David Epstein/Pro Publica/BBC Story: Former Team Members Accuse Famed Coach Alberto Salazar of Breaking Drug Rules

Get used to it.. wrote:

First of all I know English isn't your first language, but damn dude, it is painful to read your posts. You accuse others of having nothing scientific but fail to offer it either. I don't think anyone on here is impressed with your name dropping and listing details of where people are and what time they took a crap. It is just irrelevant and doesn't give you any credibility because it doesn't mean anything to the topic at hand. How can you possibly continue to let the athletes themselves off the hook claiming it is the influence of unscrupulous managers and coaches. If athletes don't know ow what they are taking it is still their fault, regardless of how educated they are or are not.

I think Renato's point is that

1) he is on the ground and sees how top kenyans react to good training. He believes that his observations prove that the very top kenyans wouldn't receive a benefit from EPO.

2) he is ready for hard science to prove his empirical observations.

This is BS. 14 year old know that you shouldn't cheat in sport. 14 year olds are in high school and parents don't know everything that is going on at practice. At that age parents probably know the least about what their kids are up to.

Any athlete who jumps ship now from NOP is going to find themselves caught between a rock and a hard place. To leave after the publication would imply that they don't want to be tainted by any scandal which in turn suggests that they have prior reason to believe that there may be a scandal. Jumping now is admitting prior knowledge. No problem, no reason to jump.

Killing our own sport with a 600 page diatribe about a situation that shouldn't exist. First of all if you're not cheating you're not trying that goes in all major sports. if something is within legal limits, as a professional coach, your doing yourself and the athletes a disservice if you are not doing every thing in your power to gain an edge. An intricate knowledge of the rules is a must, if you are a coach who supposes themselves to compete against the best in the world....AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD DOESN'T EXIST. And will never exist in the world until WADA, USADA and all such organizations are abolished, and people are given a choice of what they want to see. World Records and Human beings doing impossible things, or bickering, prevarication, deceit, backstabbing, and deer in head light faces, giving interviews in front of cameras trying to explain things they, in no way, are equipped to understand. All the PED and suspension talk is doing is hurting the sport. It may make you feel better as a never-was, or an ain't, but if that's more important to you then the health of the sports, on your head be it.

Er... wrote:

Agreed--this makes no sense. Salazar was providing an unfair advantage to some of his athletes but the most prominent female distance runner in America was an exception?

gwalkerruns wrote:

Kara comes out looking fishy at best in this. She wants to come off as the clean whistleblower but for us to believe that we have to believe the following.....

1. She ran with Salazar for years but did not dope herself.

2. She didnt know about the doping until near the end.

3. She won a medal at worlds without doping but beat others who did.

Not buying it. Perhaps she knows her competitive days are over and this will raise her profile....

Hate to break it to you but Kara is not really the point of what is going on.

You may like her. You may despise her. Makes zero difference.

Now try to get back on track.

Vintage Mind wrote:

I reflect back to 1996. Essentially Salazar's first time out of the gates as a coach, and not only is Mary Slaney diagnosed with asthma at the age of 38 (after over two decades competing at a world class level), but she's busted for a high T/E ratio at the Olympic Trials.

The average male produces a T/E ratio around 1:1. The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) uses a 4:1 standard for positive tests.

So, I imagine that every Salazar athlete is in that limit.

But this is pathetic, because you're obtaining an edge ARTIFICIALLY, like certain MMA fighters with irregular T/E ratios (Overeem, Chael sonnen, Jon Jones, Cormier, tec).

And how about NBA? NFL? T/E ratios, microdosing...I think 90% of the players USE all the tricks that Salazar uses.

Malmö? wrote:

Malmo, why should we believe that Salazar talked about these things with you? Many years ago, you finished well behind him in some races. That's it. You haven't exactly set the running world on fire with your great running or coaching accomplishments since then. No offence, but you never did.

What evidence do you have that these conversations occurred? Did you tape them?

Just stop the fvking nonsense azzhole.

-----------------------------------------

From: Salazar, Alberto (ETW) [XXXXXXXX@nike.com]

Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 9:04 PM

To: george malley

Subject: Re: I really hate to bother you

Hi George, I'm on a flight that gets into Portland at 7:30 pm and am going straight to my son's house as he and his wife just had a baby girl two nights ago. I've been gone six weeks and if I start talking on the phone while Molly is driving me to see the baby, she will kick me out of the car. It will be late your time already, so how about if I call you in the morning? I'll probably sleep good as we've been travelling for about twenty hours, but can call you around noon your time? Thx -Alberto

Sent from my iPad

I'm sorry the world you live in is so crappy. really I am. But do us a favor and keep that dark cloud over your own head and don't stretch it over the rest of us who believe in honor.

Er... wrote:

Here's my question: what will it take for USADA or WADA to get involved seriously? (If they aren't already.) Will "malmo says Alberto told him there was androgel in the room?" cut it? Is this really all we have on the androgel?

Who the heck is "we"? Who the heck are you?

Seriously? The burden is not on me to produce scientific data that EPO works just as well on 2:05 guys as it does on 2:10 guys; that is the baseline stipulation given what is known about the mechanism of action of EPO. The burden is on YOU to provide evidence that it does NOT work as well on the fastest of the fast (and even then, only Africans). You sound like the religious types who insist that until nonbelievers somehow prove that God doesn't exist, He obviously does.

1. No shit. This doesn't relate in any way to physiological resistance to effects of EPO.

2. What are you saying? That the increase in blood volume as a result of training (or heat acclimatization, and modulated chiefly by the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone axis) is not matched by a proportional increase in RBC volume? I've known this for 30 years.

