David Epstein/Pro Publica/BBC Story: Former Team Members Accuse Famed Coach Alberto Salazar of Breaking Drug Rules

Is it possible that far more evidence has been uncovered but not been made public because it's currently under investigation by the relevant authorities?

I hope so, because if you look past all the drama of the reports then there really isn't a huge amount of evidence to go on.

wejo wrote:

Clearly, there is a culture of fear with people talking anonymously.

of course there is a culture of fear, because everyone who is not a lawyer with experience and endless cash reserves really has to be afraid of a lawsuit tsunami. imagine who is involved in this story.

the whole story once again shows what is going on not only in the world of elite sports. it shows what is going on in the top of high school running as well. sad enough, it is impossible to trust in clean top performers, whereever they live or train. for example: i am always shocked how unashamed even local runners downright gorge aspirin just because they have heard of its low viscosity effect for the blood.

Just to remind everybody something from the cycling doping. When the agents with the guns and the badges start asking questions it will be a different story. The FBI agents did not have difficulty making the athletes talk but they had trouble stopping them crying so they could continue their stories. Lets see of the runners are any different...

Renato- If doping doesn't help then why would Rita do it?

Just so she can get a ban? Clearly she thought it would help right?

wejo wrote:

Renato- If doping doesn't help then why would Rita do it?

Just so she can get a ban? Clearly she thought it would help right?

People do lots of things they think might "help", it doesn't mean that the thing they do actually does "help".

FWIW, I take Mr Canova's point; EPO doping isn't a "more is better" situation, and it may well be that an altitude born and trained athlete who takes EPO might push their blood past the "sweet spot" long before performence improvement is achieved. I'd like to see evidence of this before I agree, but I'm willing to listen to someone with experience in the matter.

As you wrote in your other article the important moment is when the FBI starts questioning athletes. Without a lawyer on their side. With the possibility of prison time if they lie to a federal agent. This is what happened with the cyclists (Armstrong, etc) and with FIFA (Blatter). When this happens and I think that it is already happening, then we will hear about the Human growth hormone, testosterone, prednisolone, salbutamol, anabolic steroids, thyroxine and other medications that elite athletes take.

wejo wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

By the way, only about a third of the material recorded by Daly's team was shown in the program as a result of time constraints. Some of that went more into genuine PEDs such as EPO. Maybe if you were privy to this material, you wouldn't be so resistant to reality.

I'm not buying it. If they had evidence of EPO usage David would have written about it on ProPublica.

There was no evidence of EPO use rising to the level of what did wind up in the broadcast, and that is why it was not included. As you have noted, Epstein is the consummate professional when it comes to journalism. But I have strong reasons to believe that some of those interviewed went into some detail about blood-boosters, not just steroids and borderline drugs such as thyroxine analogs and beta-2 agonists, and that if this material does ultimately come to light, all but the mouth-breathing pollyannas on here will recognize is as another indisputable blow to the NOP's badly reeling reputation.

Rapper's Delight wrote:

lets spell it out wrote:

Rediculous

'Both Salazar and Rupp strenuously deny that the athlete has taken testosterone. In a statement Salazar said the legal supplement Testoboost had been “incorrectly recorded as ‘testosterone’ medication”, and that “the allegations were based upon false assumptions and half-truths”.'

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/03/mo-farah-training-camp-documentary-alleged-drug-use-alberto-salazar-

Testoboost contains deer antler velvet.

Deer antler velvet also contains male and female hormones, including Insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-1) - a hormone that's produced in the liver as a response to growth hormone (HGH) stimulation.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/southfacts_deerantlervelvet.htm

Neither IGF-1 nor HGH are active when taken orally. Even if said product did contain them, it would matter not.

On one of the online articles, someone speculates as to why Salazar could not have taken an oral version of testosterone so as to spare his athletes the risk of accidental exposure via a gell/lotion. Testosterone, by itself, is not active orally. There have been oral delivery systems developed for testosterone--Andriol (not to be confused with Anadrol, a potent oral anabolic steroid) and Methyltestosterone are two--but they work poorly and in the case of Methyltestosterone have toxicity problems. As a result, those who take testosterone for either "legit medical" or "performance-enhancing" reasons almost always use either a transdermal form or an injectable form. A very small number also use implantable testosterone pellets, which are essentially a very slow-acting and unpredictably-released bolus "injection"...

