A boxer who physically loses 100 pounds is different from a boxer who identifies as being 100 pounds lighter when he actually isn’t.
A boxer who physically loses 100 pounds is different from a boxer who identifies as being 100 pounds lighter when he actually isn’t.
real brain differences wrote:
NCAA are temporarily allowing this to happen. Much like World Athletes with Semenya. First it was just her, then the 2016 Olympic women’s 800m podium consisted of individuals with testes (you don’t get male levels of testosterone with them), and they knew they needed to act.
If enough people let the NCAA know how they feel about allowing males to compete in female competitions, then things will change.
This is temporary. Hopefully, trasgendered people will have their own categories in the future, perhaps at the para Olympic level even.
All those red states banning transgender athletes has undoubtedly gotten the attention of the N.C.A.A. You say the N.C.A.A. transgender rules are temporary but they've been in place for over ten years.
real brain differences wrote:
A boxer who physically loses 100 pounds is different from a boxer who identifies as being 100 pounds lighter when he actually isn’t.
I agree. As that relates to this issue though, the University of Pennsylvania, the NCAA, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the United States of America agree that Lia Thomas is a woman.
Facts don't care about your feelings. If your entire argument is "Lia Thomas" is a man pretending to be a woman, then you have no argument.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
malarko wrote:
I don’t know if I remember that situation in quite the same way. June had a rough outing at XC regionals (maybe on purpose) which is what I think a lot of people focus on, but then won the conference mile indoors, which Jonathan hadn’t done. COVID came along right about then and nerfed the rest of that season. From what we got to see though, June was definitely more competitive than Jonathan.
As a guy, June ran the equivalent of a 4:08 mile and never broke 4:40 as a woman. The reason she was more competitive was because her conference's women's division was far less competitive than the men's side.
So the reason Eastwood easily trounced so many female competitors isn't because Eastwood has all the physical advantages that come from being a fully-developed young adult male, it's because the girls/women Eastwood ran against weren't good enough? They weren't competitive enough to give Eastwood a run for Eastwood's money? That's really the explanation you want to go with?
https://youtu.be/rpHyJgORPXgYou sound exactly like the proudly misogynistic male trans activist and professional bullshxtter Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon, who told CNN that the reason two strapping male high schoolers wearing weaves/wigs now hold 15 records in CT girls' HS track isn't because they've been through the testosterone-fueled male puberties of infancy and adolescence that endowed them with all the physical characteristics that give adolescent and adult males huge advantages over females in athletics - "it's because the 'cis' girls weren't fast enough."
Talk about blaming the victim!
Males who use gender identity claims to get the chance to drub girls and women in sports, and those that support them doing so, frequently employ the same sort of "logic." They say the only reasons girls and women repeatedly get beat by trans-identified males in physical contests of speed and strength is because females don't train or try hard enough; we lack discipline, competitive spirit and sufficient drive to win; we're too ditzy and scatterbrained to have proper focus; we can't handle pain; and often we're just plain lazy.
During the puberty of adolescence, the hearts of human males grow to be 33% larger on average than the hearts of females of their same age, height and weight - and this is one of the many thousands of physical disparities between the sexes that remain lifelong. Seems odd, then, that so many full-grown men are utterly heartless when it comes to women and girls - and have no shame about openly demonstrating just how heartless they are.
A third female swimmer has now come forward to complain that competing against Thomas is "unfair" and "impossible," among other terms:
Meanwhile, an anonymous scrawl at the University of Pennsylvania Natatorium reads: "Hey, Lia! How's it hangin'?"
(Since taken down)
Yep. This situation is Orwellian. We are all supposed to pretend that this situation is not fundamentally unfair and that there are not fundamental biological differences between men and women that make forcing women to compete with men in sports so ridiculous. And we are all just supposed to humor this absurdity and pretend it is not unjust, to ignore the coercion and bullying being imposed on these female athletes and to selectively treat some things as important while arbitrarily treating other considerations as trivial. And all this is supposed to be a great, noble cause that gives meaning to people's lives as they champion the cause. It is pitiful.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
real brain differences wrote:
A boxer who physically loses 100 pounds is different from a boxer who identifies as being 100 pounds lighter when he actually isn’t.
