This thread has descended into a tantrum by a drunk 70 year old man who can't have a civilized conversation with people who disagree with him.
Your problem here is as follows:
1. Nothing in Armstronglivs posts gives association to drunkenness.
2. There’s nothing wrong in being a “70 year old man”.
3. I myself have disagreed a lot with Armstronglivs in multiple threads -not a single time has he insulted me.
4. You repeatability use words like “dumb” in your posts, and hidden behind (possibly multiple) unregistered handle (s) -are you surprised by the problems in having “a civilised conversation” given your style here..?
Have you just read this thread? I stated facts, pure facts. Everything has to explained to him ten times. Than he changes everything what you have said if he doesn't like the fact. Do you understand this?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a serious discussion with him if he doesn't LIKE the presented facts. Just one example of countless ones in this forum: I told him that Herb Elliott has lost many times outside of his main distance 1500m/Mile. A fact. He lost in 1958. He lost in 1959 a year where he didn't even competed internationally. He lost many times in 1960, the year of his Olympic title. He doesn't like those facts. Then he calls me a liar because Elliott never has lost a 1500m/Mile as a senior runner - when it was told him ten times that Elliott has lost over 800m/880y, 1000m, 2 Miles. Everybody knows - and it was discussed earlier in this thread many times - that Elliott has not lost over 1500m/Mile as a senior. It's going always exactly like this. For sure one possibility for this unbelievable behaviour might be that he is drunk. Or some sort of mental illness. Or just his unbelievable bad character which didn't allow him just to agree to facts which are against his agenda. He has called me bad names over and over again in this forum - just for stating facts. Not some sort of opinion on something, facts. Sometimes he acts so dumb that it is hurting for any rational and objective reader.
And for sure you can ask for GOAT distance runner (I think for Ingebrigtsen it's 1500m and up whereas usually it's 800m and up - but this will not change a lot). Currently for most it's Bekele with his great achievements from 1500m to Marathon. Close to him for me is Gebrselassie with a World indoor title at 1500m and two Marathon WRs (and all their achievements in between). El Guerrouj totally dominated the 1500m/Mile, but his achievements in other events for me doesn't make him a true challenger of the other two - despite a 5000m Olympic Gold. Others might think differently. There never can be a clear measure. Something like this never can be some sort of official title, it's a fun game from fans. Can Ingebrigtsen become the GOAT distance runner? For sure, with his wonderful achievements up to age 22, he has a serious chance. Also very, very difficult. Even for a single event, in most cases there can't be a ultimate answer. Rudisha in the 800m? Yes, I also would say so. But Coe and Kipketer at their very best were - for me slightly better than him. What to do that Kipketer was denied his 95% chance in Atlanta? And now? Please read the unbelievable comments of Armstronglivs just in this thread. He should have banned years ago.
Everything you say about Jakob becoming the best in all running disciplines in years to come remains fantasy until it is accomplished. For now, it is largely his fantasy and those of running fans who simply do not recognise how difficult it is even for a very talented athlete to dominate one event let alone a range of them.
Jakob will be irrelevant in any event shorter than the 1500. At his age and with injuries the chances of gaining the world records in the 1500/mile are receding. He has been shown to be vulnerable in championship races at that distance. His best distances appear to be non-championship events from the 2k to 2miles. He has won a WC 5k title but there has been no indication that he could take the wr for that event and dominate it in Olympic and WC competition in years to come, as Bekele once did. There is nothing that puts him in contention with Bekele at any greater distance, such as the 10k.
If he is fit enough to compete at Paris - and doesn't have a "cold" - I would expect him to at least medal in one event, maybe two. But with the competition out there another gold is a longer shot. He's trying to talk himself into the history books. It won't happen.
I think if we discuss who THE Goat is it must be the guy who is from 800m to Marathon. Sprint is another business.
But it also makes sense to talk about the Goat in the 800m, the 1500/ mile, the 10,000m, in X country and more.
I would say in the same order:
Rudisha
El-Guerrouj
Bekele (Gebrselassie close)
Bekele.
I saw that somebody wrote that your hero Herb Elliott wouldn´t even be in top 10 for 1500m/ mile runners.
I would say that he should be no. 3 or 4 competing with Snell about no 3.
Elliott can´t beat El-G olympic gold and silver, his 4 WC golds and his WRs in the 1500m, the mile and the 2000m.