Something substantive to add wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

I never said EPO has no effect on Kenyan Marathon runners, I said has no effect on the top African Marathon runners (both Kenyan and Ethiopian), which is a very different thing.

Renato, surely you're aware that Rita never ran under 2:23 prior to 2012. Then she's able to run under 2:20 on two occasions, including setting the Boston course record? To me, that pretty clearly indicates that she was significantly faster while using EPO.

You claim to want a scientific discussion on this topic, so please begin by presenting some evidence that Rita could indeed run equally fast without EPO. All the evidence I've seen indicates exactly the opposite.

Good post. However it could be argued that Rita Jeptoo is over 15 mins slower than the world record for the marathon so, although she has been massively overpaid for her level of performance, she is very far from being a "top African Marathon runner" and Renato argues that EPO has no effect in this category of runners.

Mr. Magoo wrote:

wejo wrote:

I'm not buying it. If they had evidence of EPO usage David would have written about it on ProPublica.

There was no evidence of EPO use rising to the level of what did wind up in the broadcast, and that is why it was not included. As you have noted, Epstein is the consummate professional when it comes to journalism. But I have strong reasons to believe that some of those interviewed went into some detail about blood-boosters, not just steroids and borderline drugs such as thyroxine analogs and beta-2 agonists, and that if this material does ultimately come to light, all but the mouth-breathing pollyannas on here will recognize is as another indisputable blow to the NOP's badly reeling reputation.

Steroids and Testosterone will always be the #1 PED in all sports. It works. It works for all sports. Its easy to get away with. Its easier to rationalize for athletes on the fence (you still have to do the work). There's been a number of articles (one I remember from Outdoor magazine) in which the author dopes up and discuses what the results were. Reduced body fat, easier recovery, and the ability to do harder workouts.

Alan

Equalizer wrote:

Good post. However it could be argued that Rita Jeptoo is over 15 mins slower than the world record for the marathon so, although she has been massively overpaid for her level of performance, she is very far from being a "top African Marathon runner" and Renato argues that EPO has no effect in this category of runners.

both arguments are weak, grisly weak, especially the "top african marathon runner"-argument. and you know it for sure.

any need to discuss how easy it is to subvert doping controls for years in one of the most-favored nations of the world? and even more easy if an athlete is training somewhere in the boonies of africa?

People: The suspect TOLD the reporter that he was innocent and the reporter went ahead with the story anyway!

"That is inexcusable, irresponsible journalism."

runningart2004 wrote:

Steroids and Testosterone will always be the #1 PED in all sports. It works. It works for all sports. Its easy to get away with. Its easier to rationalize for athletes on the fence (you still have to do the work). There's been a number of articles (one I remember from Outdoor magazine) in which the author dopes up and discuses what the results were. Reduced body fat, easier recovery, and the ability to do harder workouts.

The magazine in question is called "Outside," and the author took EPO as well as other drugs. He started with hGH, then added testosterone cream, EPO and dexamethasone in sequence, and stated in so many words that EPO added the biggest immediate endurance gain.

If you consider distance running a sport unto itself, it is clear that "Steroids and Testosterone" are not "the #1 PED," even if a lot of distance runners do use them.

questioner of things wrote:

Link wrote:

Personally, I think Hasay leaving NOP is the key to all of this.

Where was it announces she left NOP? I thought she was just injured.

Sorry, you're right. I meant Cain.

What did we learn from last night's programme?

1) Almost certain that Wells and lots of other British sprinters from the late 1970s/early1980s used steroids. This comes as NO SURPRISE WHATSOEVER to anyone with any knowledge of the sport at that time.