I agree. As that relates to this issue though, the University of Pennsylvania, the NCAA, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, and the United States of America agree that Lia Thomas is a woman.
Facts don't care about your feelings. If your entire argument is "Lia Thomas" is a man pretending to be a woman, then you have no argument.
Assuming Lia Thomas is legally a woman, (which I have not checked), that is still not relevant to sports. Transwomen do not belong in women's sports unless they can provide clear evidence they have neutralized their inherent male advantages. Lia Thomas may be legally a woman but she is also a man. You can be both, one in a legal and social sense, another in a physical sense.
slaaa wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
An average male is better in most areas than the best women. This means that most women don't stand a chance. You don't think that suggests a problem?
How good is the average man when supressing test and taking estrogen? From what I have seen, nope it isnt much of a problem.
From what you've seen? Are you joking? There are only a few examples of this occurring so far on a competitive level. You think suddenly this dude who was a very average NCAA men's swimmer, suddenly after a year off and is dominating natal women coincidentally? It's so obvious it's a major problem.
Same thing with Cici, only worse. Women and men are much better matched in running(10 to 12% difference). When muscle mass plays more of a role(like swimming and weight lifting) the advantage skyrockets to 30%.
SOME of the performance advantage goes away either testosterone suppression. But most of it remains.
Armstronglivs wrote:
slaaa wrote:
How good is the average man when supressing test and taking estrogen? From what I have seen, nope it isnt much of a problem.
How many average men do you know suppressing testosterone and taking oestrogen?
Close to 100% that are competing as trans woman after high school.... We aren't talking about guys in drag racing. We are talking trans woman...
I personally think the idea of gender is a useless construct.
There's sex, which is binary, and dimorphic(many attributes are non-overlapping although some physical characteristics overlap).
Then there's personality. Personality is affected by sex, but there are still effeminate men and masculine women. There are still dudes that like to dance and chicks that like MMA. Doesn't mean you're stuck in the wrong body.
This obsession with everyone who doesn't fit cleanly into the "gender binary" needs to chop off their genitalia and take hormones to permanently change their body is dangerous. It isn't progress, that's for sure. It's become so out of control that countless adolescents who never expressed an ounce of "gender dysphoria" are suddenly undergoing drastic procedures that will change them forever. These are invariably odd kids that had trouble fitting in. They used to dress in goth and get weird haircuts. Now they chop off their genitalia.
runnER/DR wrote:
I personally think the idea of gender is a useless construct.
There's sex, which is binary, and dimorphic(many attributes are non-overlapping although some physical characteristics overlap).
Then there's personality. Personality is affected by sex, but there are still effeminate men and masculine women. There are still dudes that like to dance and chicks that like MMA. Doesn't mean you're stuck in the wrong body.
This obsession with everyone who doesn't fit cleanly into the "gender binary" needs to chop off their genitalia and take hormones to permanently change their body is dangerous. It isn't progress, that's for sure. It's become so out of control that countless adolescents who never expressed an ounce of "gender dysphoria" are suddenly undergoing drastic procedures that will change them forever. These are invariably odd kids that had trouble fitting in. They used to dress in goth and get weird haircuts. Now they chop off their genitalia.
Neither sex nor gender is binary.
However, sports are binary, so individuals need to fit into the binary system to be sorted into the correct races.
The argument against Lia Thomas is that she is a woman in every aspect of her life... except for sports.
The argument for Lia Thomas competing as a woman is that she is a woman in every aspect of her life, including sports.
People keep throwing around the word "Orwellian" who have clearly have no idea what that is suggesting. They argue that a woman is a woman for 23.9 hours out of the day, but while she swims in a pool, she is a man. That's kooky if you ask me.
Yes, sex is binary.
Men have a penis. Women have a clitoris. Men have a scrotum. Women have the vulva. Men, as it turns out, do not have a uterus. Sex is binary, my friend. Even testosterone levels are non-overlapping in men and women. Sexual dimorphism isn't just a human thing by the way. It is present all throughout the animal kingdom with very rare exceptions.