Neither can he beat Coe´s double olympic gold and WRs in the 1500m and the mile.
Jakob will move in front of Coe if he wins gold in the 1500m in Paris AND takes the 1500m and mile WR (he has beaten the 1500m Goat´s 2000m WR with a significant margin. And won the European championship 1500m twice; Coe hasn´t an European 1500m gold).
Have you scrutinized the links I provided above to the 100 best middle and distance runners threads?
I appreciate you providing those links but I don't have the depth of interest you have in ascertaining the 100 best middle and distance runners.
In response to your first point above, I would say that it isn't possible to find an athlete who has excelled from the 800m to the marathon, so that would rule out that breadth of range from deciding who is the GOAT. However, your selection of contenders over a range of specific distances is a credible one. I might suggest there are several contenders in the md.
Nonetheless, there are two factors that must inevitably shape the conversation about the GOAT. One is the advent of professional running and the second is the greatly increased prevalence of doping. Both have significantly changed the sport - and at much the same time.
Ultimately, the choice of those whom we consider the greatest will be a judgement call, as we will give different weighting to different achievements in different eras. Each champion must be evaluated in the context of the period they were competing in. Recognising that, we can see there have been many great runners in the sport, who achieved great feats in the eras they competed in and inspired the imaginations of those who saw or followed them. It is part of the richness of human achievement in any field that it hasn't been the province of only one supreme talent; there have been many. We are fortunate that is so. Accordingly, I find it a somewhat adolescent claim by Jakob that he sees himself exceeding everyone who has excelled in the sport - or ever will. Humility isn't part of his makeup. He may be forced to learn it.
This post was edited 56 seconds after it was posted.
1. Nothing in Armstronglivs posts gives association to drunkenness.
2. There’s nothing wrong in being a “70 year old man”.
3. I myself have disagreed a lot with Armstronglivs in multiple threads -not a single time has he insulted me.
4. You repeatability use words like “dumb” in your posts, and hidden behind (possibly multiple) unregistered handle (s) -are you surprised by the problems in having “a civilised conversation” given your style here..?
Have you just read this thread? I stated facts, pure facts. Everything has to explained to him ten times. Than he changes everything what you have said if he doesn't like the fact. Do you understand this?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a serious discussion with him if he doesn't LIKE the presented facts. Just one example of countless ones in this forum: I told him that Herb Elliott has lost many times outside of his main distance 1500m/Mile. A fact. He lost in 1958. He lost in 1959 a year where he didn't even competed internationally. He lost many times in 1960, the year of his Olympic title. He doesn't like those facts. Then he calls me a liar because Elliott never has lost a 1500m/Mile as a senior runner - when it was told him ten times that Elliott has lost over 800m/880y, 1000m, 2 Miles. Everybody knows - and it was discussed earlier in this thread many times - that Elliott has not lost over 1500m/Mile as a senior. It's going always exactly like this. For sure one possibility for this unbelievable behaviour might be that he is drunk. Or some sort of mental illness. Or just his unbelievable bad character which didn't allow him just to agree to facts which are against his agenda. He has called me bad names over and over again in this forum - just for stating facts. Not some sort of opinion on something, facts. Sometimes he acts so dumb that it is hurting for any rational and objective reader.
And for sure you can ask for GOAT distance runner (I think for Ingebrigtsen it's 1500m and up whereas usually it's 800m and up - but this will not change a lot). Currently for most it's Bekele with his great achievements from 1500m to Marathon. Close to him for me is Gebrselassie with a World indoor title at 1500m and two Marathon WRs (and all their achievements in between). El Guerrouj totally dominated the 1500m/Mile, but his achievements in other events for me doesn't make him a true challenger of the other two - despite a 5000m Olympic Gold. Others might think differently. There never can be a clear measure. Something like this never can be some sort of official title, it's a fun game from fans. Can Ingebrigtsen become the GOAT distance runner? For sure, with his wonderful achievements up to age 22, he has a serious chance. Also very, very difficult. Even for a single event, in most cases there can't be a ultimate answer. Rudisha in the 800m? Yes, I also would say so. But Coe and Kipketer at their very best were - for me slightly better than him. What to do that Kipketer was denied his 95% chance in Atlanta? And now? Please read the unbelievable comments of Armstronglivs just in this thread. He should have banned years ago.
