Sebastian Coe vs Said Aouita - 1500/mile race - Who would win?

Coevett wrote:

So...every East German doped, no East Germans popped. Therfore : No Brits popped = Every Brit doped.

Your conclusion, not mine. My conclusion is that doping was easy during those times, even easier than now, where roughly 50% of the athletes dope.

Coevett wrote:

And aren't you missing the point again that there was some degree of testing on the European circuit in the 80s and this is why East Europeans would rarely run on the circuit?

No. That ("this is why") is an unproven hypothesis. Again, people on either side rarely run on the other side of the curtain. As proven above by the friendly poser stat for nothing.

Coevett wrote:

Are you seriously suggesting that the fact that Coe didn't race behind the Iron Curtain proves that there is nothing suspicious about East Europeans rarely racing outside of the Iron Curtain????

West Europeans raced on the West European side, East Europeans on the East European side. You can call the West side "the circuit" and ignore the East side all you want, and add 65 question marks, but it doesn't change the facts.

Indeed, we do know for example that

- the West German parliament debated (behind closed doors) already in the 70s how to counter the East's doping, with the Christian Conservatives speaking out in favor of state-sponsoring

- USATF covered up over 100 positive doping tests.

Example:

So really, we only tested our own athletes to make sure they wouldn't get caught during the games/championships. Nowadays, various teams do that in their own labs instead of in the federations' labs.

Coevett wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

.

Are you seriously suggesting that the fact that Coe didn't race behind the Iron Curtain proves that there is nothing suspicious about East Europeans rarely racing outside of the Iron Curtain????

Coevett - have you ever seen this: "Doping at the Olympic Games."

This under "1980 Moscow:"

? "Though no athletes were caught doping at the 1980 Summer Olympics, it has been claimed that athletes had begun using testosterone and other drugs for which tests had not been yet developed. A 1989 report by a committee of the Australian Senate claimed that "there is hardly a medal winner at the Moscow Games, certainly not a gold medal winner...who is not on one sort of drug or another: usually several kinds. The Moscow Games might well have been called the Chemists' Games".[22]"

? A member of the IOC Medical Commission, Manfred Donike, privately ran additional tests with a new technique for identifying abnormal levels of testosterone by measuring its ratio to epitestosterone in urine. Twenty percent of the specimens he tested, including those from sixteen gold medalists would have resulted in disciplinary proceedings had the tests been official.[22] The results of Donike's unofficial tests later convinced the IOC to add his new technique to their testing protocols.[23] The first documented case of "blood doping" occurred at the 1980 Summer Olympics as a runner was transfused with two pints of blood before winning medals in the 5000 m and 10,000 m.[24]

Here's a list of medal winners at the 80 games:

Yes, a lot of ‘claims’ in that Wiki article, but a distinct lack of proof or evidence that supports it. Anyone can claim that the vast majority of medal winners, most of whom would be Russian and East European in Moscow anyway, were likely on drugs, but no one has actually provided proof to support these claims have they?

If the Russians at a home Games were covering up positive test results from their own athletes, it would make no sense at all to do the same for those athletes from the West. Rather, it would be totally in keeping with their raison d’etre for doping to show communist superiority by revealing the dopers in Western Europe, would it not?

The ‘claim’ also doesn’t explain why Such a small country as the GDR was able to produce many female athletes that could run sub 11 for 100, 22 for 200 and 49 for 400, when their peers in the West were busting a gut to run sub 11.4, 23 and 51 for the same events? Same in all women’s events and men’s field events. I lived through that period and the difference in ability between the top Russians and East Germans and the British or French teams in almost all events was blatant, obvious and at times embarrassing. It was clear to all who witnessed these battles that the GDR/Soviets were all heavily doped on sophisticated regimes. Yes there was the odd Brit and more so American that appeared to be on something too, but nothing compared to the level of those from state sponsored doping regimes.

+1, of course. In fact, when the testing for testo doping started in '83 (indirect via the T/E ratio), it was most embarrassing for us. For example doi: 10.1080/09523367.2016.1152961

Note that Caracas was in 1983.

As for (back then legal) blood transfusions, the studies on the benefits of blood transfusion for endurance events go back to the 40s... nothing novel about that in the early 80s.

