UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

As for your statement that the NCAA "cannot unilaterally ban such athletes", I think you're using "unilaterally" to mean something different to what it actually means.

But sure the NCAA can unilaterally ban male athletes like Thomas from competing in women's sports. The NCAA is the sole body that decides the eligibility standards and other rules for nearly half a million college and uni athletes at the more than 1,200 educational institutions and conferences under its purview. Not that women wanted it that way: women formed their own organizations to govern women's and girls sports in the 20th century, and in the 1970s we fought hard not to have women's intercollegiate competitive sports come under the control of the male-led NCAA. But we lost.

Guys like you who constantly tell women like me that it's time for women's sports to be "inclusive" of male athletes with identity issues, and condemn us for not doing as we are told, seem to have no clue about how long women were excluded from sports, and how hard we've had to work to build the sports (and spaces and services) that male interlopers like Thomas, CeCe Telfer and host of others now feel entitled to waltz into and claim as their own. The fact is, women and girls around the world were kept out of sports - and other spheres of life too - for nearly all of history since the dawn of agriculture well into the 20th century solely because of our sex - or, rather, solely because a majority of men believed that our sex made us inferior, not fully human and thus not deserving of the same rights accorded to males.

In the US, the various bodies involved in regulating women's sports and PE in colleges and universities prohibited women from having any intercollegiate competitive sports until 1957, when the powers-that-be said women's intercollegiate sports competition “may” exist. In 1963, the bodies in charge - now organized under the umbrella org called the Division for Girls and Women's Sports - went a step further by formally stating that it was “desirable" for intercollegiate programs for women be permitted to exist.

But in the US, female students at all levels of education, including college and university, only won the legal right to establish and participate in interscholastic competitive sports with the passage of Title IX in 1972.

However, women's scholastic sports didn't suddenly spring up overnight once Title IX was made federal law in 1972. Title IX gave educational institutions until 1978 to implement the law, and it took a lot of time, effort, money and new facilities to get girls' and women's school sports off the ground. Most of the time and effort was put in by women on our own; by and large, men and male-run institutions like Penn and the NCAA did not leap to their feet to lend a hand.

Moreover, when the Title IX implementation period ended in 1978, educational institutions were not penalized if they hadn't fully established interscholastic competitive sports programs for female students on par with programs for males the way the law required. So long as schools were generally moving in the right direction, no matter how slowly, they were considered to be in compliance with Title IX. So practically speaking, it's really only been since circa 1982 that women and girls began to get a chance at fair play and parity in scholastic sports.

Prior to Title IX, the NCAA sought to block women from having interscholastic college and uni competitive sports; and after Title IX was passed, the NCAA tried to undermine the legislation, prevent it from achieving its aims, and stop women from having control over women's intercollegiate sports. Women initially wanted a governing organization entirely separate from the NCAA, to be run by and for women in consultation and partnership with the NCAA but not under NCAA control. Which is why the Association for Intercollegiate Athletics for Women (AIAW) was founded in 1971.

The NCAA, run and almost entirely made up of men at the time, did not take kindly to this, which led to decade-long struggle between the NCAA and AIAW over control of the women's collegiate sports that were then beginning to be established. In case you don't know, the women who wanted women to have a major say in the governance of women's collegiate sports lost.

After the AIAW challenged the hegemony of the NCAA in court on the grounds that the NCAA is an unlawful monopoly in violation of federal anti-trust laws, the court ruled against the AIAW. The NCAA, by now aware that control of women's intercollegiate sports could bring it more revenue and power, then used its vast resources to muscle the AIAW out of the way and put it out of business. Broke and defeated, theAIAW folded in 1982, and the NCAA became the sole official governing body for women's interscholastic college and uni sports in the US.

Now a mere 40 years later, the NCAA, the powers-that-be-at Penn and other schools, the IOC, the ACLU, the Democratic Party, the MSM and virtually all other establishment institutions in the Western world say it's fine for selfish males like Lia Thomas, CeCe Telfer, June Eastwood, Terry Miller, Andraya Yearwood, Laurel Hubbard, Stephanie Barrett, Chelsea Wolfe and many more to use gender identity claims to demand access to girls and women's sports, thereby rolling back and removing the basic rights for the female sex that generations of women fought hard for. You approvingly say that "The N.C.A.A. has always taken its transgender rules seriously." But I see the NCAA's actions as proof that the NCAA has always made its priority favoring males and insuring that male athletes are catered to and get what they want, no matter the damage this does to women and women's sports.