Of course you would think that. It is intolerable to you that you are disagreed with. Your arguments are also nonsense.
The only way for you to SURVIVE: changing the subject. That Elliott has lost around ten times in the years 1958 - 1960 is a FACT, dumb. You can disagree that 2+2=4 - and you would if it supports Ingebrigtsen.
Have you just read this thread? I stated facts, pure facts. Everything has to explained to him ten times. Than he changes everything what you have said if he doesn't like the fact. Do you understand this?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a serious discussion with him if he doesn't LIKE the presented facts. Just one example of countless ones in this forum: I told him that Herb Elliott has lost many times outside of his main distance 1500m/Mile. A fact. He lost in 1958. He lost in 1959 a year where he didn't even competed internationally. He lost many times in 1960, the year of his Olympic title. He doesn't like those facts. Then he calls me a liar because Elliott never has lost a 1500m/Mile as a senior runner - when it was told him ten times that Elliott has lost over 800m/880y, 1000m, 2 Miles. Everybody knows - and it was discussed earlier in this thread many times - that Elliott has not lost over 1500m/Mile as a senior. It's going always exactly like this. For sure one possibility for this unbelievable behaviour might be that he is drunk. Or some sort of mental illness. Or just his unbelievable bad character which didn't allow him just to agree to facts which are against his agenda. He has called me bad names over and over again in this forum - just for stating facts. Not some sort of opinion on something, facts. Sometimes he acts so dumb that it is hurting for any rational and objective reader.
And for sure you can ask for GOAT distance runner (I think for Ingebrigtsen it's 1500m and up whereas usually it's 800m and up - but this will not change a lot). Currently for most it's Bekele with his great achievements from 1500m to Marathon. Close to him for me is Gebrselassie with a World indoor title at 1500m and two Marathon WRs (and all their achievements in between). El Guerrouj totally dominated the 1500m/Mile, but his achievements in other events for me doesn't make him a true challenger of the other two - despite a 5000m Olympic Gold. Others might think differently. There never can be a clear measure. Something like this never can be some sort of official title, it's a fun game from fans. Can Ingebrigtsen become the GOAT distance runner? For sure, with his wonderful achievements up to age 22, he has a serious chance. Also very, very difficult. Even for a single event, in most cases there can't be a ultimate answer. Rudisha in the 800m? Yes, I also would say so. But Coe and Kipketer at their very best were - for me slightly better than him. What to do that Kipketer was denied his 95% chance in Atlanta? And now? Please read the unbelievable comments of Armstronglivs just in this thread. He should have banned years ago.
Listen -you seem to make a coherent and good argument for the possibility of Jakob as the Goat sometime in the future. And as you know I am an Ingebrigtsen fan, who think he might be Goat material. So there we somewhat side against Armstronglivs…
But the fact is, IMO, that Armstronglivs makes a good argument for Herb Elliott as superior to Jakob. You (and I) could of course say that the competition back then was weaker, and that Elliott only was on the top a couple of years, and only in one event, and got regularly beaten in off events, but Armstronglivs’ stress of the importance of being the very best (meaning WR, globally unbeaten in the champs) is super valid! And Elliott’s Olympic games win out performs Jakob’s with a huge margin (him with Cheruiyot as a pacer -nevertheless 2.33 sec behind the WR!) -Not at the same level…
I may put too much into Elliott’s WR run. But time wise the 1500m is Jakob’s best event (apart from the off events 2000m / two mile), and here he is clearly inferior to Elliott. That doesn’t mean he has to run 3.24 to be the Goat; it just means that he eventually needs a different main event (5/10000m f.ex) where he can set a WR with good margin…
The problem isn’t your reasoning. The problem is that you think you can force another poster to mean the same as yourself. -You cannot! (You said you have told Armstronglivs the same things about 15 times. Well -after 3-4 times we just move on; that’s how life is for all of us. -Armstronglivs has f.rx tried multiple times to convince me of his view on doping prevalence among the top elite, but I’m quite deaf. -I have to find out by myself…
The only way for you to SURVIVE: changing the subject. That Elliott has lost around ten times in the years 1958 - 1960 is a FACT, dumb. You can disagree that 2+2=4 - and you would if it supports Ingebrigtsen.
