A lot of other people have said similar, but it just sounds like you have the biological profile of a sprinter.
For reference, I doubt I'd even break 60 seconds for 400m at the moment, but I ran a 3000m a few weeks ago at under 5 minute mile pace, and I can get fairly close to averaging that pace in a 5k.
I reckon some guys can break 4:10, with 55 second 400m speed, and a very select few would get close to breaking 4.
It's an open outdoor road mile called "spirit run" in Newport beach. Has all legit timing and scoring with splits but it is slightly downhill (-60ft?) and feels easier than lapping a track. They have a 5k event as well that I'll be doing to get in some extra miles afterwards.
i'll be out there to cheer on calcoast teammates--flatlux, don't know where you live, but if you're local OC, you should consider training with us tuesday nights at corona del mar hs. if interested, look for the calcoast tent that should be set up out there somewhere...
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
Congrats, man! That's excellent pacing. The median guy in his late 30s wouldn't be able to run a sub 5 minute mile regardless of how much training he does, so you definitely accomplished something noteworthy.
Just out of curiosity, did you go under 5 on a banked indoor track or on a flat one? Also, what was your training like for the past few weeks (weekly mileage, workout frequency, taper, etc.)? Were there any key workouts you felt that made a big difference?
The track was banked. Although lane 1 was pretty flat, you do feel it some when passing in lane 2.
I was doing 45-50 mpw in most of the build up. I bombed my key mile pace workout (12 x 400) in the build-up, but otherwise felt great in everything else. I did some slower tempos (5 miles @ 6:20 pace) within long runs, which felt amazing. For me, I don’t have raw speed, but my endurance is also not great, so these workouts helped me feel stronger.
Finally, running negative splits just works for me. Going for even splits in other recent efforts just left me feeling flat in the second half of the race!
It's an open outdoor road mile called "spirit run" in Newport beach. Has all legit timing and scoring with splits but it is slightly downhill (-60ft?) and feels easier than lapping a track. They have a 5k event as well that I'll be doing to get in some extra miles afterwards.
i'll be out there to cheer on calcoast teammates--flatlux, don't know where you live, but if you're local OC, you should consider training with us tuesday nights at corona del mar hs. if interested, look for the calcoast tent that should be set up out there somewhere...
That sounds great. Just got home and saw this post but would love to get on a track again. I am local. I will look you guys up.
I went a couple seconds faster than last year, right around 5'32". Would have been happy with that before the race but after crossing the finish line I realized I left too much in the tank. Was having a conversation seconds later and feeling not bad. Nothing like the burning/ sick feeling i had last year. So I think I paced way too conservatively. Ground was wet and I could feel some slip at the end of every stride and I think that made me hold back a bit.
Ran the 5k after to get in some training miles in just under 21', and that felt good too.
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
Huge congrats! That is one tough barrier to break for us Average Joes.
It's inspiring to read your story of finally breaking 5 at age 39. I'm a few years younger, so maybe my PR days aren't over yet. We'll see!
Thanks, man! You certainly have some time still. You mentioned before that going sub-5 might quench your running drive, but sounds like you may be still dabbling?
So I’ve posted a handful of times on this thread along the way about my own struggle and obsession with breaking 5. I suppose now that the OP’s journey is over, I can continue to post occasionally to keep the spirit of the tribulations alive.
Because there are like 500 posts, quick summary:
Curently in my late 30s. Started running in early - mid 30s getting my mile time from 5:50 -> 5:10 in about 18 months (although the latter was a net downhill of like 20-30 ft). I was focused on longer distances then, but got injured for several years.
Finally got some consistency in running again three years ago. The most recent efforts on the track:
-5:09 (April 2021), 5:08 (Oct ‘21), and then 5:06 and 5:04 this past month. Another race in 9 days. Hoping to split the difference b/w where I am and my goal.
Consistently inching there, but it’s so slow going and I’m not that far from being 40, so it’s either happening soon or not at all. I’m going at it hard this year. We’ll see if my opportunity has passed me by or not soon enough.
And yes, it’s damn hard for a regular dude. I’ve always been involved in sport to some degree even if I wasn’t a runner growing up. There’s a huge difference between going for this in HS and being an adult and giving it a go.
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
What does your training look like, if I may ask? Sounds like I'm starting from a similar age and finish time.
Thanks, man! You certainly have some time still. You mentioned before that going sub-5 might quench your running drive, but sounds like you may be still dabbling?