Here word for word cited from a 2004 review paper (doi: 10.1136/bjsm.2003.007195):

Lord Lucan wrote:

How many British middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many Moroccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many British and Morccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping/PED since 1990?

casual obsever wrote:

Indeed, we do know for example that

- the West German parliament debated (behind closed doors) already in the 70s how to counter the East's doping, with the Christian Conservatives speaking out in favor of state-sponsoring

.

Interesting, you are referring you the Adenauer-Merkel CDU party?

Maaninka was the blood doper. Interestingly Yifter circa 1977 had no kick suddenly 1978-1980 he had one of the most lethal kicks ever, and rapid balding.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Maaninka was the blood doper. Interestingly Yifter circa 1977 had no kick suddenly 1978-1980 he had one of the most lethal kicks ever, and rapid balding.

According to this NYT article, I guess Maaninka is saying the blood transfusions had no bearing on medaling in both events? I wonder if he's just saying this because in the 10 where he won the silver he beat two of the best Ethiopians at the time, Viren, two E. Germans (who were probably doping), and almost beat the Shifter (couple of seconds). ?

He also beat another teammate, Martti Vainio, who in the 84 games tested positive IC for methenolone after winning silver in the 10 (27:51.10) losing to Cova (wasn't Cova suspected of using blood transfusions during his career?).

Looking this over, this is interesting about the so called Finn power of 70s & 80s. Organized doping maybe going on here?

casual obsever wrote:

Here word for word cited from a 2004 review paper (doi: 10.1136/bjsm.2003.007195):

HISTORY

The first alleged use of blood boosting in sport was in the 1960s, when a French four times winner of the Tour de France (1961–1964) was named as one of the first cyclists to use the technique. Widespread use among endurance athletes (especially running, cycling, and cross country skiing) started after the 1968 Olympic Games...

Very interesting...thanks for posting. Along those lines is a CN 2-part series on the history of blood doping. In-depth with cycling but also expounds on athletics:

Lord Lucan wrote:

Lord Lucan wrote:

How many British middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many Moroccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping?

How many British and Morccan middle to long distance runners have been caught for doping/PED since 1990?

Definitely more Moroccans than British runners.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Interesting, you are referring you the Adenauer-Merkel CDU party?

Yes. Without counting, I'd estimate they have been ruling Germany 3/4 of the time since World War II.

And post-1990, they were all too eager to keep the East German teams together. All of the sudden, the previously despised communist dopers became heroic clean Germans. Like Krabbe, Breuer and Wachtel for example. Medal table in Seville 1991: USSR - Germany - USA. Nothing to see here, well except for a German world record or two.

Double Olympic 1500m Champion vs an athlete who never won a global title at the event.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

...vs an athlete who never won a global title at the event.

like Steve Ovett

there are more wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

...vs an athlete who never won a global title at the event.

like Steve Ovett

What's your point? At least Ovett didn't duck Coe over 1500 and even ran in the final at LA when he should have been in his hospital bed. Compare with Aouita's decision making for LA.

Ovett had 3 global events in his prime - Moscow 80, Helsinki 83, LA 84. Helsinki he was coming back from two years of injury and would likely still have won if he hadn't gotten so badly blocked. LA we all know what happened. Some people think that was the most incredible display by a British athlete in Olympic history, to make two finals when he was being advised by doctors to stay in hospital.

Ovett won the World Cup in 77, 79, and 81 when it was pretty much the World Championships without rounds.

Aouita had 83 Helsinki, 84 LA, 87 Rome and 88 Seoul. In 84 and 87 he ducked the Brits, lost in Helsinki when he had the fastest time of the season going in to the event, and in 88 couldn't even make the final.

Coevett wrote:

Ovett won the World Cup in 77, 79, and 81.

nope

Ovett did avoid Coe (and vice versa) on the circuit though.

Purposely entering races, then Coe withdraws, and Ovett ends up not even racing.

Coe and Ovett avoided each other many times, instead focused on WRs and wins. Hence they only raced 7 times in their whole career.

flex-drummer wrote:

Coevett wrote:

Ovett won the World Cup in 77, 79, and 81.

nope

Ovett won the WC in 1977 which was a precursor to the modern WCs and he won the Olympic 800m (with a negative split).

Coevette, another small lie. Doctor Wessinghage won 1500m, World Cup, 1979.

You want us to believe you when you state Coe wasn't on the sauce, but you continue to come on letsrun telling small lies on a daily basis.