The article was initially entiteld, "Zane Robertston!!!!" but we changed it to make it more descriptive. Here is our article on his bust and fake excuses (he said he went to a hospital for a COvid-19 vaccine but they gave him EPO instead) which points out that in 2016 he expressed frutation at the amount of doping in the sport:
You have a serious problem with numbers. I don't argue for anything, but calculate published figures. I do argue against "at least two per week" because it is pure fan-fiction.
"Just dropping this here!" wants to count all sports -- if we do that then Kenya drops outside the top-15 countries. Italy, with a similar population as Kenya, actually had 3 ADRVs per week in 2019, and about 1 per week in cycling -- both of these are far more than Kenya. What do you think about that? Surely you say the same things about Italy in cycling forums, and surely you have triple the disgust for Italians as you do Kenyans, right?
And surely you are in those cycling forums 6 hours a day arguing that the reason for so many Italian busts is they have so many world class cylists, and anyway, EPO doesn't work?
Sure, in those forums, I post as "recycler". But strangely there is not too much talk about doping among non-Africans no-name cyclists like we find here.
All that you come up with, as you argue endlessly about the numbers, is that Kenyan doping isn't really so bad after all. Neither Kenyan Athletics (and the Kenyan government, which is proposing criminalising doping) and World Athletics agree with you. Nothing you dribble on about changes the seriousness of the Kenyan situation. I am surprised you aren't expressing your "sympathy" for Kenyans experiencing an "inappropriate coach-athlete situation" - which doping is. It is so vacuous a comment - you have used it previously - as to fit anything you talk about.
As I said, I know you have a serious hatred for numbers, and apparently lose count before you can even get to 1.
Sure it is a serious -- but the question is, can you put a number on it? The right answer is unquestionably NO. You tried, and failed, quite spectacularly, and rather than being a grownup and admit your error when significantly overstating the seriousness, you desperately change the subject to anything else -- Kara, feelings, Salazar, coach-athlete, sympathy, oh look! something shiny! Come on Dory, let's swim over the trench and follow it! -- as if feeble distractions and personal attacks can mask your intellectual fails. It's quite sad to see someone as emotionally invested in doping as you obviously are be so woefully and demonstrably uninformed and gullible.
I guess by now we can at least all agree that "at least two Kenyans per week" was so stupid, even you've abandoned it, and avoid owning that you said it like the bubonic plague.
Kenyan doping is a plague and your casuistry about the exact number of busts per week doesn't change that fact. I observed the busts are like rain - but you won't call it rain until you have been supplied with the exact number of drops. It is a deluge but you stand in the middle of it and pretend you aren't getting wet.
This post was edited 44 seconds after it was posted.
All that you come up with, as you argue endlessly about the numbers, is that Kenyan doping isn't really so bad after all. Neither Kenyan Athletics (and the Kenyan government, which is proposing criminalising doping) and World Athletics agree with you. Nothing you dribble on about changes the seriousness of the Kenyan situation. I am surprised you aren't expressing your "sympathy" for Kenyans experiencing an "inappropriate coach-athlete situation" - which doping is. It is so vacuous a comment - you have used it previously - as to fit anything you talk about.
You sound like Trump. You lied, you know you lied, your lie was exposed, and instead of admitting you lied, you attack and insult the people who called you out.
Your deliberate bs and attempted obfuscation are boring me now. Jog on.
Well that's his only way to troll for responses. Best to stop responding.
Providing two more links and more complete information about the timing of these 20 suspensions is "trolling for responses"? The only response I would expect in a rational world is "Ah, I didn't realize that. You see I only looked at one article. My bad. Thanks."
As I said, I know you have a serious hatred for numbers, and apparently lose count before you can even get to 1.
Sure it is a serious -- but the question is, can you put a number on it? The right answer is unquestionably NO. You tried, and failed, quite spectacularly, and rather than being a grownup and admit your error when significantly overstating the seriousness, you desperately change the subject to anything else -- Kara, feelings, Salazar, coach-athlete, sympathy, oh look! something shiny! Come on Dory, let's swim over the trench and follow it! -- as if feeble distractions and personal attacks can mask your intellectual fails. It's quite sad to see someone as emotionally invested in doping as you obviously are be so woefully and demonstrably uninformed and gullible.