Elliott didn't. He almost never raced outside his specialty distance. But his losing over a 440 - that shows how desperate you are. He never lost over his specialty distances. Jakob has - and in championship finals. Furthermore, Elliott destroyed the world records for those distances in his era - Jakob hasn't got those records - and Elliott's margin of victory at the Olympics, where he broke his own world record, remains one of the greatest in Olympic history for that distance. Jakob can only aspire to that; he has yet to match it, in any way.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
Have you just read this thread? I stated facts, pure facts. Everything has to explained to him ten times. Than he changes everything what you have said if he doesn't like the fact. Do you understand this?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a serious discussion with him if he doesn't LIKE the presented facts. Just one example of countless ones in this forum: I told him that Herb Elliott has lost many times outside of his main distance 1500m/Mile. A fact. He lost in 1958. He lost in 1959 a year where he didn't even competed internationally. He lost many times in 1960, the year of his Olympic title. He doesn't like those facts. Then he calls me a liar because Elliott never has lost a 1500m/Mile as a senior runner - when it was told him ten times that Elliott has lost over 800m/880y, 1000m, 2 Miles. Everybody knows - and it was discussed earlier in this thread many times - that Elliott has not lost over 1500m/Mile as a senior. It's going always exactly like this. For sure one possibility for this unbelievable behaviour might be that he is drunk. Or some sort of mental illness. Or just his unbelievable bad character which didn't allow him just to agree to facts which are against his agenda. He has called me bad names over and over again in this forum - just for stating facts. Not some sort of opinion on something, facts. Sometimes he acts so dumb that it is hurting for any rational and objective reader.
And for sure you can ask for GOAT distance runner (I think for Ingebrigtsen it's 1500m and up whereas usually it's 800m and up - but this will not change a lot). Currently for most it's Bekele with his great achievements from 1500m to Marathon. Close to him for me is Gebrselassie with a World indoor title at 1500m and two Marathon WRs (and all their achievements in between). El Guerrouj totally dominated the 1500m/Mile, but his achievements in other events for me doesn't make him a true challenger of the other two - despite a 5000m Olympic Gold. Others might think differently. There never can be a clear measure. Something like this never can be some sort of official title, it's a fun game from fans. Can Ingebrigtsen become the GOAT distance runner? For sure, with his wonderful achievements up to age 22, he has a serious chance. Also very, very difficult. Even for a single event, in most cases there can't be a ultimate answer. Rudisha in the 800m? Yes, I also would say so. But Coe and Kipketer at their very best were - for me slightly better than him. What to do that Kipketer was denied his 95% chance in Atlanta? And now? Please read the unbelievable comments of Armstronglivs just in this thread. He should have banned years ago.
Listen -you seem to make a coherent and good argument for the possibility of Jakob as the Goat sometime in the future. And as you know I am an Ingebrigtsen fan, who think he might be Goat material. So there we somewhat side against Armstronglivs…
But the fact is, IMO, that Armstronglivs makes a good argument for Herb Elliott as superior to Jakob. You (and I) could of course say that the competition back then was weaker, and that Elliott only was on the top a couple of years, and only in one event, and got regularly beaten in off events, but Armstronglivs’ stress of the importance of being the very best (meaning WR, globally unbeaten in the champs) is super valid! And Elliott’s Olympic games win out performs Jakob’s with a huge margin (him with Cheruiyot as a pacer -nevertheless 2.33 sec behind the WR!) -Not at the same level…
I may put too much into Elliott’s WR run. But time wise the 1500m is Jakob’s best event (apart from the off events 2000m / two mile), and here he is clearly inferior to Elliott. That doesn’t mean he has to run 3.24 to be the Goat; it just means that he eventually needs a different main event (5/10000m f.ex) where he can set a WR with good margin…
The problem isn’t your reasoning. The problem is that you think you can force another poster to mean the same as yourself. -You cannot! (You said you have told Armstronglivs the same things about 15 times. Well -after 3-4 times we just move on; that’s how life is for all of us. -Armstronglivs has f.rx tried multiple times to convince me of his view on doping prevalence among the top elite, but I’m quite deaf. -I have to find out by myself…
I don't mind debating with you. Your points are valid - unlike those of the opinionated clod you are responding to.
