of a loss as to your comment about racing opportunities seeing as though top DIII's run at least 3 additional meets a year with xc, indoor, outdoor nationals. Also, the comment about rabbiting is false as well. Wiac schools specifically set up or attend qualifying/last chance meets to get their kids to make it to nationals, and those races are paced.

Your comment about accurately evaluating Wiac guys who could have been DI All-American is pretty weird. Besides La Mere, who else in the wiac over the past 10 years could earn DI All-American status? And I'd like to hear your scientific method for evaluating that.

Next, I think its kind of funny that a good number of people on here feel compelled to only mention the success stories of wiac athletes and the failures of MU/UWM. I think that is because DIII fanboys have a bit of an inferiority complex, which makes sense because there are hundreds of DI schools out there and none of them wanted you. Anyways, you guys highlight how great your coaches are, they care so much, its about the experience not about the results, blah blah. If these coaches were so great, they wouldnt have turn over that looked like the Black Plague. I promise you, if MU/UWM were able to bring in 15 kids like Oshkosh did last year (many other teams have been known to do this too), they would probably find some diamonds in the rough too.

I think I made it perfectly clear that I believe there is a place for DIII running, and developing people who love the sport with racing opportunities. I applaud the rags to riches stories like La Mere, Nelson, Jenkins, Miller and many other wiac alums that were not very good in high school. Without the support of DIII running, their journeys would not have existed. My point was made specifically towards DI talent level runners, who avoid DI running and instead pillage DIII running. Its a spineless move, its indefensible.

Dose of Reality wrote:I applaud the rags to riches stories like La Mere, Nelson, Jenkins, Miller and many other wiac alums that were not very good in high school. Without the support of DIII running, their journeys would not have existed. My point was made specifically towards DI talent level runners, who avoid DI running and instead pillage DIII running. Its a spineless move, its indefensible.

Why would they choose DIII then, if they knew DI would be the better option for them? Not everyone who could do better in DI chooses to go DIII just because they want to stay inside their comfort zone. They might have other reasons; the college might be academically good for them; they want to stay close to home; and so on.

Real Dose of Reality wrote:

Dose of Reality wrote:I applaud the rags to riches stories like La Mere, Nelson, Jenkins, Miller and many other wiac alums that were not very good in high school. Without the support of DIII running, their journeys would not have existed. My point was made specifically towards DI talent level runners, who avoid DI running and instead pillage DIII running. Its a spineless move, its indefensible.

Why would they choose DIII then, if they knew DI would be the better option for them? Not everyone who could do better in DI chooses to go DIII just because they want to stay inside their comfort zone. They might have other reasons; the college might be academically good for them; they want to stay close to home; and so on.

Good luck at Oshkosh, Wesley!

Real Dose of Reality wrote:

Dose of Reality wrote:I applaud the rags to riches stories like La Mere, Nelson, Jenkins, Miller and many other wiac alums that were not very good in high school. Without the support of DIII running, their journeys would not have existed. My point was made specifically towards DI talent level runners, who avoid DI running and instead pillage DIII running. Its a spineless move, its indefensible.

Why would they choose DIII then, if they knew DI would be the better option for them? Not everyone who could do better in DI chooses to go DIII just because they want to stay inside their comfort zone. They might have other reasons; the college might be academically good for them; they want to stay close to home; and so on.

Way to really go for it and challenge yourself in life man. This isn’t the 1800’s, there isn’t a DI school in the country that you couldn’t take a drive or flight home from in less than a day. If you’re a real DI talent and offered even a partial scholarship from a big school, you go for it. You can always crash and burn in honor and then crawl back home to DIII-land.

Some runners choose top D3 schools such as WashU, MIT, or UChicago when they could have gone D1. Anyone choosing a WIAC school over a D1 is making a bad academic decision. There are very few D1 schools with lower academic standards than the WIAC schools. I am actually unaware of any.

Highly selective wrote:

Some runners choose top D3 schools such as WashU, MIT, or UChicago when they could have gone D1. Anyone choosing a WIAC school over a D1 is making a bad academic decision. There are very few D1 schools with lower academic standards than the WIAC schools. I am actually unaware of any.

Well you must never have heard of UW Milwaukee and Green Bay then...

GB and Milwaukee average ACT is 23. UWO average ACT is 22.

Oshkosh less than average wrote:

GB and Milwaukee average ACT is 23. UWO average ACT is 22.