And to justify this male invasion and attempted coup of female sports and female spaces, males are using the very same sexist, regressive sex stereotypes that generations of women fought hard to escape and free both sexes from. Today's male-led gender identity movement wants to force everyone to accept outdated, restrictive and incredibly sexist, superficial and offensive sex stereotypes as a given because those stereotypes are at the heart of the sacred dogma that authoritarian adherents of gender ideology want to make the mandatory state religion. And guys like you are cheering this misogyny on. How very sporting.

HBHS 220y wrote:

OK – Enough bickering. Some of you are not even acknowledging the difference(s) between sex and gender and at this rate we’re not going to get to a solution. First, you have it ALL laid out for you right here, by RunRagged. The biology. The physiology. The psychology. The anatomy. The sociology. The anthropology.

Now, how do we fix this mess? By the simplest solution (thanks, Occam) that yields the greatest good for the greatest number of athletes. There will always be outliers, anomalies, exceptions, intersex, DSDs. We can’t solve every problem for every athlete here. But current policies, guidelines and rules are NOT solving the central problem: How to make competitions fair for XX athletes by not forcing them to compete in some sports against bigger, stronger, more muscular XY athletes.

There are just two major points in the document below:

It must be chromosomes that determine the sports division one can compete in. And, trans females should be barred ONLY from those female sports involving strength, speed or stamina.

Note also that the Manifesto does NOT oppose trans females identifying and living as females, nor trans males identifying and living as males. Our guidelines are ONLY for certain sports, where the trans females have inherent advantages by virtue of having gone through male puberty (really, puberties) and enjoying an ample supply of testosterone for years, while XX females were producing estrogen.

Comments, please. I would hope that this (or some improved version of it) should be the standard demand of all who seek fairness for all athletes.

Trans Female Athletes in Olympic Sports: A Manifesto

All human beings deserve respect, and this includes respect for their gender preferences and orientations. A person’s desire to live in either a male or a female gender, a combination of genders, or no gender at all is a matter of individual choice and has no bearing on that person’s participation in sporting events.

For sports purposes, gender and sex are not the same. Gender is a choice; sex is irrefutable biology.

Sex is determined by chromosomes, gender by personal preference. Males are identified with the XY chromosome, females with the XX chromosome.

The criteria for participation in the female division of some Olympic sports will be the athlete’s sex, not gender.

Biological males enjoy several inherent, physical advantages over biological females, most of them stemming from a life-long exposure to testosterone that started in utero, continued in infancy, and then was confirmed in puberty.

These advantages include, but are not limited to, stronger bones and stronger muscles; larger lungs and greater cardiovascular capacity; and a bone structure that is more efficient for running and jumping.

These advantages are not eliminated and are barely diminished by testosterone suppression drugs in trans female athletes.

Males who have gone through puberty with its increased testosterone production and male body development, whether they identify as male or female, enjoy inherent advantages over cis females in certain sports: specifically those involving strength, speed and/or stamina.

Therefore, in sports involving strength, speed and/or stamina, the female or women’s division will be open only to those persons with the XX chromosome, no matter how they identify in terms of gender.

For example: Among Olympic sports, XY chromosome athletes will be prohibited from participating in the female division of sports like track and field, weight lifting and swimming.

XY athletes will be permitted to participate in the female division of sports like table tennis, equestrian and sailing.

Olympic sports where the advantages of greater strength, speed and / or stamina are uncertain or have not been determined -- like break dancing, badminton and archery – will be governed by rules to be set up by their worldwide federations.

Tatar... wrote:

It ignores that trans men exist. If they have XY they are eligible for the women's and will take up that opportunity. Hormones like testosterone will be granted as a TUE for trans men. If these proposals came in, it can be assured trans men will make a mockery of the new rules.