I guess by now we can at least all agree that "at least two Kenyans per week" was so stupid, even you've abandoned it, and avoid owning that you said it like the bubonic plague.
Kenyan doping is a plague and your casuistry about the exact number of busts per week doesn't change that fact. I observed the busts are like rain - but you won't call it rain until you have been supplied with the exact number of drops. It is a deluge but you stand in the middle of it and pretend you aren't getting wet.
Yes you are better with these emotional descriptions, rather than numbers.
Yes or no: Do you still stand by "at least two Kenyans are popped each week"?
Yes or no: Do you stand by your earlier claims of "one Kenyan per week"?
I fail to see where it says 'two Kenyan runners per week', distance or otherwise. Obviously you can guess that that's what he meant, but equally somebody else could guess that a lot of the posts on here are attempting to minimise the extent of doping in Kenya by changing the criteria against which it is being quantified; e.g. only athletics, or only people who are reported within a day or two of being busted, or only when the wind is blowing from the south, or only if the bust happens at the same time as 5 people jump into Chebloch Gorge in quick succession, etc.
Armstronglivs may be hard work to 'discuss' with, and has his own agenda that is the opposite of rekrunner/El Keniano, etc, but if you're going to argue against what he has said then you have to use what he has stated, not your interpretation.
If you click back to page 11, Armstronglivs wrote "at least two Kenyans are popped each week":
"I said Robertson was the first Kiwi distance runner busted for doping that I was aware of. So you found one other that I had never heard of, that, like Robertson, went to another country to dope. You have identified two New Zealand distance runners who have doped in 70 or so years. (New Zealand was also a top nation for running in the 60's and 70's). This year at least two Kenyans are popped each week. I would include Robertson amongst their tally."
Even if you want to count all sports (and now you should know that these 20 were from last year in the second half of 2022), it is not possible to justify "at least two each week".
But if the benchmark now is to count all sports, then by comparison, Kenya is not even in the top-10. The top-10 ADRVs for 2019, according to WADA, are Russia (167), Italy (157), India (152), Brazil (78), Iran (70), France (62), USA (62), Kazakhstan (49), Poland (47), and Ukraine (46).
Then #11 China (45), #12 UK (44), #13 Belgium (43), #14 South Africa (42), #15 Australia (33), #16 Spain (32)
Kenya was ranked #17, with 30 ADRVs, tied with #18 Korea (30). Italy, with a similar population, had 47 ADRVs just in cycling alone.
Why all this focus on the #17 country? Where are all these threads for all these other countries?
If we suppose "nation.africa" is right with 40 athletes for 2022, that puts them around #15.
Kenyan doping is a plague and your casuistry about the exact number of busts per week doesn't change that fact. I observed the busts are like rain - but you won't call it rain until you have been supplied with the exact number of drops. It is a deluge but you stand in the middle of it and pretend you aren't getting wet.
Yes you are better with these emotional descriptions, rather than numbers.
Yes or no: Do you still stand by "at least two Kenyans are popped each week"?
Yes or no: Do you stand by your earlier claims of "one Kenyan per week"?
I stand by my claim that Kenya is one of the worst dopers in the sport on the planet. Do you deny that?
Finally someone understands the unique Armstrong-math.
You don't know any math because you can't count any Kenyan dopers. All you see are the countless Kenyan "world record holders".
For the Kenyan dopers in 2023 so far you are probably wrong by around 400%.
Let's try to count the male Kenyan WR setters:
David Rudisha Wilson Kipketer (for Denmark) Noah Ngeny Kipchoge Keino Henry Rono Moses Kiptanui Daniel Komen Samson Kimobwa Richard Chelimo Yobes Ondieki William Sigei Paul Tergat Ben Jipcho Peter Koech Wilson B. Kipketer Bernard Barmasai Stephen Cherono (SSS, for Quatar) Joseph Kimani Sammy Kipketer Micah Kogo Leonard Komon Rhonex Kipruto Mike Musyoki Benson Masya Moses Tanui Shem Kororia Paul Kosgei Samuel Wanjiru Abraham Kiptum Geoffrey Kamworor Kibiwott Kandie Patrick Makau Wilson Kipsang Dennis Kimetto Eliud Kipchoge
I count 35. What's your number - 3? 4?