Listen -you seem to make a coherent and good argument for the possibility of Jakob as the Goat sometime in the future. And as you know I am an Ingebrigtsen fan, who think he might be Goat material. So there we somewhat side against Armstronglivs…
But the fact is, IMO, that Armstronglivs makes a good argument for Herb Elliott as superior to Jakob. You (and I) could of course say that the competition back then was weaker, and that Elliott only was on the top a couple of years, and only in one event, and got regularly beaten in off events, but Armstronglivs’ stress of the importance of being the very best (meaning WR, globally unbeaten in the champs) is super valid! And Elliott’s Olympic games win out performs Jakob’s with a huge margin (him with Cheruiyot as a pacer -nevertheless 2.33 sec behind the WR!) -Not at the same level…
I may put too much into Elliott’s WR run. But time wise the 1500m is Jakob’s best event (apart from the off events 2000m / two mile), and here he is clearly inferior to Elliott. That doesn’t mean he has to run 3.24 to be the Goat; it just means that he eventually needs a different main event (5/10000m f.ex) where he can set a WR with good margin…
The problem isn’t your reasoning. The problem is that you think you can force another poster to mean the same as yourself. -You cannot! (You said you have told Armstronglivs the same things about 15 times. Well -after 3-4 times we just move on; that’s how life is for all of us. -Armstronglivs has f.rx tried multiple times to convince me of his view on doping prevalence among the top elite, but I’m quite deaf. -I have to find out by myself…
I don't mind debating with you. Your points are valid - unlike those of the opinionated clod you are responding to.
True sign of a GOAT is to run away from cross country competitions.
I would have loved Jakob participating in Belgrade today. -Don’t be too sure he would have run away from such an opportunity (a flat Worlds xc course) if not for the injury..!
Elliott has lost at least 5 races in 1960 - you deny it without knowing anything about his racing scedule He has lost a 1000m in January in Sorrento, Australia a 880y in February at the Victorian Champs in Melbourne a 800m in March in Melbourne a 800m in August in Sydney a 880y in September in Dublin But you keep repeating that he almost never raced outside 1500m/Mile. For example, just after his Olympic triumph on his European tour, he has had at least 11 competitions, 5 in the 1500m/Mile, 6 on other distances. You repeat the same wrong stuff again and again without knowing anything about the subject, like you do again and again in hundreds of threads in this forum.wrote:
The only way for you to SURVIVE: changing the subject. That Elliott has lost around ten times in the years 1958 - 1960 is a FACT, dumb. You can disagree that 2+2=4 - and you would if it supports Ingebrigtsen.
Elliott didn't. He almost never raced outside his specialty distance. But his losing over a 440 - that shows how desperate you are. He never lost over his specialty distances. Jakob has - and in championship finals. Furthermore, Elliott destroyed the world records for those distances in his era - Jakob hasn't got those records - and Elliott's margin of victory at the Olympics, where he broke his own world record, remains one of the greatest in Olympic history for that distance. Jakob can only aspire to that; he has yet to match it, in any way.
A have never mentioned a loss over 440y, liar.
He has lost at least 5 races in 1960 - you deny it without knowing anything about his racing scedule He has lost a 1000m in January in Sorrento, Australia a 880y in February at the Victorian Champs in Melbourne a 800m in March in Melbourne a 800m in August in Sydney a 880y in September in Dublin
But you keep repeating that he almost never raced outside 1500m/Mile. For example, just after his Olympic triumph on his European tour, he has had at least 11 competitions, 5 in the 1500m/Mile, 6 on other distances. You repeat the same wrong stuff again and again without knowing anything about the subject, like you do again and again in hundreds of threads in this forum.
Have you just read this thread? I stated facts, pure facts. Everything has to explained to him ten times. Than he changes everything what you have said if he doesn't like the fact. Do you understand this?
It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a serious discussion with him if he doesn't LIKE the presented facts. Just one example of countless ones in this forum: I told him that Herb Elliott has lost many times outside of his main distance 1500m/Mile. A fact. He lost in 1958. He lost in 1959 a year where he didn't even competed internationally. He lost many times in 1960, the year of his Olympic title. He doesn't like those facts. Then he calls me a liar because Elliott never has lost a 1500m/Mile as a senior runner - when it was told him ten times that Elliott has lost over 800m/880y, 1000m, 2 Miles. Everybody knows - and it was discussed earlier in this thread many times - that Elliott has not lost over 1500m/Mile as a senior. It's going always exactly like this. For sure one possibility for this unbelievable behaviour might be that he is drunk. Or some sort of mental illness. Or just his unbelievable bad character which didn't allow him just to agree to facts which are against his agenda. He has called me bad names over and over again in this forum - just for stating facts. Not some sort of opinion on something, facts. Sometimes he acts so dumb that it is hurting for any rational and objective reader.
