Doesn't Russian Doping Scandal Prove Canova is Right about EPO?

Bad science would be using steroids and testosterone to show "EPO works".

I gave you an entire class of athlete, from a pool representing about 85-90% of the world population, spanning the entire EPO-era over two decades.

The undeniable historical fact is that the progression of non-African male best performances during the EPO era was extremely underwhelming.

The undeniable historical fact is that from this very same pool of non-African male athletes from 85%-90% of the world, cyclists excelled universally, while distance runners plateaued universally.

As I writed before, cyclism is a question of muscle power/metabolism, in running there is a great importance of running economy/efficency, so it's logic that a substance like EPO has less impact on running.

I think this is a field that needs to have specific studies, since the variabilities are too many, and the most part are neglected.

Nobody has doubts that EPO can enhance the ability to transport O2, and can increase the VO2 max. Continuing to speak about these facts is a waste of time.

We need to look at the full problem in different perspective.

How already had opportunity to explain here, according to more than 1000 blood tests I had with Italian, African and Chinese athletes, mostly in the period when I was the Italian responsible for middle distances and marathon together Luciano Gigliotti (1985-2000) with the Italian, then during the period 1999-2012 with Kenyan, Tanzanian, Ugandan and Ethiopian, and finally in 2014 with Chinese, I found something extremely interesting, that in some case the "official physiology" can't explain :

1) I had Kenyan athletes training at sea level in Torino for about 4 following months. One of them was Paul Kosgei, who won WHM Championships in 2002 and in 2004 bettered the WR of 25 km. I had with him blood tests in the lab of the University every two weeks. While his blood values immediately coming from altitude presented high MCV (about 100, while for people at sea level, athletes included, the norm is 82-88) and not many RBC, at the end of the period at sea level his values became very similar the values of local athletes, with an increase of RBC and the diminution of MCV. This trend was similar for other Kenyans and Tanzanians remaining, and training, for long time at sea level. This fact makes me thinking that the blood values of African athletes don't depend on a genetic factor, but on the reason they live and training in altitude for long periods of time, without any important interruption.

2) In the Italian Team, we had a big variation of the levels, clearly depending on genetic basic differences. The two extremes were Gelindo Bordin, who won Olympic Marathon in Seoul 1988 with 12.9 Hb and 39.7 Hct, and Genny Di Napoli, national record holder of 1500m with 3'32"78, normally with values of 18.5 and 52. When Genny had Hb of 17, his feeling was to have anaemia...

This clearly means that every athlete (probably every person) must be studied in LONGITUDINAL way, while every study considering the AVERAGE of many people, carried out in TRASVERSAL way, can't give any valid data, looking at the individual differences existing among different persons.

3) About Chinese athletes, I had the opportunity to have for a period of 8 weeks (training camp in altitude in Duoba at 2400m, before Asian Games 2014) blood tests EVERY WEEK for all the Team (22 athletes). So, I had 170 tests, since in Duoba there is a very good lab and I wanted, for the first time, understanding the TREND of changing the values every week (not only BEFORE and AFTER altitude, but DURING).

I already, time ago, published the tests in some post (I don't remember the original name of the thread), but the strange thing is that the athletes who were able to improve in dramatic way (from 2'07" to 1'59"48 in 800m, from 15'55" to 15'12" and 31'53" in 5000/10000m, from 10'05" to 9'35" in 3000 steeple) competed in Incheon (Korea) WITH VALUES LOWER THAN BEFORE GOING TO ALTITUDE, while athletes showing a big increase in their "classic" values (Hct, Hb, RBC) were not able to improve.

This fact makes me thinking that the REAL effect of altitude training, for athletes "responders", is not connected with the level of Hct or Hb, or with the number of erythrocytes. In other words, there is some other factor that can change the level of training, and consequently the level of the performance, IN MY OPINION NOT INFLUENCED BY HIGH LEVELS OF HCT AND HB.

