The article was initially entiteld, "Zane Robertston!!!!" but we changed it to make it more descriptive. Here is our article on his bust and fake excuses (he said he went to a hospital for a COvid-19 vaccine but they gave him EPO instead) which points out that in 2016 he expressed frutation at the amount of doping in the sport:
I have never fabricated a single number, you liar, you notorious liar, you king of all liars.
I've correctly stated that before 1980 Kenyans have set 10 WRs. After weeks of deep researches on your side, you came up with your wonderful list of 2 Kenyan WRs before 1980 (adding the important facts that Kenyans have set no WRs in the 3 Miles and the 6 Miles before 1980 - one of your very few correct statements; also anybody should decide how helpful this is for the subject).
80% down on one occasion, 400% up on another - wrong by a factor of 5 seems to be the standard in your statistics.
You call others doping apologists for correcting wrong numbers - nothing more to know about the Armstrongliar.
You are wrong, again. I asked you to specify the world records from 800-marathon Kenyans set before 1980. There were only two - Keino's 3k and 5k records. You just chucked put a figure of 10 records, without substance. Not the 800, the 880, the 1k, 1500, mile, 2k, 2 miles, 3 miles, 6 miles, 10k or marathon. Your delusions are without limits. But there is a record they are setting as we speak - for the worst doper in distance running.
You never asked to "specify" the Kenyan WRs before 1980. You claimed the no. is 2. How many times you added they have not set any WR in the 6 Miles? An event not contested since the early 1960s anymore.
You are discussing extremely difficult questions like the rate of doping in different countries (just look at the situations in Russia, India, Kenya and Ethiopia) in dozens of threads.
You claim to have all the answers. But you fail completely regularly in such easy questions like the no. of record setters.
It's like someone claiming to have proved the Riemann hopethesis who doesn't understand the concept of complex numbers.
You are wrong, again. I asked you to specify the world records from 800-marathon Kenyans set before 1980. There were only two - Keino's 3k and 5k records. You just chucked put a figure of 10 records, without substance. Not the 800, the 880, the 1k, 1500, mile, 2k, 2 miles, 3 miles, 6 miles, 10k or marathon. Your delusions are without limits. But there is a record they are setting as we speak - for the worst doper in distance running.
You never asked to "specify" the Kenyan WRs before 1980. You claimed the no. is 2. How many times you added they have not set any WR in the 6 Miles? An event not contested since the early 1960s anymore.
You are discussing extremely difficult questions like the rate of doping in different countries (just look at the situations in Russia, India, Kenya and Ethiopia) in dozens of threads.
You claim to have all the answers. But you fail completely regularly in such easy questions like the no. of record setters.
It's like someone claiming to have proved the Riemann hopethesis who doesn't understand the concept of complex numbers.
List the Kenyan world records for the following distances below, before 1980.
- 800m
- 880y
- 1000m
-1500m
- mile
- 3000m
- 3000 steepechase
-2 mile
- 3 mile
- 5000m
- 6 mile
- 10000m
- marathon
Because you were born yesterday, you are also not aware that the imperial distances dominated the sport right up until the 1970's. They had more status then than the metric distances.
I am not "a self-proclaimed legal expert". I have a degree in law and was admitted to the Bar in my country. That isn't "self-proclaimed". That kind of "expertise" is more your territory, which I understand is essentially that of a bean counter.
At this stage, I'm happy to go with the description of the AIU, as it will not be made carelessly or without foundation. But you will find a way to dispute it, because Kenyan dopers are always innocent victims in your book.
I was admitted to many bars in many countries after I turned 21.
Unsurprisingly, you didn't answer the legal question. Surely with your self-proclaimed law degree and bar admission, you are in an educated position to provide much more depth of clarity to the bean counters. There would be no need for you to continue to resort to personal attacks in domains where you actually possess knowledge.
Criminal conduct involving frauds sounds like a serious accusation, and the AIU is just an enforcement agency for sports rules governed by contract law.
Is the AIU disciplinary panel right to say that these attempted tamperings rise to the level of a crime? Wouldn't they have a duty to refer such crimes -- allegedly committed against the AIU, so they have a vested direct interest and standing -- to the appropriate criminal law enforcement agencies under existing criminal statutes?
Seems like you are always the first one to dispute or clarify all things legal, e.g. like how "innocent until proven guilty" is a legal principle afforded only to persons accused of crimes, and that such principles would not apply to athletes charged with violating sports rules, presumed guilty by a principle of "strict liability".