Yup!
I did some soul searching running-wise after last year's 4:57 and soon came to the conclusion that I'll always be a runner in some form or another. It's pretty convenient (unlike most activities, you don't need much equipment, nor do you need people to play against), and it keeps me healthy and in shape for my other outdoor hobbies.
The recreational jogger vs serious competitor question is the one that I'm still pondering today. Is it worth putting in all that time and effort into training seriously if you have no realistic chance of setting PRs or being a top age-group competitor? For some, it is, but for me, I'm not sure.
I jogged around a bit (maybe 10-15 mpw?) for most of last spring, summer, and fall. But I guess the FOMO kicked in since there were some all-comers meets going on in winter, so I ramped up my training around Thanksgiving and entered a few of those meets. As expected, most of my races were sub-par, but I did have a fairly decent day where I ran a 4:45 1500, 1:38 600, and a 10:46 3000 in the same meet:
It finally happened!! 4:59, baby! I’m stunned that after years of grinding toward this I finally got there.
The plan was to start conservatively and pick up steam. I came through 209m in 39 and then followed up with 38/39/37/37/37/36/36. I ended up running a lot in lane 2 on the curves, which wasn’t ideal, but it always felt like people were slowing on the turns and that’s where my opportunities were.
Like OP, I had inched toward the goal for years as an adult, but never quite got there…setback, injuries, and just not having enough fitness plagued me for years. Then, also like the OP, it all came together during an indoor season. I’m turning 40 this year, so I really felt the pressure to make it happen. If I couldn’t do it in my 30s, no reason to think my 40s would be any different.
While only being able to eek out a sub-5 mile is not noteworthy around here, for the average adult without much of a background growing up in running, this was by far the most physically challenging pursuit I’ve worked toward. It takes a lot of desire, grit, and commitment from us plebeian folks.
Thanks to Elusive Dreams for starting this incredible thread! I enjoyed watching, being inspired by his journey, and then eventually breaking through myself. Hopefully there is more to come, but I can rest easy having finally achieved this dream. What a joy, what a relief, what an adventure!
What does your training look like, if I may ask? Sounds like I'm starting from a similar age and finish time.
Usually average ~50mpw, with every 4-5 weeks being a down week of ~40. Occasional 60 mile weeks between blocks of training. 6 days on, with one day off to help with recovery. Half my long runs are moderate effort or have slow tempo portions, and are 10ish miles. Strides once a week and before workouts. Lifting 1-3 times per week.
My workouts span the gauntlet from 800m pace to threshold. I personally benefit from threshold work because that is what I’m weaker at, and then slanting toward speedier stuff as the goal race approached. In the build-up, I wasn’t doing any monster workouts, with the hardest being a 12 x 400 @ mile effort which I struggled through/missed targets. In the final month, many workouts would start with threshold work and then finish with 5k and faster pacing.
You’re welcome to ask any other questions, and I hope you keep updating this thread. It would be great if it lives on for regular runners who have the passion to keep at it and achieve things that for us are incredible feats, even if comparatively mundane to most of the letsrun community.
Elusive dreams started this with his journey and kept at it until he broke through. It similarly took me a long time, and I wondered if it was in the cards for me. It was quite comforting to follow along here to keep my own dream alive use it as motivation. Hopefully the torch continues to get passed!
Thanks, man! You certainly have some time still. You mentioned before that going sub-5 might quench your running drive, but sounds like you may be still dabbling?
Yup!
I did some soul searching running-wise after last year's 4:57 and soon came to the conclusion that I'll always be a runner in some form or another. It's pretty convenient (unlike most activities, you don't need much equipment, nor do you need people to play against), and it keeps me healthy and in shape for my other outdoor hobbies.
The recreational jogger vs serious competitor question is the one that I'm still pondering today. Is it worth putting in all that time and effort into training seriously if you have no realistic chance of setting PRs or being a top age-group competitor? For some, it is, but for me, I'm not sure.
I jogged around a bit (maybe 10-15 mpw?) for most of last spring, summer, and fall. But I guess the FOMO kicked in since there were some all-comers meets going on in winter, so I ramped up my training around Thanksgiving and entered a few of those meets. As expected, most of my races were sub-par, but I did have a fairly decent day where I ran a 4:45 1500, 1:38 600, and a 10:46 3000 in the same meet:
I just finished a 33-mile week and suppose the next logical goal would be a sub 4:30 1500. But I'll be happy if I can break my 4:36.9 PR next month.