So, when I say that EPO doesn't work for very strict group of top runners, I don't care if with EPO they can enhance their values : I never tried, but I suppose EPO can produce this effect. WHAT I SAY IS THAT THIS EFFECT, in the opposite way of what the "official physiology" explains, IS NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE FINAL PERFIRMANCE.

The competition among people having higher Hct / Hb doesn't exist. What exists, is the competition among athletes who want to run fast, and at the end the winner is the fastest on the track or on the road, not who has the higher Hct.

I start from a very simple fact : ALL THE BEST ATHLETES IN THE WORLD THAT I KNOW (not only the one I coach) RAN THEIR BEST TIMES COMPLETELY CLEAN, and many of them are the current WR holders.

I can speak of Rudisha, Asbel Kiprop, Silas Kiplagat, Ronald Kwemoi, Kenenisa Bekele, Isaac Songok, Thomas Longosiwa, Caleb Ndiku, Augustine Choge, Nicholas Kemboi, Ahmed Hassan, Moses Mosop, Eliud Kipchoge, Wilson Kipsang, Saaeed Shaheen (Stephen Cherono), Jairus Birech, Geoffrey Kamworor, Faith Kipyegon, Vivian Cheruiyot, Dorcus Inzikuru, Florence Kiplagat, Mary Keitany, and many others that at the moment I forget.

I know some athlete used doping, but, apart very few exceptions, they never reached the top, so I don't see any reason, looking at their result, for thinking that EPO works.

If we agree that EPO can increase the ability to transport O2, but at that level, with "responders" to altitude, doesn't increase the performances, of course the assumption of EPO must have some opposite effect in the body, creating inhibition in some function that works better without synthetic EPO.

Can it be the increase of viscosity ? Can it be the increased need of using more glycogen at the same speed ?

If, for example, the last hypothesis can be correct, we can explain why EPO works with short distances, but not with long distances when the training in altitude is very hard and correct. In fact, the final goal of physiological changes for a marathon runner is TO REDUCE THE CONSUMPTION OF GLYCOGEN AT MARATHON SPEED, and, if with EPO we can increase the power of the engine, but at the same time the consumption of fuel, at the end we do something AGAINST the right training for the marathon.

There are many factors to study, that NEVER were studied before, and it's completely useless to continue to say that the trend is the same for everybody, because the human body works in the same way with everybody. The principles are the same, but the PARTICULAR EFFECTS are not the same, and this is the reason because somebody is an extra-class athlete (like Bolt, Bekele, Michael Johnson, Edwin Moses for example), somebody is a top champion but a little bit inferior as pure talent, somebody is a good athlete, somebody doesn't have any attitude.

How the same training produces different results applied to different athletes (individualization of training), also doping can produce different effects, and there is a moment, when the training in altitude is very hard, very smart and with big continuity, where the "accumulation" of the two effects on the individual physiology (training + doping) is no more possible.

This, of course, limited to the blood doping. Nobody can deny the strong effects of steroids, that are not reachable with clean training only.

"But it took two more years and two more regimens, each lasting four weeks, before Hesch’s performances showed drastic improvement, Hesch said.

At 7 a.m. on Aug. 19, Hesch toed the starting line at the Rock ’n’ Roll Providence Half Marathon in Providence, R.I. In a field of more than 5,000 runners, Hesch raced to the front alongside Ethiopia’s Fikadu Lemma and Demesse Tefera.

Lemma took the lead, and Hesch, as any other experienced road runner would, tucked in behind him and drafted. His legs felt strong, but sluggish, as they clipped along averaging almost 12 miles per hour. Hesch had run a four-minute mile two days before at the GNC Live Well Liberty Mile in Pittsburgh, finishing fourth.

Through the first several miles of the half-marathon, Hesch said, the lead pack went out at what he felt like was a jogging pace. They began to accelerate and pull away from the group of runners behind them.