And for sure you can ask for GOAT distance runner (I think for Ingebrigtsen it's 1500m and up whereas usually it's 800m and up - but this will not change a lot). Currently for most it's Bekele with his great achievements from 1500m to Marathon. Close to him for me is Gebrselassie with a World indoor title at 1500m and two Marathon WRs (and all their achievements in between). El Guerrouj totally dominated the 1500m/Mile, but his achievements in other events for me doesn't make him a true challenger of the other two - despite a 5000m Olympic Gold. Others might think differently. There never can be a clear measure. Something like this never can be some sort of official title, it's a fun game from fans. Can Ingebrigtsen become the GOAT distance runner? For sure, with his wonderful achievements up to age 22, he has a serious chance. Also very, very difficult. Even for a single event, in most cases there can't be a ultimate answer. Rudisha in the 800m? Yes, I also would say so. But Coe and Kipketer at their very best were - for me slightly better than him. What to do that Kipketer was denied his 95% chance in Atlanta? And now? Please read the unbelievable comments of Armstronglivs just in this thread. He should have banned years ago.
Listen -you seem to make a coherent and good argument for the possibility of Jakob as the Goat sometime in the future. And as you know I am an Ingebrigtsen fan, who think he might be Goat material. So there we somewhat side against Armstronglivs…
But the fact is, IMO, that Armstronglivs makes a good argument for Herb Elliott as superior to Jakob. You (and I) could of course say that the competition back then was weaker, and that Elliott only was on the top a couple of years, and only in one event, and got regularly beaten in off events, but Armstronglivs’ stress of the importance of being the very best (meaning WR, globally unbeaten in the champs) is super valid! And Elliott’s Olympic games win out performs Jakob’s with a huge margin (him with Cheruiyot as a pacer -nevertheless 2.33 sec behind the WR!) -Not at the same level…
I may put too much into Elliott’s WR run. But time wise the 1500m is Jakob’s best event (apart from the off events 2000m / two mile), and here he is clearly inferior to Elliott. That doesn’t mean he has to run 3.24 to be the Goat; it just means that he eventually needs a different main event (5/10000m f.ex) where he can set a WR with good margin…
The problem isn’t your reasoning. The problem is that you think you can force another poster to mean the same as yourself. -You cannot! (You said you have told Armstronglivs the same things about 15 times. Well -after 3-4 times we just move on; that’s how life is for all of us. -Armstronglivs has f.rx tried multiple times to convince me of his view on doping prevalence among the top elite, but I’m quite deaf. -I have to find out by myself…
I didn't know that you are an Ingebrigtsen fan, and I don't care, it shouldn't have any effect on his chances to become GOAT distance runner. I'm the opposite of an Ingebrigtsen fan, and I still can see what he has achieved up to age 22 (fantastic WRs over 2000m, 2 Miles, 3 Global outdoor titles, 2 Global outdoor silvers, 1 global indoor silver, a enormous record number of European titles, 3rd or 4th fastest in history over 1500m, Mile, 3000m, top time over 5000m. At age 22.
Elliott is completely irrelevant for this whole subject. He definitely is not within top 20 of all-time distance runners. Also for the debate if Ingebrigtsen is the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5000m (which came up on page 6 in this thread) he is not a real candidate.
Elliott has had 2 (two!) seasons (58, 60) where he raced against the best in the world (in 57 also against top runners from Australia). In those two seasons he dominated his main distances 1500m/Mile. Outside his main distances he has many losses. All this page long "discussions" with Armstrong are just for claryfying what someone has said/not said, what the point was and so on. He changes so much that a serious debate is not possible.
You can give positive feedback to whom you ever want, If you do it for Armstrong you do it for someone who insults people again and again since years, who repeats wrong "facts" even when proved they are wrong, who never ever agreed when being wrong on something (even when it was PROVED to be wrong), someone who changes again and again the subject just to "survive" in the thread - and so on. To call him just "dumb" is very, very friendly. Just read this thread, just this thread.