If this attempted tampering does constitute criminal conduct, then shouldn't you be the one reminding us that these Kenyan athletes, along with those accused of a sophisticated medically saavy operation, have a moral right to a "presumption of innocence" until it has been proven by the prosecution to a trier of facts beyond reasonable doubt. I believe that's not just my book, but also your books from law school.
Do you suggest that comparing attempted tampering to criminal fraud was not made carelessly or without foundation?
Wouldn't "bean counting" be a degree in Accounting? I have University degrees in Science and Engineering. This included courses in math and logic and statistics and chemistry and physics and biology, so I feel pretty comfortable interpreting numbers in context.
It's comicallly curious to imagine you holding a law book in one hand, and a pitchfork in the other, hopping onto the band wagon, shouting at sceptics and heretics as lemmings drive the bandwagon over a cliff.
Your first sentence shows what an ignoramus you are. The rest of your post merely makes the eyes glaze. When I want to offer a legal opinion I shall. One small point, however, that escapes you is that the AIU is a sports agency, enforcing the rules that govern sport, not a law enforcement agency. They are not the police. But you will always argue what you can to diminish what they have said - when it suits you. It is a disease with you.
You weren't able to refute any of the facts I posted above listing the lack of Kenyan records in every event from the 800 to the marathon (except the 3k and 5k - Keino and Rono). But I understand your difficulty, as you show with your persistent use of "beeing" that you aren't proficient in even basic English let alone the subject you are attempting to discuss.
You are flapping around like a helpless fish out of water.
After ignoring this particular sideshow for months, in about 5 minutes, I was able to find and confirm Kenyans setting 10 different world records before 1980, just looking at lists in Wikipedia.
With that quick search, I am able to refute one of your facts, twice, as the events in your list contains two records. Furthermore, your list of events is incomplete, as four world records were set outside your list of events.
But enough clues. I guess the game is to let you flap like a fish.
You never asked to "specify" the Kenyan WRs before 1980. You claimed the no. is 2. How many times you added they have not set any WR in the 6 Miles? An event not contested since the early 1960s anymore.
You are discussing extremely difficult questions like the rate of doping in different countries (just look at the situations in Russia, India, Kenya and Ethiopia) in dozens of threads.
You claim to have all the answers. But you fail completely regularly in such easy questions like the no. of record setters.
It's like someone claiming to have proved the Riemann hopethesis who doesn't understand the concept of complex numbers.
List the Kenyan world records for the following distances below, before 1980.
- 800m
- 880y
- 1000m
-1500m
- mile
- 3000m
- 3000 steepechase
-2 mile
- 3 mile
- 5000m
- 6 mile
- 10000m
- marathon
Because you were born yesterday, you are also not aware that the imperial distances dominated the sport right up until the 1970's. They had more status then than the metric distances.
No, the imperial distances didn't dominate the sport until the 1970s.
At the Olympics the 3 Miles and 6 Miles were never contested. At the Commonwealth Games for the last time in 1966. On very few occasions these events were contested in the 1970s and also in the 1960s just rarely. At the big european meetings - where most of the fast races were run even in the 1960s and 1970s - just the 5000m and the 10000 were run After around 1965, nobody cared about the 3 Miles and 6 Miles records anymore.
Clarke and Keino have set 5 WRs over 5000m and 10000m in the 1960s in Australia or New Zealand! Your statement is just laughable.
Great that the 880y record has such an importance for you. An event less than 0.6% longer than the 800m (even the Mile is 7.3% longer than the 1500m) which always has had the much better record since the late 1930s.
Kenyans have never set a record in the 1600m and the 3200m. You forgot to add this interesting fact.
You are flapping around like a helpless fish out of water.
After ignoring this particular sideshow for months, in about 5 minutes, I was able to find and confirm Kenyans setting 10 different world records before 1980, just looking at lists in Wikipedia.
With that quick search, I am able to refute one of your facts, twice, as the events in your list contains two records. Furthermore, your list of events is incomplete, as four world records were set outside your list of events.
But enough clues. I guess the game is to let you flap like a fish.
List them, in the events I referred to above.
Is that how you got your degree? -- getting other people to do your homework?
Your first sentence shows what an ignoramus you are. The rest of your post merely makes the eyes glaze. When I want to offer a legal opinion I shall. One small point, however, that escapes you is that the AIU is a sports agency, enforcing the rules that govern sport, not a law enforcement agency. They are not the police. But you will always argue what you can to diminish what they have said - when it suits you. It is a disease with you.
