Talking of TSS, I'm interested in whether the way duration/time is treated could possibly be improved, i.e. is it really linear?
All training load metrics (of which I am aware, anyway) assume so (e.g., see penultimate slide here: ), but that's really only because there isn't a good alternative.
That is, I think most would agree that the imposed stress/experienced strain increases non-linearly as a function of time. However, just how steep is that relationship? How would you determine this?
(BTW, note that this is one reason why those who get all bent out of shape over the non-additivity of TSS are barking up the wrong tree. Additivity may be a mathematically appealing property, but it doesn't really make sense physiologically.)
TRIMP is still considered to be a good index.
TSS can be easily falsified, as H2Find and me outlined earlier in this thread.
You bring back the term durability, which is individual and at the moment not fully understood. And there is not only stress, there is also recovery which is also individual. At the end of the day its an individual try and error game. Any athlete has to be observant at any time.
For this training system, if you can stand it for several weeks you know it is feasible. If you then increase the pace, e.g. at the quality sessions, the training load gets higher. No fancy index needed at all.
A lot gets posted on these boards to bag on 'double threshold' the 'norwegian model' yada yada. Call it a ham sandwich if you'd like. What all the Norwegians have shown is you can get 95% of the way there on differing focuses of Threshold/LT2 work.
Whether you are prioritizing the 400s at faster than threshold pace but sustaining threshold effort, or extending and slowing it down a bit, you get the specificity using "threshold" as a concept/fulcrum for your approach.
Pat Tiernan's old log under Marcus O Sullivan was a great guide that is scalable for the average person. Marcus used lactate to keeps things steady. A lot of good info out there by him.
In the US, get yourself a Lactate Plus, do your thresholds at 2.5-3.5.
In Europe, get yourself a Lactate Pro 2, do your threshold at 3.0-4.0.
Maximize your limited time and actually enjoy your training and the races that comes from it rather than in spite of it!
As if you can run 400s above threshold pace and be under lactates for 4 and under. Utter fallacy. This due earlier posting all kinds of different paces and he's hitting the same threshold levels? U guys have no idea what Ur doing. Blind leading the blind.
No runner in the right minds would train like this. U guys think almost a century of training and suddenly this new way is the best way?
Just go out and run like we know works. 99% of runners are correct. Push the good days if u feeling good, tempo fun and then hit a vo2 max session or Daniels interval session hard. This will make u faster by far than this Norwegian garbage fantasy stuff.
Always amusing to read old posts in this thread...
If this happens and he self-publishes rather than goes through a publisher, I'd be happy to contribute some editing time (I write professionally). Maybe others are in the same situation. I've seen a few books that would've been so much better with some careful proof reading/editing.
Beelive it or not, I've had a publisher reach out to me. But it already started in "getting me out there" and that was already enough I needed to know. That's not me. I was advised to start a YouTube channel to help sales. I just cannot think of anything worse
The idea of something self released has appeal, there's no pressure then if it's total sh*t, I don't need to do anything with it other than allow the document to gather dust.
I can see the main appeal being everything in one place and I get what people are saying. It's just committing to it. The nice part is once it's done with all the stuff clarified and collated + some new stuff, I can vanish never to be seen again ha ha
The offer of an edit is much appreciated and something I would consider.
I would just feel bad publishing a book with everything that includes everything I've done and probably using NSM in the title. Only to tell everyone in the first paragraph - there is no such thing as the NSM. I'll end up with more downvotes than a lexel CS post.
I'd also be happy to help with the edit.
To be honest, you've probably already written the book here in this thread. Some collating, sequencing and the odd rewrite here and there and you've probably got your first draft.
To be honest, you've probably already written the book here in this thread. Some collating, sequencing and the odd rewrite here and there and you've probably got your first draft.
While I haven't read every last post in this thread, I don't think everything is laid out already in here.
For example, I'd be super interested in more details on how to use intervals.icu (or similar tools) to analyse your data and (most importantly) derive conclusions for one's own training.
Because I'm assuming this sort of thing is what was done to create stuff like the "special block", to know when to race, how to taper and basically everything else, as well.
As with other such metrics, TRIMP increases linearly with duration.
