Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

the reddit/r/advancedrunning site has quite a few interesting posters on that as well. One dude had a nearly big breakthrough as sirpoc.

Is this the low 20s guy that ran 17:xx? He also tried if for the mile I believe

It is!

Sometimes double easy, very seldom would double at all. I mostly do a 6 day week, 5-7 hours (4
minimum, maybe 8 on the maximum if it’s a random week)

Ive tried a few different structures with the running/cycling
splits at this point (down the middle, lately with more high end biking/lower
end running, something closer to the subT original but with Z2 rides in there),
but I think if im honest the schedule that gave me the best results was the
following:

E, Sub T Run, E, Sub T Bike, E, Sub T Run, OFF
E, Sub T Bike, E, Sub T Run, E, Sub T Bike, OFF

Sub T runs were typically in the 24-36 min range (depending
on the intensity end (typically for 3:00 reps I wouldn’t go over 30:00, sometimes
with longer reps id go over 30:00) 3:1/5:1 work rest ratio

Sub T Bike was typically longer, at least 40:00 depending on
rep and up to 64:00 (4:00 rep kept to 10x, 16:00 reps id go up to 4). 4:1 work rest ratio.

This schedule really seemed like it made it almost seamless to
translate the fitness across to running, and the bike made the extra stress
more manageable without the pounding.

I don’t know the exact ratio in the weeks, but probably 70/30
in that ballpark.

Ive been doing a lot more higher intensity on the bike the past
few months out of necessity but I have felt that has been much harder to translate
back to running fitness. Not to say ive
incorporated it correctly (haven’t really been able to with illness/life/work)
but I think if I would really focus on keeping the very high intensity cycling
(Zwift racing) I would have to balance it to be a schedule of:
Z2 ride/Sub T run/Zwift race, the rest easy

Hope that helps somewhat!

also, if i had the time and the motivation and could add something to the schedule i think that would really move the needle, it would be throwing in very long Z2 efforts on the bike (2-3 hrs), broken up as 30-40 minute reps.

I still might incorporate Z2 a bit more deliberately especially in weeks i do a Zwift race, just to balance the week better.

I think thats another huge difference between the Z2/Sweetspot divide when you are coming across from cycling to running, pulling that duration 'lever' is incredibly difficult to do correctly in running, especially if you arent continuously doing the massive volume on your feet.

Here, cycling really allows you to cheat that facet and get a completely different stimulus.

Also, the E days in the other schedule, i tried to prioritize E runs over E bikes -- i just think the bang for the buck was better, but some easy rides definitely were in there

Could you summarize his progression?

That post was the reason I started this back in January. My progression has been minor 18:36 in early Feb, 18:18 early April in hotter conditions, then 38:21 10k with 300ft elevation. HR averages for the 3 efforts were 181, 177, 171

50M, been following this method very precisely since Jan. Averaged 55 miles/week last two months, weekly long run of 10-12 miles. 45-60 min easy pace now sits at 8:15-8:20/mile @ 70% MHR (down from 9:30). Running 6X6mins subT @ 7-7:15min. Figure I'll test myself this weekend on either a 5k, 10k, or halfM. Drawn to the half because paces might not be such a shock to the legs? Bad plan? Feels like jumping off into the unknown, but trust the method? ......Ran 8 miles yesterday at 8:15, 70%MHR, easy. Try half at 7:45/mile? Faster?

7:45 seems way slow. No way easy pace is only 30 seconds off half marathon pace. If anything, should be around the 6 minute rep pace.

Weird that his sub-T pace and his easy pace are that close in general. Everyone is different, of course, but my 6 minute reps are also around that 7-low mark and my easy pace is more like 10-low so 3 minutes apart (rather than 1-1:20), maybe a bit faster, but sometimes even a bit slower (I do run very slow on my easy days compared to other people at my level). Sirpoc's is something like 2 minutes apart as well (5-low for the reps, 7-low for the easy runs) even though he's a lot faster than this guy so the paces should be closer together in theory. If the 70% max HR thing is true, then the easy paces should be fine as well, but then maybe he's sandbagging on the sub-t reps? For most people the tendency is to go too fast on both, though, so I'd suspect the easy paces are too fast and the HR reading is off.

I am the same age as him and the gap between my 6 min sub t pace and easy is 2 min 15 sec. (5:45 to 8:00). He's either running sub T too easy or easy too hard. My guess is the later.

Well, I run the 8:15-8:30 pace at heart rates in the 125 to 133 range (HRmax around 190-194) very consistently, Garmin watch and OrangeTheory HR armband monitor agree, always. Maybe see 136/137 at the end of a newly longer easy run, worst case. So I trust that HR, feels easy, recover easy, no issues with hitting three subT a week, three easy, and long run. I've watched that very closely over time.

Maybe I'm sandbagging subT? I've read here about under vs overcooking but maybe took that to close to heart? :-) Just looked back at June 6th. Averaged 7:15/mile on 5 X 6 minutes. Max HR on the intervals rose from 153 up to 163, so 79% up to 84%. Probably a touch light there. Went from 0ft to 2000ft altitude that day (minor, I know). If I ran my HR up to 88/89% on the last rep, would come closer to 6:45-6:55/mile.

But I agree with the spread being tighter - I've looked to VDOT tables and my easy pace at 70% MHR seemed to imply faster paces on shorter distances. I can try cranking subT harder, see how it feels.

Something is up here. I follow the prescribed paces from lactrace and run 6:50-40 pace for my 6 minute reps with have an easy pace no faster than 9:15 (generally run around 9:30). Either you're running your easy runs fast or doing your sub t way slow.