There are rare instances when sex is ambiguous. This is somewhere on the order of 1 in 1000 people. But occasional anomalies don't make sex non-binary. They are anomalies. Sex
RunRagged wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
As a guy, June ran the equivalent of a 4:08 mile and never broke 4:40 as a woman. The reason she was more competitive was because her conference's women's division was far less competitive than the men's side.
So the reason Eastwood easily trounced so many female competitors isn't because Eastwood has all the physical advantages that come from being a fully-developed young adult male, it's because the girls/women Eastwood ran against weren't good enough? They weren't competitive enough to give Eastwood a run for Eastwood's money? That's really the explanation you want to go with?
https://youtu.be/rpHyJgORPXgYou sound exactly like the proudly misogynistic male trans activist and professional bullshxtter Veronica Ivy/Rachel McKinnon, who told CNN that the reason two strapping male high schoolers wearing weaves/wigs now hold 15 records in CT girls' HS track isn't because they've been through the testosterone-fueled male puberties of infancy and adolescence that endowed them with all the physical characteristics that give adolescent and adult males huge advantages over females in athletics - "it's because the 'cis' girls weren't fast enough."
Talk about blaming the victim!
Males who use gender identity claims to get the chance to drub girls and women in sports, and those that support them doing so, frequently employ the same sort of "logic." They say the only reasons girls and women repeatedly get beat by trans-identified males in physical contests of speed and strength is because females don't train or try hard enough; we lack discipline, competitive spirit and sufficient drive to win; we're too ditzy and scatterbrained to have proper focus; we can't handle pain; and often we're just plain lazy.
During the puberty of adolescence, the hearts of human males grow to be 33% larger on average than the hearts of females of their same age, height and weight - and this is one of the many thousands of physical disparities between the sexes that remain lifelong. Seems odd, then, that so many full-grown men are utterly heartless when it comes to women and girls - and have no shame about openly demonstrating just how heartless they are.
Calm down. I was responding to other poster's claim that June's Regionals XC race was an outlier and that she was much faster in track. She running 4:40ish compared to a 3:50 1500m as a male, indicates she had slowed significantly from the hormone treatments. It is a fact that the Big Sky Conference is more competitive on the men's side and I don't know why you are so offended by me pointing that out.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Calm down. I was responding to other poster's claim that June's Regionals XC race was an outlier and that she was much faster in track. She running 4:40ish compared to a 3:50 1500m as a male, indicates she had slowed significantly from the hormone treatments. It is a fact that the Big Sky Conference is more competitive on the men's side and I don't know why you are so offended by me pointing that out.
3:50 outdoor 1500m for men is worth 976 points in the scoring table.
4:46 indoor mile for women is worth 1035 points.
In order for the performances to be comparable, her indoor mile had to be around 4:54, which was the time of the runner-up in the Big Sky championship.
Hormone therapy has slowed her down, but not enough to create the level playing field.
runnER/DR wrote:
I personally think the idea of gender is a useless construct.
There's sex, which is binary, and dimorphic(many attributes are non-overlapping although some physical characteristics overlap).
Then there's personality. Personality is affected by sex, but there are still effeminate men and masculine women. There are still dudes that like to dance and chicks that like MMA. Doesn't mean you're stuck in the wrong body.
This obsession with everyone who doesn't fit cleanly into the "gender binary" needs to chop off their genitalia and take hormones to permanently change their body is dangerous. It isn't progress, that's for sure. It's become so out of control that countless adolescents who never expressed an ounce of "gender dysphoria" are suddenly undergoing drastic procedures that will change them forever. These are invariably odd kids that had trouble fitting in. They used to dress in goth and get weird haircuts. Now they chop off their genitalia.
This really hits the nail on the head. Society, for the most part, has snuggled up to the concept of gender dysphoria. Most here would agree with live and let live as it pertains to gender.
The activists are attempting to hijack the concept and take it to extremes, i.e., surgery, drugs, hormones, etc. Those extremes have the potential to physically and mentally harm countless individuals.