Your claim to have a law degree and admission to the bar is just another self-proclamation.
Are your eyes so glazed that you can't read the post?
I didn't miss your small point, but made precisely that point. You don't need to be the police to refer a crime to the police, especially when the AIU considers themselves to be the victim of the crime.
How does it possibly diminish what the AIU says if I ask you, with your law degree and bar admission credentials, to explain it to the bean counters? Is the very act of asking you to defend something itself diminishing by association -- as if you agree, the credibility rating plummets?
I get why you struggle with numbers -- but this is supposed to be your field where you say you have an advanced education.
Yes or no: Do you concur that the conduct rises to the level of a crime?
Yes or no: Aren't suspected criminals innocent until proven guilty?
List the Kenyan world records for the following distances below, before 1980.
- 800m
- 880y
- 1000m
-1500m
- mile
- 3000m
- 3000 steepechase
-2 mile
- 3 mile
- 5000m
- 6 mile
- 10000m
- marathon
Because you were born yesterday, you are also not aware that the imperial distances dominated the sport right up until the 1970's. They had more status then than the metric distances.
No, the imperial distances didn't dominate the sport until the 1970s.
At the Olympics the 3 Miles and 6 Miles were never contested. At the Commonwealth Games for the last time in 1966. On very few occasions these events were contested in the 1970s and also in the 1960s just rarely. At the big european meetings - where most of the fast races were run even in the 1960s and 1970s - just the 5000m and the 10000 were run After around 1965, nobody cared about the 3 Miles and 6 Miles records anymore.
Clarke and Keino have set 5 WRs over 5000m and 10000m in the 1960s in Australia or New Zealand! Your statement is just laughable.
Great that the 880y record has such an importance for you. An event less than 0.6% longer than the 800m (even the Mile is 7.3% longer than the 1500m) which always has had the much better record since the late 1930s.
Kenyans have never set a record in the 1600m and the 3200m. You forgot to add this interesting fact.
You know nothing about the history of the sport. Until the '70's, the imperial distances were contested more often than the metric distances in the western world - which dominated t and f. You obviously see athletics through the distorting lens of a nation that has come to lead the world for doping in distance running.
But it is telling that you can't identify the Kenyan world record-holders before 1980 in the events identified above. That is because aside from Keino and Rono, there weren't any.
Your first sentence shows what an ignoramus you are. The rest of your post merely makes the eyes glaze. When I want to offer a legal opinion I shall. One small point, however, that escapes you is that the AIU is a sports agency, enforcing the rules that govern sport, not a law enforcement agency. They are not the police. But you will always argue what you can to diminish what they have said - when it suits you. It is a disease with you.
Your claim to have a law degree and admission to the bar is just another self-proclamation.
Are your eyes so glazed that you can't read the post?
I didn't miss your small point, but made precisely that point. You don't need to be the police to refer a crime to the police, especially when the AIU considers themselves to be the victim of the crime.
How does it possibly diminish what the AIU says if I ask you, with your law degree and bar admission credentials, to explain it to the bean counters? Is the very act of asking you to defend something itself diminishing by association -- as if you agree, the credibility rating plummets?
I get why you struggle with numbers -- but this is supposed to be your field where you say you have an advanced education.
Yes or no: Do you concur that the conduct rises to the level of a crime?
Yes or no: Aren't suspected criminals innocent until proven guilty?
So the AIU hasn't uncovered what appears to be "criminal fraud" unless they report it to the police (who, incidentally would have access to their report)? So what description should the AIU have used for what their investigation revealed? Your favorite of "Kenyan athletes are once again innocent victims"?
BTW, another top Kenyan has fallen. Norah Jeruto (currently running for Kazakhstan), the winner of the last WC steeple, has been suspended by the AIU. It really doesn't make much difference whether almost one Kenyan a week or two is busted; the train of disgraced dopers emerging from that country simply never ends. Like your nauseating efforts to explain it away.
No, the imperial distances didn't dominate the sport until the 1970s.
At the Olympics the 3 Miles and 6 Miles were never contested. At the Commonwealth Games for the last time in 1966. On very few occasions these events were contested in the 1970s and also in the 1960s just rarely. At the big european meetings - where most of the fast races were run even in the 1960s and 1970s - just the 5000m and the 10000 were run After around 1965, nobody cared about the 3 Miles and 6 Miles records anymore.
Clarke and Keino have set 5 WRs over 5000m and 10000m in the 1960s in Australia or New Zealand! Your statement is just laughable.