2) EPO works! And it can be taken with impunity and positive tests avoided. The much vaunted biological passport does not catch people who use EPO carefully

3) Salazar pushes things to the limit; if not breaking the letter of the law he certainly breaks the spirit of it. his use of TUEs is almost certainly against the rules of the sport.

4) Rupp has a case to answer re. use of testosterone. His response in the programme did not answer it

5) No hard evidence aired that NOP is engaged in systematic doping. That is what the programme makers obviously wanted to say but clearly their lawyers advised them that there was insufficient evidence to allow them to say this at this time.

6) But this is how the case against Armstrong was built; testimony from more and more individuals in a position to know what was going on that reached such a level of evidence that Armstrong's denials no longer made any sense whatsoever and he was forced to admit his guilt. Is this what is happening with NOP/Salazar/Rupp/Farah? It is starting to look like it!

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=6537853#ixzz3c5f7hkR7

txRUNNERgirl wrote:

Update:

http://www.oregonlive.com/trackandfield/index.ssf/2015/06/accusations_rock_alberto_salaz.html

How much more does Ken Goe make as an unapologetic shill for Nike and the University of Oregon then he does as a reporter? It's kind of a shock to the mental system to read the genuinely professional work of David Epstein and then collide with this amateur-hour horseshit.

Duck and Cover wrote:

HonestNauman wrote:

Ok, answer the question I've asked several times: why is it that the only evidence Magness provided was the purported record of Rupp listing one item from a 2002 entry?

Are you serious? Magness was not supposed to see the report. It was intended for Salazar's eyes only. Magness took a photo of the one thing he saw. Salazar would have made sure Magness never saw another report. Salazar is now livid that a photo was taken unbeknownst to him.

I keep seeing a vision of Salazar motioning to the crowd and spitting at them "Are you not entertained?"

He's rationalizing all of this with the premise that in order to beat the best, you have to beat them at everything they can do in training, and that includes performance enhancing drugs. The gray area is where America was losing to the best in the world. The goal was to elevate the next level of American distance running...he found the athletes as committed to do the things he felt necessary, and helped them rationalize it. Be it, they had "natural" hormone imbalances that permitted them to use known performance enhancing substances. All while he has a crew working on finding the "next" technology in performance enhancing training measures.

I don't think that's the way Americans dreamed it necessary to return to relevance, but that seems to be the cynicists view. It is sad that there are great coaches and athletes trying to do it the conventional..."clean" way and have far less resources at their disposal.

If this is the case this probably a much bigger issue than just NOP. I would assume all Nike athletes in the US above a certain level would have access to the same Nike Doctors. Doctors who made the referrals to see other specialists to get Thyroid and testosterone.

We know for fact that Ryan Hall and Bob Kennedy as well as Rupp went to see Dr Brown and got Thyroid. Were they getting testosterone too? How many other Nike athletes have been referred by a Nike Doctor to Dr Brown? Jerry’s group as well?

Does anyone know how the Nike medical system works? How many doctors do they have? Who has access to them? Does Nike pay Dr Brown and were / are more than one Nike Doctor making referrals to him?

It seems clear to me that a whole lot of Pros are dirty and this extends far beyond NOP and is a much bigger issue of Nike encouraging athletes to cheat. Nike has a large amount of power in Track and field in the USA. Nike does not seem to care if athletes fail tests and continues to sponsor them. Nike is abusing its power and the system. They don’t care how their athletes win as long as they do. Keep sponsoring Justin Gatlin but drop Jo Pavey.

Then there is the issue of a testing system which is completely inadequate to cut out cheating, the issue of the report with all the failed biological passport tests with all the Africans on it as well as many other nationalities, the Russian situation, Jamaican and American Sprinters failing tests, British athletes being offered thyroid medication (probably after they started working with Al Sal in 2011). When will it all stop?

I have lost all faith in the sport at an elite level. I believe most guys competing at the front end of major pro meets are dirty. Hopefully this will not just be a case of using NOP as a scape goat and stopping there. Clearly the sport has much bigger problems than just NOP. Saying NOP cost others medals by cheating is probably true but who would have got the medals? Probably other cheats. A sad state of affairs.