Any specific reason why you write Kenyan "world record holders" ?
Yes you are better with these emotional descriptions, rather than numbers.
Yes or no: Do you still stand by "at least two Kenyans are popped each week"?
Yes or no: Do you stand by your earlier claims of "one Kenyan per week"?
I stand by my claim that Kenya is one of the worst dopers in the sport on the planet. Do you deny that?
So I guess that's a clear "no" and "no".
To the extent that countries can be dopers, I guess being "one of the worst" depends on how many "worst" doping nations there can be. In 2019, Kenya was ranked 17th worst doping nation by WADA. That puts them in the top 10% worldwide I guess. Unfortunately it will be next year, or 2025, before we see WADA's ADRV report for 2022, but if "nation.africa's" reporting of 40 suspensions in 2022 is any indication, they will only climb slightly to around #15. Similarly, we will have to wait for the beginning of next year to see if Coe's "40% positive tests" statistic is confirmed by WADA.
It just seems like Kenya's busts are the only ones making headlines, as if the #17 ranked nation is the one that is most relevant. When each busted Kenyan athlete makes the headlines twice -- one for the suspension, and one for the sanction -- this must leave quite an impression on the most impressionable -- especially those who struggle with understanding the value of numbers and perspective.
You don't know any math because you can't count any Kenyan dopers. All you see are the countless Kenyan "world record holders".
For the Kenyan dopers in 2023 so far you are probably wrong by around 400%.
Let's try to count the male Kenyan WR setters:
David Rudisha Wilson Kipketer (for Denmark) Noah Ngeny Kipchoge Keino Henry Rono Moses Kiptanui Daniel Komen Samson Kimobwa Richard Chelimo Yobes Ondieki William Sigei Paul Tergat Ben Jipcho Peter Koech Wilson B. Kipketer Bernard Barmasai Stephen Cherono (SSS, for Quatar) Joseph Kimani Sammy Kipketer Micah Kogo Leonard Komon Rhonex Kipruto Mike Musyoki Benson Masya Moses Tanui Shem Kororia Paul Kosgei Samuel Wanjiru Abraham Kiptum Geoffrey Kamworor Kibiwott Kandie Patrick Makau Wilson Kipsang Dennis Kimetto Eliud Kipchoge
I count 35. What's your number - 3? 4?
Any specific reason why you write Kenyan "world record holders" ?
Because you fabricated the number who broke world records before 1980. You do of course realise that for every Kenyan record-holder you posted above there is a cluster of confirmed Kenyan dopers? Some of them have been world record-holders and Olympic champions. In Kenya, the two - doping and setting records - easily go together. There should be an asterisk next to every name on your list. Just like there is with the E Bloc athletes.
I stand by my claim that Kenya is one of the worst dopers in the sport on the planet. Do you deny that?
So I guess that's a clear "no" and "no".
To the extent that countries can be dopers, I guess being "one of the worst" depends on how many "worst" doping nations there can be. In 2019, Kenya was ranked 17th worst doping nation by WADA. That puts them in the top 10% worldwide I guess. Unfortunately it will be next year, or 2025, before we see WADA's ADRV report for 2022, but if "nation.africa's" reporting of 40 suspensions in 2022 is any indication, they will only climb slightly to around #15. Similarly, we will have to wait for the beginning of next year to see if Coe's "40% positive tests" statistic is confirmed by WADA.
It just seems like Kenya's busts are the only ones making headlines, as if the #17 ranked nation is the one that is most relevant. When each busted Kenyan athlete makes the headlines twice -- one for the suspension, and one for the sanction -- this must leave quite an impression on the most impressionable -- especially those who struggle with understanding the value of numbers and perspective.
My question was intended to elicit the response it received. You wouldn't have been a Kenyan apologist and doping-denier if you had answered differently.
My question was intended to elicit the response it received. You wouldn't have been a Kenyan apologist and doping-denier if you had answered differently.
Oh how clever, you distanced yourself from yourself, just so you could call me cute little names. It's like you are the mensa-master playing 4D chess.
I'm the Kenyan apologist and doping denier for copy/pasting figures from official WADA reports -- obviously the central hub of doping denying conspiracies.