By bringing up "recovery" (however that might be defined), you are conflating quantification of the stress/strain of a single workout (i.e., the input function) with how said data are utilized (i.e., the model structure).
As I pointed out during the talk I referenced, the "way forward" is in improving the latter, not the former.
IOW, in the big scheme of things I don't think that it really matters how you attempt to quantify the stress or strain of a single workout, such that worrying about it is just a distraction.
Beelive it or not, I've had a publisher reach out to me. But it already started in "getting me out there" and that was already enough I needed to know. That's not me. I was advised to start a YouTube channel to help sales. I just cannot think of anything worse
The idea of something self released has appeal, there's no pressure then if it's total sh*t, I don't need to do anything with it other than allow the document to gather dust.
I can see the main appeal being everything in one place and I get what people are saying. It's just committing to it. The nice part is once it's done with all the stuff clarified and collated + some new stuff, I can vanish never to be seen again ha ha
The offer of an edit is much appreciated and something I would consider.
I would just feel bad publishing a book with everything that includes everything I've done and probably using NSM in the title. Only to tell everyone in the first paragraph - there is no such thing as the NSM. I'll end up with more downvotes than a lexel CS post.
Just FYI, one of my prime motivations for collaborating with Hunter on TRWPM was to have "everything in one place". (If you ever compare the text of any edition to my various posts online, you'll see how I contributed very little new material.)
Re. self-publishing vs. going with a publisher: you would probably make the same amount of money either way (i.e., next-to-nothing, certainly not anywhere near enough to justify the effort), but you'll have far greater reach by going with a publisher. That's ultimately why we kept talking to publishers rather than self-publishing when the idea for TRWPM didn't gain immediate traction. After a couple of years, Renee Jardin of VeloPress decided to take a flyer on it, and I think everyone benefitted (she played an especially large role in whipping the 2nd edition into shape).
Finally, for everyone reading this thread: Sirpoc is not the first to apply various training principles from cycling to running - Steve Palladino (who went the opposite route as an athlete himself, i.e., from being an even faster marathoner to being a cyclist before retiring from competing and eventually podiatry to become a running coach) has been doing so for roughly a decade. He, too, has been encouraged to write a book, and he, too, has yet to get around to it/finish the monumental task (hence the reason support of a publishing company can be helpful). Coming from a running background originally, Steve's approach is a bit more traditional/complicated than Sirpoc's, but the "big picture" perspective is similar, i.e, focus on slowly building the physiological underpinnings of endurance performance while avoiding getting distracted (or injured) by "speed work", the desire to progress too rapidly, excess emphasis on running form/form drills, etc. So, if people are looking to broaden their understanding of training for running by looking outside what might be considered the mainstream, they may wish to read/learn about what Steve has put out there.
Just did the 4x20min session on average 4.23min/km pace. Strong finish, pretty dark session didn't feel so much hobby. 1min jog rest + 1min rest for gel intake and sports drink. Did it on a 400m track, usually do my ST sessions on treadmill, but now the snow is gone and wind was manageable.
Surprised myself because I usually run my 3x3k at 4.25-4.35 pace.
6-7 weeks ago I was doing 4x2k at around 4.35-4.40min/km
Similar situation for me last autumn. I had raced a 5k in the summer at 18:17, used the paces for that when starting NSA, was hoping for a 1:24ish HM, ended up running 1:21 off this method hardly changing paces week to week off the initial 5k race 12 or so weeks prior. To your point of being more conservative with the method, I definitely was running my easy runs too fast during that block. Specifically the long run. I found it pretty easy to run too hard when your body gets accustomed to 3 workouts a week running moderately quick. It made me pretty burnt out towards the end because of it. The last few pages of the thread have inspired me to put a speed limit on my easy runs at current 5k pace + 1:15/km.
That still seems way too fast to me.
I'm running pretty much +2:00/km for all my easy runs. (5k pace is 3:13/km, easy runs are typically 5:15/km).
I don't know how people run that close to their race paces on easy days. Does it not feel like you're pushing?
I genuinely feel as if I’m walking if I were going slower than that. It’s about what sirpoc does, and if this thread has taught us anything… if it’s good enough for him, then it’s good enough for any of us plebs.