Tatar... wrote:It also ignores that in many jurisdictions trans women are legally recognized as women. How could any governing body have a women's category and then decide some legally-recognized women are not eligible? Does that happen anywhere else? No amount of linguistic gymnastics will fool a court.

RunRagged wrote:

Parents of Penn Female Swimmers Protest to NCCA and Penn Protesting Rules Allowing Male In Women's Category; Penn Responds By Recommending Female Athletes Seek Mental Health Help

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10314225/UPenn-parents-pen-poignant-letter-demanding-NCAA-change-rules-trans-swimmer-Lia-Thomas.html

Parents of the University of Pennsylvania women's swim team are demanding the NCAA change rules that have permitted transgender swimmer Lia Thomas to dominate the competition, declaring 'at stake here is the integrity of women's sports,' DailyMail.com has learned.

The parents of about 10 swimmers sent a letter last week to the NCAA and forwarded it to the Ivy League and University of Pennsylvania officials.

'At stake here is the integrity of women's sports,' they wrote in the letter obtained exclusively by DailyMail.com. 'The precedent being set – one in which women do not have a protected and equitable space to compete – is a direct threat to female athletes in every sport. What are the boundaries? How is this in line with the NCAA's commitment to providing a fair environment for student-athletes?

'It is the responsibility of the NCAA to address the matter with an official statement,' the parents continue. 'As the governing body, it is unfair and irresponsible to leave the onus on Lia, Lia's teammates, Lia's coaches, UPenn athletics and the Ivy League. And it is unfair and irresponsible to Lia to allow the media to dictate the narrative without the participation of the NCAA.'

The NCAA has yet to respond to the letter, sent December 5.

One parent, who asked not to be identified for fear of repercussions for herself and her daughter, told DailyMail.com, 'The swimmers have mixed feelings. Many of them want to speak up, but they don't because they believe they'll be ostracized."

Everybody is scared,' the mom added. 'Parents are also scared that the kids will be harmed. We are paying $80,000 for this school. Their life will be impacted.'

'At stake here is the integrity of women's sports,' the parents wrote in the letter obtained by DailyMail.com

The university sent a terse response to the parents, claiming the school is doing what it can to help the student-athletes navigate Lia's success, and shared a link to mental health services.

'Please know that we fully support all our swimming student-athletes and want to help our community navigate Lia's success in the pool this winter,' the university replied. 'Penn Athletics is committed to being a welcoming and inclusive environment for all our student-athletes, coaches and staff and we hold true to that commitment today and in the future.

'We've encouraged our student-athletes to utilize the robust resources available to them at Penn, and I'd like to share them with you as well,' the school wrote the parents, providing links to 'counseling and psychological services, the LGBT Center, Restorative Practices and our Center for Student-Athlete Success staff.'

So according to Penn, the problem at hand is not the unfairness of the rules allowing Lia Thomas to compete in women's swimming, it's that the female athletes are angry and distressed and need help to have their attitudes adjusted so they can better "navigate Lia's success in the pool this winter."

I realize that "winter" has its own meaning on campuses and in college sports, but I suspect that in a letter to people outside of academia who go by the regular calendar definition and thus know that winter hasn't begun yet, the phrase "navigate Lia's success in the pool this winter" was put in to signal that nothing is going to be done, so it's a sure bet that Thomas is going to continue to dominate in the coming months, and the female swimmers and their parents should just shut up and get used to it. This is the sort of thing that PR professionals and "communications" teams pay a great deal of attention to and discuss at length before making official statements.

Also, I think the powers-that-be at Penn know full well that all the places they recommend the women turn to for help in learning to properly "navigate Lia's success in the pool this winter" will shame and scorn them and call them transphobic haters because like pretty much everyone else in academia, the "LGBTQ" and "the helping professions" today, the staff at the recommended campus services are all fully signed up to the misogynistic religious dogma preached by The Male Supremacist Church of Genderoloy.

BTW, Penn's response sounds like SDSU Aztec telling me to "calm down" and characterizing my reply to one of his posts defending males interloping into women's sports as "beserk," LOL.