I stand by my claim that Kenya is one of the worst dopers in the sport on the planet. Do you deny that?
So I guess that's a clear "no" and "no".
To the extent that countries can be dopers, I guess being "one of the worst" depends on how many "worst" doping nations there can be. In 2019, Kenya was ranked 17th worst doping nation by WADA. That puts them in the top 10% worldwide I guess. Unfortunately it will be next year, or 2025, before we see WADA's ADRV report for 2022, but if "nation.africa's" reporting of 40 suspensions in 2022 is any indication, they will only climb slightly to around #15. Similarly, we will have to wait for the beginning of next year to see if Coe's "40% positive tests" statistic is confirmed by WADA.
It just seems like Kenya's busts are the only ones making headlines, as if the #17 ranked nation is the one that is most relevant. When each busted Kenyan athlete makes the headlines twice -- one for the suspension, and one for the sanction -- this must leave quite an impression on the most impressionable -- especially those who struggle with understanding the value of numbers and perspective.
That's for all sports rekhead
How is Kenya ranked for distance running!
Your testing is still a joke in Kenya. That's why he hid out there That NZ guy has been at it for years and has only just been caught.
You struggle to understand morals and a doping apologist.
Your testing is still a joke in Kenya. That's why he hid out there That NZ guy has been at it for years and has only just been caught.
You struggle to understand morals and a doping apologist.
Do try to keep up.
Just a few pages back I was accused of downplaying Kenyan doping by NOT counting all sports -- because I said, in a running forum, that 15 Kenyan runners out of 20 Kenyans were suspended by ADAK since July 2022. Now I'm accused of doping apologies by counting all sports.
In that context, Armstronglivs also did not say Kenyan runners, but said "my claim that Kenya (sic) is one of the worst dopers in the sport on the planet."
This was after I showed, him that countries like Russia, Italy, and India were more than 5x worse, and 13 other countries were worse than Kenya, including USA, France, Belgium, South Africa and Australia.
Looks like the joke's over -- it is the increased AIU testing and AKAD testing leading to all these suspensions.
If testing was a joke before, that's kind of the fault of the testers, for doing so little testing for so many decades. WADA has existed for 23 years, and the IOC started testing in 1961, and IAAF first banned doping 95 years ago.
For the Kenyan dopers in 2023 so far you are probably wrong by around 400%.
Let's try to count the male Kenyan WR setters:
David Rudisha Wilson Kipketer (for Denmark) Noah Ngeny Kipchoge Keino Henry Rono Moses Kiptanui Daniel Komen Samson Kimobwa Richard Chelimo Yobes Ondieki William Sigei Paul Tergat Ben Jipcho Peter Koech Wilson B. Kipketer Bernard Barmasai Stephen Cherono (SSS, for Quatar) Joseph Kimani Sammy Kipketer Micah Kogo Leonard Komon Rhonex Kipruto Mike Musyoki Benson Masya Moses Tanui Shem Kororia Paul Kosgei Samuel Wanjiru Abraham Kiptum Geoffrey Kamworor Kibiwott Kandie Patrick Makau Wilson Kipsang Dennis Kimetto Eliud Kipchoge
I count 35. What's your number - 3? 4?
Any specific reason why you write Kenyan "world record holders" ?
Because you fabricated the number who broke world records before 1980. You do of course realise that for every Kenyan record-holder you posted above there is a cluster of confirmed Kenyan dopers? Some of them have been world record-holders and Olympic champions. In Kenya, the two - doping and setting records - easily go together. There should be an asterisk next to every name on your list. Just like there is with the E Bloc athletes.
I have never fabricated a single number, you liar, you notorious liar, you king of all liars.
I've correctly stated that before 1980 Kenyans have set 10 WRs. After weeks of deep researches on your side, you came up with your wonderful list of 2 Kenyan WRs before 1980 (adding the important facts that Kenyans have set no WRs in the 3 Miles and the 6 Miles before 1980 - one of your very few correct statements; also anybody should decide how helpful this is for the subject).
80% down on one occasion, 400% up on another - wrong by a factor of 5 seems to be the standard in your statistics.
You call others doping apologists for correcting wrong numbers - nothing more to know about the Armstrongliar.