He once needed something like two months (after dozens of posts) to find an Olympic champion (out of two games, really difficult) from Kenya (he denied he exists). Do you think he finally accepted that he was wrong? For sure not, he changed the subject. There are so many more examples exactly like this. He destroys thread after thread (if I jump just in thread I'm not really interested in but was looking as he does, I just see fights with other posters, I see insult after insult of him. What an unbelievable terrible person this is.
John Wesley Harding - a man who in his left finger has more knowledge about the subject than Armstrong ever will have (and even more important: tries to be not biased) - has Elliott on place 19 in his ranking of greatest distance runners. For me that's a fair ranking, for sure just a personal ranking of something which CAN'T have an ultimate answer. Elliott has stopped his career very early. So what? It's his decision. But OK, what if he would have continued his career up to Munich 72 for example (he would have been not too old: 34). What if he would have lost his dominance already in 64 (Peter Snell). What if he couldn't stand a new phenomenon like Jim Ryun. What if he just would have reached the final in Mexico without any success. What if he tried to have a good comeback for years - but finally had to accept that he couldn't make it above first round in Munich? We would not talk about him like we do now (unbeaten in his main distances). That he stopped so early even could help the way we see him now. Ranking him on place 19 - like JWH did - seems to be a fair compromise for me.
Elliott didn't. He almost never raced outside his specialty distance. But his losing over a 440 - that shows how desperate you are. He never lost over his specialty distances. Jakob has - and in championship finals. Furthermore, Elliott destroyed the world records for those distances in his era - Jakob hasn't got those records - and Elliott's margin of victory at the Olympics, where he broke his own world record, remains one of the greatest in Olympic history for that distance. Jakob can only aspire to that; he has yet to match it, in any way.
A have never mentioned a loss over 440y, liar.
He has lost at least 5 races in 1960 - you deny it without knowing anything about his racing scedule He has lost a 1000m in January in Sorrento, Australia a 880y in February at the Victorian Champs in Melbourne a 800m in March in Melbourne a 800m in August in Sydney a 880y in September in Dublin
But you keep repeating that he almost never raced outside 1500m/Mile. For example, just after his Olympic triumph on his European tour, he has had at least 11 competitions, 5 in the 1500m/Mile, 6 on other distances. You repeat the same wrong stuff again and again without knowing anything about the subject, like you do again and again in hundreds of threads in this forum.
You really are the most stupid ***** on these boards. Elliott NEVER lost at his specialty distance - that is unmatched in the sport. So you scramble around for distances that were not his specialty to find a few losses. They are irrelevant in the context of what he achieved in his career. Jakob meanwhile loses at his specialty distances. But you know everything about losing - that's your specialty.
Listen -you seem to make a coherent and good argument for the possibility of Jakob as the Goat sometime in the future. And as you know I am an Ingebrigtsen fan, who think he might be Goat material. So there we somewhat side against Armstronglivs…
But the fact is, IMO, that Armstronglivs makes a good argument for Herb Elliott as superior to Jakob. You (and I) could of course say that the competition back then was weaker, and that Elliott only was on the top a couple of years, and only in one event, and got regularly beaten in off events, but Armstronglivs’ stress of the importance of being the very best (meaning WR, globally unbeaten in the champs) is super valid! And Elliott’s Olympic games win out performs Jakob’s with a huge margin (him with Cheruiyot as a pacer -nevertheless 2.33 sec behind the WR!) -Not at the same level…
I may put too much into Elliott’s WR run. But time wise the 1500m is Jakob’s best event (apart from the off events 2000m / two mile), and here he is clearly inferior to Elliott. That doesn’t mean he has to run 3.24 to be the Goat; it just means that he eventually needs a different main event (5/10000m f.ex) where he can set a WR with good margin…
The problem isn’t your reasoning. The problem is that you think you can force another poster to mean the same as yourself. -You cannot! (You said you have told Armstronglivs the same things about 15 times. Well -after 3-4 times we just move on; that’s how life is for all of us. -Armstronglivs has f.rx tried multiple times to convince me of his view on doping prevalence among the top elite, but I’m quite deaf. -I have to find out by myself…
I didn't know that you are an Ingebrigtsen fan, and I don't care, it shouldn't have any effect on his chances to become GOAT distance runner. I'm the opposite of an Ingebrigtsen fan, and I still can see what he has achieved up to age 22 (fantastic WRs over 2000m, 2 Miles, 3 Global outdoor titles, 2 Global outdoor silvers, 1 global indoor silver, a enormous record number of European titles, 3rd or 4th fastest in history over 1500m, Mile, 3000m, top time over 5000m. At age 22.