Great that the 880y record has such an importance for you. An event less than 0.6% longer than the 800m (even the Mile is 7.3% longer than the 1500m) which always has had the much better record since the late 1930s.
Kenyans have never set a record in the 1600m and the 3200m. You forgot to add this interesting fact.
You know nothing about the history of the sport. Until the '70's, the imperial distances were contested more often than the metric distances in the western world - which dominated t and f. You obviously see athletics through the distorting lens of a nation that has come to lead the world for doping in distance running.
But it is telling that you can't identify the Kenyan world record-holders before 1980 in the events identified above. That is because aside from Keino and Rono, there weren't any.
European Champs (since 1934): metric
African Games (since 1965): metric
Pan American Games (since 1951): metric
CAC Games (since 1924): metric
US Champs (since 1972): metric
European International meetings (with some UK-exceptions): metric
The last WRs in the 3 Miles and the 6 Miles which were not intermediate times in longer events were set in 1965 by Clarke (3M) and by Lindgren (6M).
Henry Rono has set WRs in the 5000m and the steeple? Are you sure about that? Any link?
So the AIU hasn't uncovered what appears to be "criminal fraud" unless they report it to the police (who, incidentally would have access to their report)? So what description should the AIU have used for what their investigation revealed? Your favorite of "Kenyan athletes are once again innocent victims"?
This doesn't answer the question. What kind of law degree graduate administered to the bar expert is not able to answer simple questions about law?
These Kenyans were guilty of tampering, but aren't they presumed innocent of any crimes?
Is that how you got your degree? -- getting other people to do your homework?
You made the claim. Justify it. Now supply the names in those events.
I also made the claim that you cannot find these names by yourself, and that you would keep flapping like a fish.
You know what is hilarious? "slowwer" already gave you all of the names in all of the events way back on Jan. 5th, and again on Jan. 6th. He even listed some of the names as far back as Dec. 15th last year, and listed 8 of the 10 records, with events but no names, on Dec. 23rd. Most of them were direct replies to you. In fact, on Jan. 7th, you quoted the names and the events in one of your replies, that you are now asking me to produce, as if this were my claim.
That took me another 5 minutes to search and find, just in the letsrun forum -- all in the same thread.
And here we are 3-4 months later, and you still cannot name 6 of the 10 world records and in which track events.
So the AIU hasn't uncovered what appears to be "criminal fraud" unless they report it to the police (who, incidentally would have access to their report)? So what description should the AIU have used for what their investigation revealed? Your favorite of "Kenyan athletes are once again innocent victims"?
This doesn't answer the question. What kind of law degree graduate administered to the bar expert is not able to answer simple questions about law?
These Kenyans were guilty of tampering, but aren't they presumed innocent of any crimes?
Because you are as thick as a row of bricks, a conviction for criminal offences isn't necessary to establish an offence may have been committed, otherwise charges would mean nothing. If charges were to be brought the evidence is clearly on the side of the AIU. But the AIU is not a law enforcement agency so it doesn't bring criminal charges. That is the role of the police. Your attempts to be clever only show what a dullard you really are.
You made the claim. Justify it. Now supply the names in those events.
I also made the claim that you cannot find these names by yourself, and that you would keep flapping like a fish.
You know what is hilarious? "slowwer" already gave you all of the names in all of the events way back on Jan. 5th, and again on Jan. 6th. He even listed some of the names as far back as Dec. 15th last year, and listed 8 of the 10 records, with events but no names, on Dec. 23rd. Most of them were direct replies to you. In fact, on Jan. 7th, you quoted the names and the events in one of your replies, that you are now asking me to produce, as if this were my claim.
That took me another 5 minutes to search and find, just in the letsrun forum -- all in the same thread.
And here we are 3-4 months later, and you still cannot name 6 of the 10 world records and in which track events.
It's interesting how it takes you several paragraphs to concede you can't answer the question and prove your claim about the number of Kenyan world record holders in the events listed prior to 1980. Nor can your little lap dancer, slowwer.
You know nothing about the history of the sport. Until the '70's, the imperial distances were contested more often than the metric distances in the western world - which dominated t and f. You obviously see athletics through the distorting lens of a nation that has come to lead the world for doping in distance running.
But it is telling that you can't identify the Kenyan world record-holders before 1980 in the events identified above. That is because aside from Keino and Rono, there weren't any.