“Your running feels like what you imagine when you see all those Kenyan runners floating down the road,” Hesch said about competing with the aid of EPO. “And two to three weeks in your cycle, you start feeling like that yourself.”

At Mile 10, Tefera fell behind, and Lemma looked at Hesch as if to say, “Are you going to do any of the work?” Hesch took the lead and decided to test him with another surge. Lemma eventually pulled off to the side and started jogging.

Easing into the finish chute in his Team USA jersey, Hesch stopped a foot away from the finish line, laid down on his stomach on the road, took a whiff of the asphalt centimeters from his nose and performed five push-ups, a pre-victory celebration."

The Guardian:

Ramzi

"just after his 22nd birthday, he finished 14th in the 1500m at the Stockholm grand prix in 3:44:85. He had endured injury problems but he was no more than an also-ran on the circuit. That year he and two compatriots accepted an offer to join the Bahrain military and improved their training condition. He continued to work with Boulami.

That same year Boulami's brother and protégé Brahim slashed two seconds from his world record in the steeplechase. A couple of weeks later he tested positive for EPO and his record was scratched. A two-year ban ensued but now Khalid could turn his attention to Ramzi. His rise was meteoric.

In 2004 he won a world indoor silver medal over 800m. But then, early in that Olympic summer, he stunned everyone by ending the four-year winning streak of El Guerrouj and lowering his personal best by nine seconds"

Did people hit the top using EPO, CERA, etc. Yes they did.

What do you want to demonstrate with your last two posts ?

That EPO works with athletes of medium level such as Hersch ? We already knew this, nothing to share with top athletes of Kenya and Ethiopia.

That EPO works with athletes of short distances who NEVER used long periods of training in high altitude ?

Also in this case we well knew the situation, typical of Moroccan training in Ifrane (that is 1600m only). And, in any case, they were athletes running events lasting less than 10 minutes.

I always am waiting for some name of Kenyan or Ethiopian top runner who was positive for doping (EPO, not steroids), apart Rita Jeptoo, who, before being a cheater, was a "perfect idiot" using something that finished her career, destroyed her life, and DIDN'T GIVE ANY ADVANTAGE FOR THE PERFORMANCE (in spite of what people here can suppose).

But I agree with Obvious : the fact no Russian men were able to run fast, doesn't have any link with what I say, that is strictly connected with top talented athletes, born, living and training in altitude. And this is a very strict class of subjects, probably owner of particular physiological and morphological talent, that makes them different from normal athletes (for example, with 3-4 months of tough and smart training in high altitude they are able to increase their total volume of blood of 25%, when the "basic" physiology speaks about a max increase of 5%).

How many millions of dollars poured into Kenya and Ethiopia?

whitewashed wrote:

Nike sponshorship can vary from getting a few pairs of shoes each year to be being sponsored like Lance Arsmtrong. You are not seriously suggesting that those at bottom of the Nike sponsorship spectrum were able to fly in private jets to Italy and Spain to see doctors such as Ferrari or Fuentes?

Tell us about the millions of dollars China poured into to their men's distance running program in the 1990s/2000s.

Tell us about the millions of dollars Russia poured into their men's distance running program in the 1990s/2000s.

Name all the millionaire athletes who went to visit Leonid Shvetsov for doping assistance.

Do you honestly believe an amateur ordering a few weeks EPO on the internet from China (which did help him a lot over a few weeks BTW) is the same thing as a Lance Armstrong style doping program?

So, is that why some of the Kenyan runners have been using steriods? I've often wondered why such a talented, genetically gifted group of distance runners would resort to PEDs in the first place? 🤔. A reported *40* doping postives since 2011 and allegations of bribery & corruption ("Athletics doping: Kenya misses WADA deadline." Dan Roan/BBC Sports/021116):

Granted, most of those 40 positives were for steroids, however, there were still some for EPO. And neither Kenya nor Ethiopia are part of the ABP program because of no WADA-accredited labs in the region to conduct the blood tests (and yet Kenya was allowed to compete at Rio. Lol).