Do the book. Id buy it. Many people will. There's already a dozen books out there I already know this would be better than, especially for a hobby jogger.
Considering some of the garbage much less knowledgeable people have shilled over the years, 15-20 bucks to have a book with everything in one place plus hopefully more of everything you have contributed would be gold. The least you deserve as something in return for what you have given a section of the running community.
You aren't talking a few books either, you would sell many thousands. This is probably the most interesting thing that's happened on Letsrun in decades.
+1 here. Pretty cynical about Letsrun in general these days but this thread just keeps on giving. It's not just the wealth of information, but the guy seems normal, doesn't take himself seriously and the journey alone should give everyone some hope being over 40 doesn't mean you can come from nowhere and start doing ridiculous things.
Put me down for a copy of the first run, If it ever happens. 15 euros for something like that to put to his beer fund is a good deal all round.
Can't disagree. Hard not to root for the guy tbh. I remember when this thread started I thought it was much of nothing. Big enough to admit I got that one wrong.
It's because it's so relatable. Most of us are older. Most past our best. Most dream of turning that around. This thread has given us the chance to try something different or dream we could turn it around in such a remarkable way thinking outside the box. It's worked for me. Somehow managed to turn back the ticking clock of time, implementing most of the information here and running in my late 40s like I was in my early 30s.
Would be stoked to have it in a book. This thread for those who actually understand it, is probably one of the best kept secrets in running today, but I'm definitely starting to hear it talked about outside LRC, Reddit, Strava. There is 3k+ on Strava alone in the group. Runners are notorious for recommending things. Even an E-book by sirpoc could probably easily reach 10k people.
It's pretty funny, usually these guys online are trying to sell us crap , yet I am probably one of many who is actually trying to encourage someone to sell us something that doesn't exist. Add that to the charm of the thread.
Great post, no sarcasm. Where do you hear it talked about outside LRC, r/advancedrunning and Strava?
What does the model look like in the base phase, while building up to the threshold?
I was reading this thread about K. Ingebrigtsen's training, , 3Q + a long run seems to be a bit much at lower mileage (40mpw). Is it needed? Would another easy run work instad? How should the model be adjusted for that mileage?
Post #1 on this thread. Whatever happened to this jma fella that started this in July of ‘23? Funny thing is that he got 26 downvotes and only 19 upvotes haha. Now here we are, almost two years and 250 pages later. Someone will have to locate him for the Netflix documentary in 20 years 😂
Why was Post #1 deleted? It was not inappropriate.
A book would be HUGE. I haven't even seen this method referenced on blogsnark either, those people follow our sport as well and there are a lot of serious runners on that subreddit. Same with tattle or GOMI.
A person who can race a 5k in 15 minutes running 1:15/km slower on easy runs is running at a much easier effort than a person who can race a 5k in 19 minutes who is also running 1:15/km slower on easy runs. You are running harder effort than Sirpoc even if your pace difference between 5k and easy is the same in absolute terms. It's not the same in relative terms.
Don't believe me? Go to the lactrace calculator and enter in 15 minutes and 19 minute for 5k and see if the recommended easy pace is the same gap from race pace. For 15 minutes, it recommends 4:30/km (a + 1:30/km difference), and for 19 minutes it's 5:38/km (+ 1:50/km difference).
That all being said, if you've been training this way for months and have been consistent, healthy and improving, then there is nothing to worry about.
interesting that the author of The Easy Interval Method (EIM), of which there is a long running LetsRun thread, has recently found someone else was selling his method. The imposter didn’t even change the words around, but was selling it word for word.
That sucks. The one thing I do think, is you can't separate sirpoc from whatever people have started to call the NSM. If someone else wrote something, without the sirpoc touch its not the same. Besides, there's a ton of extras I'm sure that goes into his thinking that hasn't been shared.
I'm very glad he didn't decide to do a YouTube channel and go off piste. A book seems very on brand though and would be excellent in my view. He posts semi regular still, so someone should point him towards taking these comments on board. No idea if the book reference was a joke or not.
Right, sirpoc didn't jump in until about page 4-6 of the thread and then shirtboy did. He just randomly threw it out there w/a tie-in to his cycling comparison and that is when it took off.