Yeah, I've mapped my HR to easy pace fairly regularly. Ran 9:15/mile for 75 mins, heart rate hit 117 at 60 mins, 119 at 75. Low on a max of 190-194. 9min/mile hits 120 BPM, 8:45 hits 125-128, 8:30 hits 130, and so on - about 5 beats per 15 seconds, ballpark relationships.

I did just run 6:31 5x6 mins on an orange theory treadmill on Tuesday, just don't trust those paces (springy treads). But maybe 6:45/mile is a better number for me to aim for on this workout. HR on 7-7:15 could be higher. Garmin watch says threshold pace 6:45 (who knows if accurate), predicts 1:30 for a half.

All told, looking back over recent runs, figure I'll go out way faster than 7:45 - low sevens aligns with my HR/paces elsewhere. We'll see how it all holds together - putting my faith in this NSM fun :-). Will learn something either way!

Racing is the right idea, but if you have to ask, you should run a 5K. If you haven't raced a lot, definitely start with 5K. The stakes are a lot lower if you badly mess up the pace. Run the race all out, and most of your questions about training paces will be answered.

I would do a 10km controlled time trail @6:50-6:45 min/mile pace, and learn from that. If you feel you could do one more time,then it is your threshold pace (tapered,fresh legs,race conditions). If you feel struggling ,feeling RPE 8+ then it is faster than your current LT.

Do it outside,real conditions. After the TT look at the data (HR,pace etc).

Half would could be to much for the first time trial.

Very interested to read this, I have been using the bike for cross training with a rough split of 4hrs run, 3hrs bike, but have shifted to 4.5hrs run and 2.5hrs bike recently. I am doing something like (I'm more flexible as long as the training load is right) this:

Sub-T run, E run & E Bike, Sub-T Bike, E run, Sub-T run, long run, E bike.

My runs have 30m sub-t per run, and my bike session is all over the place, but try to stick to SS/ Z4 reps. My next step is to try and build up my volume and then some more sub-t.

Always happy to share notes with others who are trying to adapt this with cross training.

Thanks everyone for your feedback. In the end, I opted for the HalfM because I sent a 5k in my early 40s but hamstring protested. With no time @ 5k pace yet to test my legs, I dIdn't want to risk getting sidelined for months by a mishap (consistently above all else....). I'll try some mile repeats @5k pace first. So, HM pace range felt safer for now, despite distances. All indications were that 7min/mile was the best I could pull off, so I treated this run like conservative info gathering, ran @7:30/mile, HR averaged ~155. Ran last mile @ 6:50, definitely had gas left. So, indeed, paces closer to 7min/mile would have pushed HR to the low 160s, w/LTHR ~ 170. Fitness level affirmed over distance on my first HM, with no negative surprises. Back to the grind, see where this goes over the coming months. I'm thrilled with the method - never expected this. Very curious to see whether I plateau....

Question though: Are there any workouts within the NSM method that help bridge the gap from 6 x 6mins at HM pace to holding that pace for a full 90 minutes? Maybe that's just a mental cliff I need to jump off, but there's a "discomfort X time" element to familiarize myself with. Perhaps occasionally embed 5 miles at HM pace within the long run? That's no longer <70%maxHR but would develop my feel for it.....

Having read all of your posts here, I believe you about your easy pace and I think you're sandbagging your subT. Right now you've got a training load that you've determined is not too hard for you. So you're supposed to increase the training load and find out where your limit is. The pace calculators give you an estimate to get you started. Ultimately you have to experiment for yourself to find the right training load and then do your best to increase it appropriately as you get fitter.

I'd slowly increase your workout paces until you find that you're a little bit fatigued going into some workouts, causing you to have an off day here or there. Don't force yourself to run aggressive paces when you're fatigued - let the paces be slower that day so you can recover. Through this process you can figure out exactly how fast you can run these workouts without accumulating fatigue. And those are the paces you should be running. As you get fitter, go faster.

HR zones can vary a lot from individual to individual but yours are very unusual. I have a similar max HR and similar easy pace HR. I will hit about 170 at the end of the middle reps of a workout and if I'm feeling good I may hit low 170's up to 175 or so at the end of the last reps. Sirpoc is similar afaik.

As for learning how to race: I think you should just race more. Or do solo time trials if racing is inconvenient. Racing is so much harder than training. I think you need to learn how much discomfort you can endure, so I'd actually suggest you choose a pace and hold it for as long as you can rather than attempt to race a certain distance. You should get quite uncomfortable not very long into it, and then sink through greater and greater levels of discomfort while you keep trying to hold the pace for 1 more mile, 1 more minute, 1 more step... You may also not be warmed up enough. In that case you might get quite uncomfortable at the start but if you push through it you'll eventually get more comfortable. Whatever distance and time you end up running, you can plug that into a calculator and get estimates of your race paces.

But if your reason for wanting to run a good race is to turn around and plug that time into the calculators to update your training paces, that's silly. You've already been doing the method since January. As I said, increase the paces and learn for yourself what the right paces are for you right now.

Not running a 5k for fear of a hamstring injury is a can of worms someone else can fully address if they want to... Eventually you've got to make yourself more resilient somehow if you want to race hard. Sirpoc is known for no sprinting, strides, strength work, etc, but some other people need supplementary work to stay comfortable and healthy. Do what you gotta do but ease into it if you're currently not doing anything.

Is 90 to 120 seconds rest OK for the 6x1 mile reps?