I've been very critical of the Russian women mid-D runners benefiting greatly from their cocktail of 02-vector doping & steriods. But some of the top Kenyans using roids...what's up with that? 😕.

You could add an enormous amount to the scientific knowledge by publishing the thousands of blood test results that you have or by working with a researcher who would analyze and publish them.

I'm not sure why all of this is not obvious to Mr. Obvious. I've already stated it 15 different ways.In my "study", the "intervention" under observation is "time", something we always know.The population I've selected is non-African male athletes, specifically those producing times between 1990-2009 that were faster than non-African male athletes produced in 1985 or before.The analysis is a measure of progression, as a function of the post-1990 (inclusive) times and the pre-1985 (inclusive) time.This gives me a very good idea about how times have improved, in an era defined as the EPO-era, for a set of athletes representing 85-90% of the population.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

In your approach all of the same issues arise. I've asked repeatedly how many of the runners in your sample took epo. You have no idea. Honestly you can't even identify who is in your study population.

This is no study. It lacks all of the basic elements. Including defining the study population, tracking the intervention, and even a shred of actual data or analysis.

no

coe's era had blood-doping which is what epo does except with less heart failure risk from a blatant transfusion

who doesn't ???

but where were the blood-passport to show blood doping from increased haematocrit or reticulocyte count like nowdays ???

is this a joke ???

nowdays you have to fill in whereabout-forms for 365 days/year & available for testing everyday between 0600 - 2400 hours

some athletes get tested 1/2 dozen times/month randomly

what on earth whereabout-forms did coe fill in ???

how many times a month was he tested a month without any notice at home, or Italy or Switzerland ???

is this a joke ???

years of accumulated blood-doping woud virtually certainly have a carry on effect for few years after

coe was finished by most experienced observers mind by '85 & it is a miracle ??!!! he got a pb in '86

making a move to outlaw blood-doping in '85 was when likely he & most every seasoned observer back then believed was at the tail-end of his career

is this a joke

any seasoned fan expected coe to quit by '86 from the absolute thrashings from cruz/cram he'd got in '85

backing block-blood-doping woud seem more protective of his clockings than any altruistism

is this a joke ???

see above about 1/2-dozen random tests/week between 0600 - 2400 & filling in incredibly detailed whereabouts forms for every hour of those for whole week/month/year & what did coe have to do ???

is this a joke ???

coe had plenty of opportunities between '79 - '81 to run < 3'30 but kept running mile races or not taking over 1500s early enough & by scruff of neck

he shouda run 1500s after Stockholm-'81 but kept pluging away at mile when no barriers available for him as he was never going to break 3'45 whilst 3'30 was there as huge barrier

Deanouk wrote:The GDR system would obviously test internally and not send their athletes into a championships if the peds hadn't cleared. This wouldn't have been quite the same in the U.K., and some other countries, when there was random out of season and competition testing much earlier than the IAAF

is this a joke ???

proper random testing means 1/2-dozen tests/month randomly between 0600 - 2400

were UK doing that ?

With regards blood doping, this seems to have been confined to a few Finns and then later the Italians. I can't recall anyone from any other country being found participating or admitting to this practice!? It seems a retrospective illusion that everyone was blood doping at this time. Again, I think the use of blood doping during this period has been widely exaggerated

is this a joke ?

the ruskies absurdly didn't follow the blood-doping route thinking it was not a good doping method, which was obviously hugely wrong

they likely surmised there was too much risk of heart-failure from big transfusions, which maya taken a 1'44.0 guy down to 1'41.0 overnight, but wouda likely killed him from heart-failure or an embolus immediately after, unlike the finns who likely experimented with small transfusions, until optimising best transfusion regime to take a viren, who was likely never going to break 13'30 / 28'00 clean down to ~ 13'05 / 27'15 in munich

vasala looked in 1'43.0/1'43.5 / 3'30/3'31 shape here & that wouda given ovett/coe all the nightmares they coud ever have dreamed off if he had carried his shape into late '70s

ruskie scientists, amongst best in world, apart from building tanks for ww2, have been renowned for incaution

eh ?