To the SDSUs of the World; why wouldn't a gay male take advantage of becoming Trans to reap the benefits of Title IX? I don't believe that some dude would change genders willy nilly to become competitive but I do believe that a gay male categorizing himself as female to participate in sport will become all the rage in due course. Aside from societal condemnation there is more upside than downside.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Calm down. I was responding to other poster's claim that June's Regionals XC race was an outlier and that she was much faster in track. She running 4:40ish compared to a 3:50 1500m as a male, indicates she had slowed significantly from the hormone treatments. It is a fact that the Big Sky Conference is more competitive on the men's side and I don't know why you are so offended by me pointing that out.
"Calm down"? Maybe you should just tell her to stop being so hysterical. That would definitely demonstrate your commitment to feminism.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
I don't care what someone used to be. I care what they are.
You're trying to have it both ways here. First you said that anyone who calls themselves a woman is a woman, treating woman as a purely nominal category. Now you're saying you care what someone is, treating womanhood as something essential to their being. You're being incoherent, which suggests commitment to a position beyond what facts and logic can support.
In the weight class example, the agreement between what someone says they are ("I'm a lightweight!") and reality can be empirically verified ("Do you weigh 155 pounds or less?"). You are arguing that we should treat gender in sport as the opposite of that, but not convincingly because you completely fail to deal with the giant logical hole at the heart of your argument. Your position is that men and women are indistinguishable except by what they call themselves. What people are trying to tell you is that for several important purposes, including sport, men and women are in fact physically distinguishable, and that the distinction between them is important in these contexts. You're pounding on the law, but the facts aren't on your side.
Jefe in the CO wrote:
runnER/DR wrote:
I personally think the idea of gender is a useless construct.
There's sex, which is binary, and dimorphic(many attributes are non-overlapping although some physical characteristics overlap).
Then there's personality. Personality is affected by sex, but there are still effeminate men and masculine women. There are still dudes that like to dance and chicks that like MMA. Doesn't mean you're stuck in the wrong body.
This obsession with everyone who doesn't fit cleanly into the "gender binary" needs to chop off their genitalia and take hormones to permanently change their body is dangerous. It isn't progress, that's for sure. It's become so out of control that countless adolescents who never expressed an ounce of "gender dysphoria" are suddenly undergoing drastic procedures that will change them forever. These are invariably odd kids that had trouble fitting in. They used to dress in goth and get weird haircuts. Now they chop off their genitalia.
This really hits the nail on the head. Society, for the most part, has snuggled up to the concept of gender dysphoria. Most here would agree with live and let live as it pertains to gender.
The activists are attempting to hijack the concept and take it to extremes, i.e., surgery, drugs, hormones, etc. Those extremes have the potential to physically and mentally harm countless individuals.
To the SDSUs of the World; why wouldn't a gay male take advantage of becoming Trans to reap the benefits of Title IX? I don't believe that some dude would change genders willy nilly to become competitive but I do believe that a gay male categorizing himself as female to participate in sport will become all the rage in due course. Aside from societal condemnation there is more upside than downside.
I don't believe a gay male has done such a thing so that's only speculation on your part. I don't know if becoming a villain is reaping the benefits of Title IX anyway.
colder and wiser wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
Calm down. I was responding to other poster's claim that June's Regionals XC race was an outlier and that she was much faster in track. She running 4:40ish compared to a 3:50 1500m as a male, indicates she had slowed significantly from the hormone treatments. It is a fact that the Big Sky Conference is more competitive on the men's side and I don't know why you are so offended by me pointing that out.
"Calm down"? Maybe you should just tell her to stop being so hysterical. That would definitely demonstrate your commitment to feminism.
Feminism doesn't have anything to do with me and women can do whatever they want. I wrote "calm down" because she went berserk over me saying the Big Sky Conference is more competitive on the men's side.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
I don't believe a gay male has done such a thing so that's only speculation on your part. I don't know if becoming a villain is reaping the benefits of Title IX anyway.
Yes, thanks for acknowledging that I'm speculating when I state that this may become a larger problem over time.
To keep things fair, I'll acknowledge that your position that it's not a big deal now nor will it ever be a big deal in the future is speculation as well.
Cheers.