3. See 1). And actually, this is as inane as it is off-point. You don't have to train in any particular or optimal way to see increases in plasma volume.

IT IS NOT CLEAR WHAT YOUR ALL-CAPS DECLARATION IS INTENDED TO CONVEY.

The rest of your post is the same old tired bullshit expressed in the same old tired way (e.g., Jeptoo got faster because her life improved; I know that the Ethioipians wouldn't dop because of their terrible fear of needles).

As for the idea that the entire running, skiing and cycling worlds are sold on a myth, and that the use of EPO persists because of the stubborn adherence of this myth: Please. There are some dumb shits rambling and raging about this forum, but don't be that patronizing, if that is even the word for it.

Unimpeachably and beautifully put. Renato and science radically part ways where EPO and 2:05-2:06 marathon talent enter the mix, which, not coincidentally, is where Renato's pecuniary livelihood rests.

I'm nobody--a former competitive runner (never that good) and current running enthusiast who follows the sport closely. "We" refers to people following the story, curious about the allegations against NOP. I'm trying to sort truth from rumor, that's all. And I've already made clear that I'm a pedant, a stickler for facts.

For instance, many people are saying that Androgel was found in the room of some NOP athletes. Is this a fact or a claim?

As to malmo's question about "What does WADA have to do with it?" I, like a lot of people here, are wondering a couple of things: 1. Did NOP athletes use PEDs? 2. Could we see a day when NOP athletes confess, similar to the confessions of cyclists related to Lance's doping. So I'm curious if this story is going to be one of the pieces that leads to a massive takedown of dirty athletes, or if it's an airing of mostly rumor and speculation that will hang like a dark cloud of suspicion over people's careers but not lead to any confessions. I don't know which it is. If they're dirty, I hope it's the former.

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

I posted the link because it included Salazar and Rupp's statements.

Again, trying my best to look at both sides because I really don't "want" them to be guilty, but so far all we have from the NOP side are a couple of carefully-crafted written statements and Centro's I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I Twitter spat with Willis.

I was in no way knocking you for posting the link, txRUNNERgirl. In fact, the article was quite instructive. Forgive my crass excursions, but Ken Goe must have chronic tonsillitis from one Nike pecker or another banging against the back of his throat at any given time.

Also, you are at least candid about your reasons for being skeptical: the truth is simply painful to acknowledge, Unfortunately, truth and emotional utility are often at odds. For example, wanting to believe that white people of European descent and blacks of West African descent are not, on average, blessed with different levels of inherent sprint speed because it seems "racist" has no effect on the reality of this arrangement on the part of nature.

They aren't doping

wha?? crappy? moi? The world I live in has World Records, that aren't conditionally based during the time when governments supported,and forced hormonal use (which spawned everything the US knows about doping BTW). I live in a world of sub 9 100's and 330 ft javelin throws. 30 ft Long Jumps, and sub 3:30 miles. 300 ft hammer throws and 12.70 hurdle races. It's beautiful over here...you should try it. A land where track and field isn't a synonym for insignificant (like the US). A land where people don't only care about the 100 and 200m....every 4 years. A land where the least of them, don't control the actions of the best of them. A land where people don't persist in the delusion of an even playing field, but instead see the reality of an opportunity for new horizons, and rebirth. A land that isn't constantly defecated on in a vain attempt at "Honor" that everyone else in the sport had given up before it started....future's so bright i need shades over here. While you listen for the faint death rattle of honor, I cant hear what you say over the raucous applause and admiration.

Too-Da-Loo!

yoyomama wrote:

It is no longer debatable why Rupp has been the most tested runner in the US since London. Clearly what Magness told USADA has subjected Galen to extreme scrutiny.

They are building a long term data set. If they locked up Rupp for several months, and continued testing, they could see what changed in his system. That would provide some information on changes to the biopassport, or other tests, to look at carefully for other runners.

jjjjjjj wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

However, what he said doesn't exclude the fact that everything Alberto is doing is inside the limits of legality.

This is the whole deal for Alberto. Get them a TUE, stay within the testosterone normal range, etc., give them 50 ml injections per day, all within the normal limits and legal. The methods, however, might get him busted.

The allowable is 50ml 4x per day, everyday, all year long.

Renato,

Thank you for your continued contribution to this conversation. Although I disagree with you, I appreciate you sharing your point of view and experiences in such great detail.

While I disagree with your opinion about EPO's benefits at the top level, I admit that I'm basing this on the opinion of scientists that I hold in high regard, and that there's simply not research on the effects of EPO in truly elite athletes.

To play devil's advocate against myself, I'll admit that there doesn't appear to be any published research that has demonstrated the magnitude of EPO's benefits in elite athletes - it's limited to recreational and "well-trained" athletes. There are at least some researchers that openly question the efficacy of EPO at the elite level - see:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bcp.12034/full

.

Another supplement that enhances performance in recreational athletes, but not at the highest levels of performance, is beet juice (or more properly, the nitrate in beet juice). For more info, see Alex Hutchinson's take here:

http://www.runnersworld.com/drinks-hydration/dose-reality-beet-juice

. So it's not implausible that a performance aid that works well for sub-elites would be ineffective for elite athletes.

If anyone is aware of research into benefits of EPO use in elite athletes, I'd love to see it.

4x wrote:

jjjjjjj wrote:

This is the whole deal for Alberto. Get them a TUE, stay within the testosterone normal range, etc., give them 50 ml injections per day, all within the normal limits and legal. The methods, however, might get him busted.

The allowable is 50ml 4x per day, everyday, all year long.

is it conceivable that a TUE would be given for testosterone? I suppose it is technically possible but would it ever happen? Hard to believe.