why on earth woud they consider walker's the best sample to use ?

he was ancient & still running fast

that sounds a recipe for doping more than anyone !

if a sample was to be used, it shouda been scott's as was workhouse running virtually week-in-week-out for years & readily available for testing anytime

then wrong choice

32y & 3'50 back then was reeking of suspicion !

eh ?

is this a joke ?

bob hayes ran his legendary 10.06WR on dirt chewed-up by the finish of 20k walk earlier

they did a hasty rake for his lane-1 because it was Olympic final

what makes you think they had time to "pristinize" Ryun's tracks when there was likely 10 or 15 minutes between his races & previous one ?

do you have evidence that they raked, let alone steam-rollered lane 1 in Ryun's 3'38.2 in dusseldorf with the 10k run immediately before ?

is this a joke ?

I have also run on asphalt & dirt & mondo in my life in similar shape & I got huge difference between the 3

I got 1.25s/lap difference between dirt/mondo & 0.75s lap between asphalt/mondo & I used to run as a 3rd tier metronome, but my 1 talent was I coud metronome 4 laps in my absurdly slow pace which I offer huge admiration to the 4'20-milers here who are hugely more talented than I ever was

your "statistical" assertion has as much useless validity as mine, but I at least ran mine over 4 laps, not a 3k or 5k with much huger variation in lap times

what were your lap splt times for each race + weather + condition of tracks ?

the assertion asphalt is as fast as mondo is laughable !

if that was the case, we woud be seeing games/diamond league on asphalt today as it is lot cheaper than a mondo !

you clearly have no idea about Ryun

he was finished by '68 with mono & did incredibly well to reach games 1500 final

how on earth otherwise woud you expain this guy who coud run 2 laps in this incredible manner bombing out in 800 trials 2y later ???

try 1/2-dozen++ secs quicker

is this a joke ?

first time he did serious altitude was in '67

he already held the 880y/mile records from '66 without any altitude training

is this a joke ?

Asbel's weight-training is so primitive & miniscule it is utter nonsense !!!

it consisted of dragging a tyre from a rope tied around his waist !!!

what on earth do you think his 3'26 coud be if he did some serious weight-training like mo + any semi-competent nutritionist ???

no

it is Kenyans just tightening up mileage by more intensive road-work but no serious weight-training which woud improve their times immensely

no

it's not

the kenyans don't train in any way similar to those euros & have stoopidly done no serious weights

is this a joke ?

this was only 6y before Ryun crushed the mile WR !!!

you think an Olympic dirt track was in better shape than Ryun's ones ?

you believe Ryun's races all had rolled tracks but they didn't for elliott's race ?

is this a joke ?

no one believed they helped middle or distance runners in '60s/early-70s

how on earth was Ryun supposed to be able to even afford steroids if he had to take part-time jobs on to make ends meet when running ???

you think dope is free ?

is this a joke ?

he had bronchitis & likely respiratory distress as a result

is this a joke ?

baumann was a convicted doper !!!

rupp has run 26'44 !!!

sal said if not for slow pace to 8k he wouda run ~ 26'35 !!!, which I entirely agree as I sw that run live on webcast

he jogged to 8k & blasted last 2k for 26'44

he had 26'35 in him that day which is quantum leap better than kennedy's 12'58

if rupp had run & got ideal 5k that day, he wouda been looking at

~ 12'45 / 12'47

not if you analyse properly

no

it works for them to, but lesser extent by logic as their erythrocyte level is already very high

is this a total joke ?

do you have any clue about big-pharma ?

they are trying to develop best side-effect-free epo for the multi-billion $ anaemia market, mostly from marrow or renal failure not some illegal use in doping !!!