If this happens and he self-publishes rather than goes through a publisher, I'd be happy to contribute some editing time (I write professionally). Maybe others are in the same situation. I've seen a few books that would've been so much better with some careful proof reading/editing.
Sign me up as another volunteer editor/proofreader. Happy to have some conversations and work on the initial outlining and drafting, too, if that’s a holdup.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Typo, ironically enough. Trying to use this site on a phone is ridiculous.
If this happens and he self-publishes rather than goes through a publisher, I'd be happy to contribute some editing time (I write professionally). Maybe others are in the same situation. I've seen a few books that would've been so much better with some careful proof reading/editing.
Beelive it or not, I've had a publisher reach out to me. But it already started in "getting me out there" and that was already enough I needed to know. That's not me. I was advised to start a YouTube channel to help sales. I just cannot think of anything worse
The idea of something self released has appeal, there's no pressure then if it's total sh*t, I don't need to do anything with it other than allow the document to gather dust.
I can see the main appeal being everything in one place and I get what people are saying. It's just committing to it. The nice part is once it's done with all the stuff clarified and collated + some new stuff, I can vanish never to be seen again ha ha
The offer of an edit is much appreciated and something I would consider.
I would just feel bad publishing a book with everything that includes everything I've done and probably using NSM in the title. Only to tell everyone in the first paragraph - there is no such thing as the NSM. I'll end up with more downvotes than a lexel CS post.
Even still, you wouldn't receive as many downvotes as fake Voldemort! How Swede it is ;)
sirpoopy makes sense wrote: For example, I'd be super interested in more details on how to use intervals.icu (or similar tools) to analyse your data and (most importantly) derive conclusions for one's own training.
My .02 because I have been using intervals.icu and find it useful for NSA:
There is a lot of flexibility in how you configure your zones, power, HR and pace. You can even tweak them slightly for treadmill vs road running.
I have carefully identified my correct intensities for workouts/easies and configured them in intervals.icu. I use a combination of power, HR, and pace across my training depending on the scenario. For example indoor/outdoor, bad GPS signal, HR lock, HR in the heat, pushing a stroller, etc. I find them all useful in different scenarios so it helps to be able to "pick" one and normalize all workouts.
Once it bins my workouts into these intensity levels, I can easily see my time/mileage in each zone regardless of what sensor I used, by workout, week, or season. I watch this for my 20-25% LT training distribution. It's come in handy to make sure I am hitting my workouts at the right intensity, or to adapt to life's scheduling conflicts. The UI is pretty dense but it works well when you really want to dig in vs. just viewing stuff on your watch/phone.
There are some interesting custom metrics I follow like power/pace over HR. Something I have been intently tracking is how I'm able to run ever faster paces at the same HR. Cardiac drift over consistent efforts is another. Any of the metrics can be viewed by season. Seasons make a lot of sense in periodized training blocks, but for NSA I might use them to separate goal races so I can side-by-side compare my fitness and results during two different spans of time.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
Great post, no sarcasm. Where do you hear it talked about outside LRC, r/advancedrunning and Strava?
I've heard it on a number of podcasts, clearly guys who haven't a clue what it's all about. Also, a couple of running groups on Facebook I'm on have been chatting about NSM. In my running club, I've talked about it IRL and it's definitely a thing with our guys.
Fast forward 5 years and a book and this will all seem totally normal, this thread.
Re. self-publishing vs. going with a publisher: you would probably make the same amount of money either way (i.e., next-to-nothing, certainly not anywhere near enough to justify the effort), but you'll have far greater reach by going with a publisher. That's ultimately why we kept talking to publishers rather than self-publishing when the idea for TRWPM didn't gain immediate traction. After a couple of years, Renee Jardin of VeloPress decided to take a flyer on it, and I think everyone benefitted (she played an especially large role in whipping the 2nd edition into shape).
Not sure about this. Sirpoc, FWIW, a friend of mine is a pro athlete and self-published a training book (well three books now) and it went extremely well in terms of sales. I think having an editor was key.
If you do write the book, I hope you keep "sirpoc" somewhere in the description of the method. You almost certainly weren't going for this, but I always read it as Sir Poc, with "poc" being the Catalan word for "not very much." So it's a perfect name for someone developing a less-is-more training philosophy.