Tatar... wrote:

HBHS 220y wrote:

OK – Enough bickering. Some of you are not even acknowledging the difference(s) between sex and gender and at this rate we’re not going to get to a solution. First, you have it ALL laid out for you right here, by RunRagged. The biology. The physiology. The psychology. The anatomy. The sociology. The anthropology.

Now, how do we fix this mess? By the simplest solution (thanks, Occam) that yields the greatest good for the greatest number of athletes. There will always be outliers, anomalies, exceptions, intersex, DSDs. We can’t solve every problem for every athlete here. But current policies, guidelines and rules are NOT solving the central problem: How to make competitions fair for XX athletes by not forcing them to compete in some sports against bigger, stronger, more muscular XY athletes.

There are just two major points in the document below:

It must be chromosomes that determine the sports division one can compete in. And, trans females should be barred ONLY from those female sports involving strength, speed or stamina.

Note also that the Manifesto does NOT oppose trans females identifying and living as females, nor trans males identifying and living as males. Our guidelines are ONLY for certain sports, where the trans females have inherent advantages by virtue of having gone through male puberty (really, puberties) and enjoying an ample supply of testosterone for years, while XX females were producing estrogen.

Comments, please. I would hope that this (or some improved version of it) should be the standard demand of all who seek fairness for all athletes.

Trans Female Athletes in Olympic Sports: A Manifesto

All human beings deserve respect, and this includes respect for their gender preferences and orientations. A person’s desire to live in either a male or a female gender, a combination of genders, or no gender at all is a matter of individual choice and has no bearing on that person’s participation in sporting events.

For sports purposes, gender and sex are not the same. Gender is a choice; sex is irrefutable biology.

Sex is determined by chromosomes, gender by personal preference. Males are identified with the XY chromosome, females with the XX chromosome.

The criteria for participation in the female division of some Olympic sports will be the athlete’s sex, not gender.

Biological males enjoy several inherent, physical advantages over biological females, most of them stemming from a life-long exposure to testosterone that started in utero, continued in infancy, and then was confirmed in puberty.

These advantages include, but are not limited to, stronger bones and stronger muscles; larger lungs and greater cardiovascular capacity; and a bone structure that is more efficient for running and jumping.

These advantages are not eliminated and are barely diminished by testosterone suppression drugs in trans female athletes.

Males who have gone through puberty with its increased testosterone production and male body development, whether they identify as male or female, enjoy inherent advantages over cis females in certain sports: specifically those involving strength, speed and/or stamina.

Therefore, in sports involving strength, speed and/or stamina, the female or women’s division will be open only to those persons with the XX chromosome, no matter how they identify in terms of gender.

For example: Among Olympic sports, XY chromosome athletes will be prohibited from participating in the female division of sports like track and field, weight lifting and swimming.

XY athletes will be permitted to participate in the female division of sports like table tennis, equestrian and sailing.

Olympic sports where the advantages of greater strength, speed and / or stamina are uncertain or have not been determined -- like break dancing, badminton and archery – will be governed by rules to be set up by their worldwide federations.

It ignores that trans men exist. If they have XY they are eligible for the women's and will take up that opportunity. Hormones like testosterone will be granted as a TUE for trans men. If these proposals came in, it can be assured trans men will make a mockery of the new rules.

It also ignores that in many jurisdictions trans women are legally recognized as women. How could any governing body have a women's category and then decide some legally-recognized women are not eligible? Does that happen anywhere else? No amount of linguistic gymnastics will fool a court.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Avid Hobby Jogger wrote:

So you have no concern for the woman who might not get a chance to compete because her spot was taken by a mediocre ex-man? The transgendered person probably could not have gotten a spot on the team (and possibly a scholarship or other assistance) so it is OK for that person to take a spot on the women's team and leaving out someone who likely has worked her most of her life to try and make a college team and get a scholarship or other assistance?

Why do people assume I'm pro-transger athlete? I'm disgusted by what Thomas is doing but the difference is that I believe it's naive to think that if enough people become angry and there is a "tour" at N.C.A.A. headquarters, the policies will be changed. Like it or not, any change is going to have be litigated.