"numerous different epo's have been produced to cater for differing genotypes"

is biggest joke i have seen posted here in years !!!

epo works on every elite

it is just a question of degree

you have to guestimate what it does to your 400 improvement & guestimate what it does to your 800 & get possibilities

I think it shoud start with a 400 / 800 elite as that is most basic for running here on this board

let's start with 46.00 / 1'42.00

that line of fit is

46.00 / 1'42.00 ->

3'28.25

7'34.01

13'22.74

28'50.48

1"05'34

2"19'57

then, conjecture is what epo which helps more for increasing distance does

let's suppose it helps 400 by 0.5s in extreme circumstances but proportionately more + for 800 by say a 1.25s

( 400 & 800 are way way too far already distances for increased erythrocytes not to have taken their eventual effect )

->

45.50 / 1'40.75 ->

3'25.49

7'27.53

13'10.80

28'23.47

1"04'30

2"17'35

I am sure from empirical approach, if you

"bucket on" enough epo or blood transfusion

if you want to go just short of dying, epo/blood-tranfusions can probably improve your times by :

~

400 - 0.5s

800 - 1.25s

1500 - 3.00s

3k - 7.00s

5k - 12.00s

10k - 28.00s

1/2 M - 1'04

M - 2'22

work out implications from above

( I have posted similar umpteen times in past ~ 10y but no one looks until a 500+ post thread :

above is what epo can help by & if you believe all wrs are doped, what you shoud add onto them )

rekrunneronce you or wiggo are finished wasting your time on this utter nonsense thread, can I ask you, if you have maple or mathematica or to have a look at this serious problem on :"how far is mile start line on outer lane from start line"here is original question :

can you or wiggo spend useful neuronal activity on much more important problem on how anyone ever worked out mile start line !!!

You didn't answer my question. Which country did not improve any national distance records during the EPO era? Britain, Finland, NZ and Sweden are the only serious countries I could find. Not to pick on the Finns but they were widely accused of blood doping, which leaves a total of about 76m people out of 6b people residing on planet earth at this time that did not see an improvement in national distance running during the EPO era. That is a statistically insignificant sample size to back up your arguments.

The Italian Records were established in the following years :

800m : Fiasconaro 1'43"7 (1973, without any doping, from a "Wild" runner coming from 400m)

1500m : Di Napoli 3'32"78 (1990)

5000m : Antibo 13'05"56 (1990, without pacers in a total "solo")

10000m : Antibo 27'16"50 (1989, after a period in altitude at Sestriere without training for a sprain that stopped him for two weeks)

3000 SC : Panetta 8'08"07 (winning WCh 1987)

During your "EPO era" nobody among the Italian athletes was able not to improve some record, but also to arrive "near" these records.

Believe me, the reasons because in the Western Countries nobody was able to approach the results we had BEFORE the EPO era don't depend on the improvement of the tests, or on the adoption of the Biological Passport.

The reason is that in our Countries is now almost impossible to recruit young runners with the right talent, physical but especially mental, for becoming champions. If I compare the training of the Italian athletes of the period 1970-1990 with the training of today, I see the same difference we have between a Fiat 500 and a Mercedes Formula One.

One of the biggest mistakes the most part of people do is to link the trend of athletic events ALWAYS and ONLY with doping and training, without thinking of the deep social differences between the life of 50-30 years ago and the life of today. If we want to improve the "quality of life" cancelling the fatigue and creating machines working for us, it's today very difficult to find young people accepting the same level of fatigue, sufferance and physical pain that athletes (not African) were able to reach 40 years ago.

Not considering the physical talent, but only the training approach, how many Prefontaine, Walker, Dixon, Quax, Salazar, Hermens, Nenow, Ryun, Scott, Ovett, Coe, Cram, Bedford, Viren, Lopes, Mamede there are today ?

And, also in Africa, this type of talent becomes less frequent, and every year the areas producing running talents become smaller.