Yes Oshkosh is low but others are higher, and he said he isn’t aware of ANY.

Highly selective wrote:

Some runners choose top D3 schools such as WashU, MIT, or UChicago when they could have gone D1. Anyone choosing a WIAC school over a D1 is making a bad academic decision. There are very few D1 schools with lower academic standards than the WIAC schools. I am actually unaware of any.

I'm afraid you don't know how the divisions work, it isn't organized by academic rigor. Most of the WIAC schools are significantly above average, and in general are fantastic value for the money.

On a sidenote, no one is disputing that UW-Madison is a fantastic school, but it would be laughable to think that A. some student-athletes only got in because of their athletics and B. all students at a more prestigious school are working harder than those at a less prestigious school. Like I said, get some perspective (or maybe just talk to some real people). Also were you implying that's why McKenna Ramos ran poorly? I mean, if that reaffirms your worldview, go ahead and keep those assumptions rolling.

To Dose of Reality; you really need to get some perspective, dude. A good runner going DIII isn't them being a low-life, nor is it "unforgivable." It's a human being, choosing one training environment over the other. There is no guarantee they will run well wherever they go, but maybe they've thought their decision through and have decided their DIII school is the right one.

And the comments about DIII schools having meets set up to qualify for Nationals; yes, it does happen, but if like many of the top DIII runners you can qualify easily for Nationals, then having rabbits running right at the qual. time (say, 14:30 pace) doesn't really help you get that sub-14 you were going for.

And no, I didn't write about the success stories at UWM/Marquette, because I am not that familiar with those programs specifically. What I am familiar with is the condescension that comes from mediocre D1 athletes that try to justify their choice of school by belittling DIII. No one in DIII is saying the divisions are equal; what we're saying is that athletes are athletes (most of whom start school around 18 years old), and we should let them run in the program they desire.

Idk dude, don't know how to convince you that all D1 schools aren't superior to the WIAC, or how to convince you that choosing where to run is a complicated decision that involves more than just access to the most resources. I know athletes that had "D1 talent" that chose to go DIII and they took nothing for granted, worked their asses off and did none of the "pillaging" that you speak of. I'm proud of their decision, and I'm positive they're happy with their choice as well.

No, the divisions are not based on academics but of the top 25 schools, about 80% are D1. Of the top 100, it is even higher than 80%. The WIAC schools have below average standards for entrance. The top ones have an average ACT of 24 and the bottom ones about 22. Somebody throwing in Milwaukee and GB didn’t realize they were baited into it. These are also WI state schools that are on the bottom of the national average for D1 schools. Only UW Madison is a above average. The rest of the system is great for average to below average high school students to get an educationa at a very low price. Other states don’t have these types of options.

So the Wiac fans all try to claim that the guys are faster than they really are. They rarely have somebody capable of making Madison’s roster and now we find out that the standards are so low that their pool is much larger than other schools. Is this why Shiek is going to UWO?

WIAC apologists: there is no shame in the fact that the UW school system is a great value albeit lower standards than the national average. Marquette and UW ARE more difficult to get into. Also, track/xc scholarship allotment is very tiny across all DI programs so the idea that sub 4:20/9:20 runners are getting scholarship offers is silly. Maybe partials, but likely do not match the value WI residents get within UW systems. Academic scholarships and aid are a different matter.

Dose of Reality: there are outliers in every scenario. I do not have examples for what recent WIAC standouts are doing post-grad, but early 2000’s Dan Sutton (UW-L) and David Cisewski (UW-O) are both MDs. Late 80’s Jamie Pollard (UW-O) is the AD at Iowa State. All 3 were DIII national champs at 5000m. Are you telling me they made poor school choices and simply pillaged DIII lesser competition?

At the end of the day, many decisions go into choosing the right school. But not sure why I wasted time posting since everyone’s opinions in the matter are set in stone. Just trying to be an objective commenter.

Wiac wannabe wrote:

So the Wiac fans all try to claim that the guys are faster than they really are. They rarely have somebody capable of making Madison’s roster and now we find out that the standards are so low that their pool is much larger than other schools. Is this why Shiek is going to UWO?

Sheik is going to UWO because he either didn’t take high school seriously, he isn’t smart, or disciplinary issues. UWO was clearly his only option. Guessing UWO and UW have a deal in place to have Wesley grow up a bit over the next year or two before transferring into UW.