Wow, that’s an impressive day! I’ve never gone multi-event at a meet— maybe a future goal. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Really glad you took some time to relish the 4:57. You really crushed it. But that’s awesome that you still have the fire burning. There’s nothing like the exhilaration of a good race day performance, and I can see how that could bring you back in the fold. A low 4:30s 1500 would be pretty special! Let us know how it goes if you give it a try.
While I’m keeping the training going, this is the first time that I haven’t immediately set a new goal after having a good race. It’s nice to breathe. Not sure what’s next for me; perhaps I’ll go after a 17:30 5k (currently at 17:56) in the spring before possibly trying a road mile in the summer. Mentally I need a break from a track mile after being so singularly focused the past few years.
Anyway glad you are still on these boards and wishing you the best. Hopefully there are more postives in store for each of us on the track this year.
What does your training look like, if I may ask? Sounds like I'm starting from a similar age and finish time.
Usually average ~50mpw, with every 4-5 weeks being a down week of ~40. Occasional 60 mile weeks between blocks of training. 6 days on, with one day off to help with recovery. Half my long runs are moderate effort or have slow tempo portions, and are 10ish miles. Strides once a week and before workouts. Lifting 1-3 times per week.
My workouts span the gauntlet from 800m pace to threshold. I personally benefit from threshold work because that is what I’m weaker at, and then slanting toward speedier stuff as the goal race approached. In the build-up, I wasn’t doing any monster workouts, with the hardest being a 12 x 400 @ mile effort which I struggled through/missed targets. In the final month, many workouts would start with threshold work and then finish with 5k and faster pacing.
You’re welcome to ask any other questions, and I hope you keep updating this thread. It would be great if it lives on for regular runners who have the passion to keep at it and achieve things that for us are incredible feats, even if comparatively mundane to most of the letsrun community.
Elusive dreams started this with his journey and kept at it until he broke through. It similarly took me a long time, and I wondered if it was in the cards for me. It was quite comforting to follow along here to keep my own dream alive use it as motivation. Hopefully the torch continues to get passed!
I liked the training logs that Elusive dreams posted in the weeks and months before he went under 5. Gives us some good indicator workouts/races and a rough blueprint for tapering, though it's probably more applicable to the fast-twitch folks.
Anyway, what were your rest periods for that 12x400 session, and did you wear spikes for it? I think the best I ever did was 10x400 at mile pace in trainers, but this was with a fairly long recovery. I think it was a slow 300m jog that took ~1:45, IIRC.
Usually average ~50mpw, with every 4-5 weeks being a down week of ~40. Occasional 60 mile weeks between blocks of training. 6 days on, with one day off to help with recovery. Half my long runs are moderate effort or have slow tempo portions, and are 10ish miles. Strides once a week and before workouts. Lifting 1-3 times per week.
My workouts span the gauntlet from 800m pace to threshold. I personally benefit from threshold work because that is what I’m weaker at, and then slanting toward speedier stuff as the goal race approached. In the build-up, I wasn’t doing any monster workouts, with the hardest being a 12 x 400 @ mile effort which I struggled through/missed targets. In the final month, many workouts would start with threshold work and then finish with 5k and faster pacing.
You’re welcome to ask any other questions, and I hope you keep updating this thread. It would be great if it lives on for regular runners who have the passion to keep at it and achieve things that for us are incredible feats, even if comparatively mundane to most of the letsrun community.
Elusive dreams started this with his journey and kept at it until he broke through. It similarly took me a long time, and I wondered if it was in the cards for me. It was quite comforting to follow along here to keep my own dream alive use it as motivation. Hopefully the torch continues to get passed!
I liked the training logs that Elusive dreams posted in the weeks and months before he went under 5. Gives us some good indicator workouts/races and a rough blueprint for tapering, though it's probably more applicable to the fast-twitch folks.
Anyway, what were your rest periods for that 12x400 session, and did you wear spikes for it? I think the best I ever did was 10x400 at mile pace in trainers, but this was with a fairly long recovery. I think it was a slow 300m jog that took ~1:45, IIRC.
Sure! It was a 3 x (4 x 400) w/ 90s rests and 3 min b/w sets. Averaged 78s, so way off! It was a solo workoit and I just had no juice that day. But fortunately 11 days later I had it in me.