European Champs (since 1934): metric
African Games (since 1965): metric
Pan American Games (since 1951): metric
CAC Games (since 1924): metric
US Champs (since 1972): metric
European International meetings (with some UK-exceptions): metric
The last WRs in the 3 Miles and the 6 Miles which were not intermediate times in longer events were set in 1965 by Clarke (3M) and by Lindgren (6M).
Henry Rono has set WRs in the 5000m and the steeple? Are you sure about that? Any link?
Since you are unaware of the way the world was before you were born, you need to be enlightened that the English-speaking world dominated running till the 1970's (with the exception of the Finns in the late '20's). Most of those countries were members of the British Commonwealth, which is why the Empire/Commonwealth Games were the next biggest event after the Olympics. In the English-speaking world the imperial distances were generally the norm. The Commonwealth Games didn't change that till 1970. The US, as part of the English-speaking world, also favoured the imperial distances. The irony in all this is that Kenya, as a member of the Commonwealth, was also one of those nations that adopted imperial standards. So the 880, mile, 3 mile and 6 mile were the blue riband md and distance events of track outside the Olympics, which were initiated by a Frenchman. But since you can't get anything right you don't get that, either.
To make it even clearer to one with your unfortunate IQ issues, the AIU is able to identify practices that have the elements of criminal fraud without having to prove in a court of law that given individuals are guilty of those criminal practices. That isn't what the AIU does. it isn't the Kenyan police. But the AIU can say that it recognizes the elements of a crime when it sees it. Something you are unable to do.
This doesn't answer the question. What kind of law degree graduate administered to the bar expert is not able to answer simple questions about law?
These Kenyans were guilty of tampering, but aren't they presumed innocent of any crimes?
Because you are as thick as a row of bricks, a conviction for criminal offences isn't necessary to establish an offence may have been committed, otherwise charges would mean nothing. If charges were to be brought the evidence is clearly on the side of the AIU. But the AIU is not a law enforcement agency so it doesn't bring criminal charges. That is the role of the police. Your attempts to be clever only show what a dullard you really are.
I know words like "clever" and "sly" have slightly different meanings to Americans than those under the Commonwealth.
I'm attempting to be clever by asking you basic questions you claim are well within your domain of knowledge and education and experience? I would have thought asking questions implies that the asker does not have information that the answerer might -- in other words that the asker has a reason to believe the answerer is the "clever" one in this instance. I guess you might say that "thick as brick" persons need to ask questions from those who have answers in order to get thinner.
But you've done absolutely nothing to address any of the basic legal questions before you. The disciplinary tribunal suggested that seemingly the AIU was the victim of crimes. With your vast depth of legal expertise gained presumably by obtaining a law degree, and while being in a bar -- is the statement correct, that the fraudulent conduct rises to the level of a crime? Maybe it is simply civil fraud. If I'm a victim of a crime, I can go to the police. Can the AIU? Will the AIU?
It's telling that even in the area you claim to have a superior education, resulting in a law degree, you still chose to completely ignore the clear and simple entry level legal questions in front of you, in order to propogate conspiraces, and attack the intelligence of the person simply trying to obtain any glimpse of your intelligence in a domain you claim competence.
This perfectly demonstrates where your true competence lies.
To make it even clearer to one with your unfortunate IQ issues, the AIU is able to identify practices that have the elements of criminal fraud without having to prove in a court of law that given individuals are guilty of those criminal practices. That isn't what the AIU does. it isn't the Kenyan police. But the AIU can say that it recognizes the elements of a crime when it sees it. Something you are unable to do.
To make it even clearer -- that wasn't any of the questions before you.
I also made the claim that you cannot find these names by yourself, and that you would keep flapping like a fish.
You know what is hilarious? "slowwer" already gave you all of the names in all of the events way back on Jan. 5th, and again on Jan. 6th. He even listed some of the names as far back as Dec. 15th last year, and listed 8 of the 10 records, with events but no names, on Dec. 23rd. Most of them were direct replies to you. In fact, on Jan. 7th, you quoted the names and the events in one of your replies, that you are now asking me to produce, as if this were my claim.
That took me another 5 minutes to search and find, just in the letsrun forum -- all in the same thread.
And here we are 3-4 months later, and you still cannot name 6 of the 10 world records and in which track events.
It's interesting how it takes you several paragraphs to concede you can't answer the question and prove your claim about the number of Kenyan world record holders in the events listed prior to 1980. Nor can your little lap dancer, slowwer.
He just told you where to find those names. Took me 1 minute. It's on page 43.