Elliott is completely irrelevant for this whole subject. He definitely is not within top 20 of all-time distance runners. Also for the debate if Ingebrigtsen is the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5000m (which came up on page 6 in this thread) he is not a real candidate.
Elliott has had 2 (two!) seasons (58, 60) where he raced against the best in the world (in 57 also against top runners from Australia). In those two seasons he dominated his main distances 1500m/Mile. Outside his main distances he has many losses. All this page long "discussions" with Armstrong are just for claryfying what someone has said/not said, what the point was and so on. He changes so much that a serious debate is not possible.
You can give positive feedback to whom you ever want, If you do it for Armstrong you do it for someone who insults people again and again since years, who repeats wrong "facts" even when proved they are wrong, who never ever agreed when being wrong on something (even when it was PROVED to be wrong), someone who changes again and again the subject just to "survive" in the thread - and so on. To call him just "dumb" is very, very friendly. Just read this thread, just this thread.
He once needed something like two months (after dozens of posts) to find an Olympic champion (out of two games, really difficult) from Kenya (he denied he exists). Do you think he finally accepted that he was wrong? For sure not, he changed the subject. There are so many more examples exactly like this. He destroys thread after thread (if I jump just in thread I'm not really interested in but was looking as he does, I just see fights with other posters, I see insult after insult of him. What an unbelievable terrible person this is.
Elliott isn't within the top twenty? You've had a lobotomy.
John Wesley Harding - a man who in his left finger has more knowledge about the subject than Armstrong ever will have (and even more important: tries to be not biased) - has Elliott on place 19 in his ranking of greatest distance runners. For me that's a fair ranking, for sure just a personal ranking of something which CAN'T have an ultimate answer. Elliott has stopped his career very early. So what? It's his decision. But OK, what if he would have continued his career up to Munich 72 for example (he would have been not too old: 34). What if he would have lost his dominance already in 64 (Peter Snell). What if he couldn't stand a new phenomenon like Jim Ryun. What if he just would have reached the final in Mexico without any success. What if he tried to have a good comeback for years - but finally had to accept that he couldn't make it above first round in Munich? We would not talk about him like we do now (unbeaten in his main distances). That he stopped so early even could help the way we see him now. Ranking him on place 19 - like JWH did - seems to be a fair compromise for me.
All of this is simply opinion - whether it's yours or someone else you happen to agree with. But you state it as though it is a fact like the laws of gravity. Apart from demonstrating what a pompous self-absorbed ass you are it shows an inability to distinguish fact from opinion or cope with a view that you don't share. In your imagined superiority you are a textbook demonstration of the Dunning Kruger effect.
John Wesley Harding - a man who in his left finger has more knowledge about the subject than Armstrong ever will have (and even more important: tries to be not biased) - has Elliott on place 19 in his ranking of greatest distance runners. For me that's a fair ranking, for sure just a personal ranking of something which CAN'T have an ultimate answer. Elliott has stopped his career very early. So what? It's his decision. But OK, what if he would have continued his career up to Munich 72 for example (he would have been not too old: 34). What if he would have lost his dominance already in 64 (Peter Snell). What if he couldn't stand a new phenomenon like Jim Ryun. What if he just would have reached the final in Mexico without any success. What if he tried to have a good comeback for years - but finally had to accept that he couldn't make it above first round in Munich? We would not talk about him like we do now (unbeaten in his main distances). That he stopped so early even could help the way we see him now. Ranking him on place 19 - like JWH did - seems to be a fair compromise for me.
All of this is simply opinion - whether it's yours or someone else you happen to agree with. But you state it as though it is a fact like the laws of gravity. Apart from demonstrating what a pompous self-absorbed ass you are it shows an inability to distinguish fact from opinion or cope with a view that you don't share. In your imagined superiority you are a textbook demonstration of the Dunning Kruger effect.