Other key workouts in basically reverse order were
-5 x 800 progression (2:04-2:08 for first 600, 37-38 for last 200) with 4 min recovery
-6 x 1k in 3:50 w/ 200j + 6 x 200 in 39 w/ 200j
-10 x 300 in 59s w/ very, very slow 100m jog
-10 miles w/ 5 @ 6:20 pace
-400 in 65s, 6 min rest, + 2 x (300 in 51, 200 in 34, 100 in 17) w/ 3/2/1 min rest.
As you can see, no barn-burners of workouts. For a guy who is 39, can’t burn the midnight oil every workout. Just consistency across different systems.
My race was on a Saturday, so the week before I went 10 on Sunday, 9 on Monday, a fartlek (3k - 800m paces) Tuesday, 6 on Wed., off Thursday, 5 + strides Friday, and 1 mile shake-out morning of the race. Felt very fresh on race day and my legs were still feeling light halfway through the race. Often the last 400m they are totally spent and my kick sucks. While not blazing, I was able to close the final 800 in 2:27 with the final two laps being low 36s, which I gladly will take.
I liked the training logs that Elusive dreams posted in the weeks and months before he went under 5. Gives us some good indicator workouts/races and a rough blueprint for tapering, though it's probably more applicable to the fast-twitch folks.
Anyway, what were your rest periods for that 12x400 session, and did you wear spikes for it? I think the best I ever did was 10x400 at mile pace in trainers, but this was with a fairly long recovery. I think it was a slow 300m jog that took ~1:45, IIRC.
Sure! It was a 3 x (4 x 400) w/ 90s rests and 3 min b/w sets. Averaged 78s, so way off! It was a solo workoit and I just had no juice that day. But fortunately 11 days later I had it in me.
Other key workouts in basically reverse order were
-5 x 800 progression (2:04-2:08 for first 600, 37-38 for last 200) with 4 min recovery
-6 x 1k in 3:50 w/ 200j + 6 x 200 in 39 w/ 200j
-10 x 300 in 59s w/ very, very slow 100m jog
-10 miles w/ 5 @ 6:20 pace
-400 in 65s, 6 min rest, + 2 x (300 in 51, 200 in 34, 100 in 17) w/ 3/2/1 min rest.
As you can see, no barn-burners of workouts. For a guy who is 39, can’t burn the midnight oil every workout. Just consistency across different systems.
My race was on a Saturday, so the week before I went 10 on Sunday, 9 on Monday, a fartlek (3k - 800m paces) Tuesday, 6 on Wed., off Thursday, 5 + strides Friday, and 1 mile shake-out morning of the race. Felt very fresh on race day and my legs were still feeling light halfway through the race. Often the last 400m they are totally spent and my kick sucks. While not blazing, I was able to close the final 800 in 2:27 with the final two laps being low 36s, which I gladly will take.
I currently am a Freshman going into spring track and Ran a 4:58.63 indoor recently. 10 months ago I ran a 5:24. Personally I don't think that it is impossible to Break five for most people. I also don't think knowing the workouts sub 5 people do is really key. Once you get to 5:00-5:10 it is more of a mental issue. Sub 5 if the entry to the fast miler world, I would argue 4:45 is more of the mark that not everyone can hit. It also depends as it is much easier for males to break five which is what I am referring to. However, If you want example workouts I can post my training logs.
I currently am a Freshman going into spring track and Ran a 4:58.63 indoor recently. 10 months ago I ran a 5:24. Personally I don't think that it is impossible to Break five for most people. I also don't think knowing the workouts sub 5 people do is really key. Once you get to 5:00-5:10 it is more of a mental issue. Sub 5 if the entry to the fast miler world, I would argue 4:45 is more of the mark that not everyone can hit. It also depends as it is much easier for males to break five which is what I am referring to. However, If you want example workouts I can post my training logs.
For older people, (i.e. not teenagers) it's much harder to run these kinds of times. HS guys with a fair amount of talent can break 5 with a few seasons of good consistent training. The OP seems to be more of a fast twitch guy and past their teenage years where dropping times while training consistently in almost a certainty.
TLDR: for someone like you, that might be trivial, but for others, not so much.
Elusive dreams - man, if you're still wanting to compete and you've achieved your mile goal, then train for the 400m!! You could probably get incredible times in that, it's very obviously your best event. I get that you wanted to hit sub 5, but you've done it now! Why not spend 5 years training for the 400m and get down to 51 or 52? Those would be amazing times and it would be a lot of fun to get after.