Also taking EPO, a donkey can't become a racing horse.

Redemption, maybe you don't read what I write (or wrote), or you are very hard and slow in the ability to understand.

Where can you find the 40 positive Kenyan runners in the World lists ? Do you think there is some of them (I repeat, apart the well known cases of Mathew Kisorio, who clearly explained his doping assumption depended on his frustration after "exploding" in the last 7 km of Boston Marathon, and of Rita Jeptoo, cheated by bad people around her and having a brain of small size...) in top 50 in the World, or in top 10 in Kenya ?

And, tell me, do you know some Country that goes to test OOC national athletes, in any event, who are not in the top 10 in the national lists ?

Now, do you know in what position a Marathon runner for 2:08 is in Kenya at the end of a season ? He's number 31. This means that there is NO COUNTRY in the world testing a national athlete of that level OOC.

About the best in the World, in 2015 there were 135 athletes tested OOC, directly from WADA or IAAF, so the idea that they could do what they wanted with doping BECAUSE THERE WERE NO TESTS is a wrong idea, and who continues to speak about this for creating doubts about the top Kenyans is a liar.

The problem is not if there was a National Antidoping Agency working in the Country for the best athletes or not. The problem was WHO HAS TO PAY ALL THE TESTS THAT KENYAN TOP ATHLETES CONTINUE TO DO, and this is a real problem, because it's not possible to use the 5% of all the WADA budget for testing athletes of 2 Countries (Kenya and Ethiopia).

Different problem is the corruption, that NOTHING has to do with the antidoping. Or you think that the fact the Chief of the Kenyan delegation in Rio was arrested with big part of the official NIKE equipment hidden under his bed can have something to do with doping ? Or do you really think that an official as Mwangi, who knows the salary of a Police soldier is about 17,000 Kenyan Shilling per month (less than 170 USD), can ask 25,000 USD to the two women running 400m/400 hs (Koki and Zakaya) for covering their doping (so, the equivalent of more than 13 years of salary), athletes who never had a manager and never competed out of the Country ? Don't you think this seems a little bit more to a internal war for the positions in the Federation (in fact, Mwangi was cleared by IAAF, but now is out of AK Federation) ?

You like to speak about problems you don't know, in a superficial way, basing your "truth" on some article in newspapers, that NEVER are interested to go at the bottom of the problems (when don't BUILD DIRECTLY the problem, like in the case of the reportage of Seppelt about Kenyan doping : 10% true, 90% built in order to create a scoop).

And, believe me, inside IAAF they well know this kind of problems.

Hi Renato, I don't actually disagree with much of what you have posted. I have argued repeatedly that the drop off in the 1990s seen in some countries was due to declining interest in being a distance track runner and a smaller pool of talented runners. But this does not mean that EPO doesn't work.

But this might make you angry but I didn't include Italy (or Italia) because:

A) the 800m was listed with Andrea Longo, who probably took epo (among other things).

B) the 1500m though 10000m had been set since 1985 (in order to please rekrunner's cut off point, again he watches too much Back to the Future).

C) now this might make you angry and you have every right to be grumpy, when I saw the period from which the Italian 1500m to 10000m records were set I raised an eyebrow (1987-1990).

The truth is your Mercedes Formula One analogy is more accurate because that is the occupation most Italian teenage males want to pursue (or be Valentino Rossi).

So you say that Africa also has a declining pool of talent. Because there has been a considerable stalling in 1500m times coming out of Kenya from +15 years ago, the difference between Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha is minimal over 800m. But Kenyan and Ethiopian 5,000 & 10,000 times have gone backwards. Interestingly, a couple of days ago Zane Robertson posted on Instagram a training session in Kenya of "7 x 2k never short of training partners here" I counted 39 elite Kenyans in the photo, which didn't include anyone running on the track or those that had finished already or Zane himself. So Kenya does still have a sizeable population of runners.